Regarding Vallalar's Teaching

Namaste,

I would like to know whether Vallalar's teaching is accepted

as Advaitic or not. His history at www.vallalar.org says that he

merged with the absolute/light/god. The above website has his work

ThiruArutpa, some english articles and lots of songs (in Tamil) that

can be downloaded freely.

Please throw some light on this, if you are familiar with his

teachings.

Thanks,

perolyn

Namaste Sri Perolyn

My opinion :

Vallalar's work and teachings are on the lines of Saiva Siddhantham.

It is called Sanmarga Neri. Sanmargam has also been mentioned as one

of the aspects of saivam in Tirumular's Tirumanthiram, one of the

primary Saivite text.

(Sanmargam means Sath + Margam. Sath = Truth; Margam = way.)

I am quoting a couple of his tamil text with my translation in

English since I have only the tamil version of his works.

"Neeye Anubhavam Neeye Arivu

Neeye Karanam Neeye Kariyam

Karana Kariyangal Kadandhu

Puranap Porulai Vilanguvadhum Nee"

You are the experience. You are the intelligence. You are the cause.

You are the action. Beyond the cause and the actions, existing as

the complete is also you.

"Ennai Unakullum Unnai Enakullum Parka Mudindhadhu Pakkuvam...."

To see I in you and you in me is wisdom.

These two lines are pretty straightforward. So you might have guessed

by now if its advaitic or not. There might of course be much more

clearer lines from his work. I just picked his works in a condensed

book which I have when I saw your mail to look for appropriate

quotes from his work.

Interesting that you have said :

>

> Please throw some light on this, if you are familiar with

his

> teachings

Vallalar's mantra is 'Arutperunjothi Thaniperunkarunai' = The divine

supreme light; The unique supreme Grace. His followers worship God

as Light!

Some people say that Saiva Siddhantham is just Advaitam. I do not

think it is. The basics of saivism and its differences from the

other philosophies has been very well discussed in this web page :

http://www.heb.gov.sg/documents/ssihp.pdf

Regards

Guruprasad

> I would like to know whether Vallalar's teaching is

accepted

> as Advaitic or not. His history at www.vallalar.org says that he

> merged with the absolute/light/god. The above website has his work

Dear Perolyn:

There is a Sri Vallalar temple on the Girivalum road

that goes around Arunachala in Tiruvannamalai.

The president of the temple runs a guest house in

Tiruvannamalai called Sesha Bhavan.

I got to know the president of the temple when I was staying at his

guest house and from time to time I would visit the temple.

There is a large statue of Vallalar outside.

It is worth a visit if you ever happen to go to Tiruvannamalai.

They have nine siva-lingams there. I sponsored the sun lingam.

If you go there you can see what the L.

in Michael L. stands for. LOL.

I have not visited the web site you mentioned.

I have no interest in the Teachings of Sri Vallalar.

The story of Vallalar's bodily death is that he went into a room

and locked the door. Many witnesses saw him go into the room.

When later people went into the room, no body was there.

The disappearance of the body of Sri Vallalar is famous.

I am not going to express an opinion on if Sri Vallalar's teaching

is non-dual or not. Because to express such an opinion would be an

encouragement to an intellectual instead of an experiential approach

to ending the illusion, i.e. endless discussions occuring on the

surface of the ocean, instead of diving to the depths, thus ending

the intellect and the person who does the discussing.

Non-dual teachings are more rare than a camel with wings.

Teachings claiming to be non-dual are as common as elephants with

trunks.

Take care,

with Love,

in: Awareness watching Awareness,

Michael L.

advaitin, "perolyn" <perolyn> wrote:

> Namaste,

> I would like to know whether Vallalar's teaching is accepted

> as Advaitic or not. His history at www.vallalar.org says that he

> merged with the absolute/light/god. The above website has his work

> ThiruArutpa, some english articles and lots of songs (in Tamil)

that

> can be downloaded freely.

>

> Please throw some light on this, if you are familiar with

his

> teachings.

>

> Thanks,

> perolyn

Namaste,

Actually the Saiva Siddhantins also call their Siddhanta "Advaita

Siddhanta". Only that they interpret the word Advaita differently from

Advaita Vedanta. There are many differences between Saiva Siddhanta and

Advaita Vedanta. Saiva Siddhantins consider Advaita Vedanta as one of the

'outer schools' for not accepting the Agamas as a pramana. Saiva

Siddhantins accept both the Agamas and the Vedas as pramanas.

best regards,

K Kathirasan

>

> v_vedanti [sMTP:v_vedanti]

> Saturday, July 12, 2003 2:24 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Regarding Vallalar's Teaching

>

> Namaste Sri Perolyn

> My opinion :

> Vallalar's work and teachings are on the lines of Saiva Siddhantham.

> It is called Sanmarga Neri. Sanmargam has also been mentioned as one

> of the aspects of saivam in Tirumular's Tirumanthiram, one of the

> primary Saivite text.

> (Sanmargam means Sath + Margam. Sath = Truth; Margam = way.)

>

> I am quoting a couple of his tamil text with my translation in

> English since I have only the tamil version of his works.

>

> "Neeye Anubhavam Neeye Arivu

> Neeye Karanam Neeye Kariyam

> Karana Kariyangal Kadandhu

> Puranap Porulai Vilanguvadhum Nee"

>

> You are the experience. You are the intelligence. You are the cause.

> You are the action. Beyond the cause and the actions, existing as

> the complete is also you.

>

> "Ennai Unakullum Unnai Enakullum Parka Mudindhadhu Pakkuvam...."

>

> To see I in you and you in me is wisdom.

>

> These two lines are pretty straightforward. So you might have guessed

> by now if its advaitic or not. There might of course be much more

> clearer lines from his work. I just picked his works in a condensed

> book which I have when I saw your mail to look for appropriate

> quotes from his work.

>

> Interesting that you have said :

> >

> > Please throw some light on this, if you are familiar with

> his

> > teachings

>

> Vallalar's mantra is 'Arutperunjothi Thaniperunkarunai' = The divine

> supreme light; The unique supreme Grace. His followers worship God

> as Light!

>

> Some people say that Saiva Siddhantham is just Advaitam. I do not

> think it is. The basics of saivism and its differences from the

> other philosophies has been very well discussed in this web page :

> http://www.heb.gov.sg/documents/ssihp.pdf

>

> Regards

> Guruprasad

>

> > I would like to know whether Vallalar's teaching is

> accepted

> > as Advaitic or not. His history at www.vallalar.org says that he

> > merged with the absolute/light/god. The above website has his work

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

Namste kathirasanji,

" -

K Kathirasan NCS

There are many differences between Saiva Siddhanta and

Advaita Vedanta. Saiva Siddhantins consider Advaita Vedanta as one of the

'outer schools' for not accepting the Agamas as a pramana. Saiva

Siddhantins accept both the Agamas and the Vedas as pramanas. "

Agama means tradition. Veda-s is part of tradition, isnt it? Then how come the

distinction?

Please clear my doubt.

Namaste Ranjeevji,

Here the Agamas are the Shaiva Agamas which are 28 in number. They are also

given the status of Shruti. Hence the distinction.

best regards,

K Kathirasan

>

> Ranjeet Sankar [sMTP:thefinalsearch]

> Monday, July 14, 2003 1:00 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Re: Regarding Vallalar's Teaching

>

> Namste kathirasanji,

>

> " -

> K Kathirasan NCS

> There are many differences between Saiva Siddhanta and

> Advaita Vedanta. Saiva Siddhantins consider Advaita Vedanta as one of

> the

> 'outer schools' for not accepting the Agamas as a pramana. Saiva

> Siddhantins accept both the Agamas and the Vedas as pramanas. "

>

> Agama means tradition. Veda-s is part of tradition, isnt it? Then how

> come the distinction?

> Please clear my doubt.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

Namaste:

These comments are in addition to Sri Kathirasan's excellent remarks

on this topic.

The Saiva Siddhantam was orginated in Tamil Nadu with the emergence

of 63 Nayanmars (Shiva worshipping sages). The Bhakti movement (800

AD to 1700 AD) was quite extensive and consists of Shiva, Vishnu and

other Ishtadevatas. The Shiva worship using the 28 agamas and Vishnu

worship with the adoptation of the (Nalayira DivyaPrabhandams -

fourthousands verses praising the glories of Narayana) are quite

significant. The agamas and Divyaprabhandams are considered as

the 'Tamil Vedas' by the Tamil Bhaktas. The greatest of the devotees

of Shiva are called the Naynamars and they are 63 in number and they

are the authors to the agamas. The famous ones are Taymanavar,

Manickavasagar, Jnanasambandhar, etc. The great devotees of Vishnu

are known as the Alwars who are the authors of the prabhandams.

Andal, Nammalvar, Periyalwar, Kulasekaraalwar, etc are the most

famous among the Alwars.

The agamas and prabhandams are respectively verses in praise of Shiva

and Vishnu respectively. But these verses come from the hearts of the

true devotees who totally surrendered their ego. They are great Tamil

literary works greatly cherished by the Tamil scholars. Most of them

readily available in the Internet for interested readers. They are

all poems written in simple Tamil but with a great depth of devotion

and philosophy.

ThAyumAnavar postulated the hypothesis of "advaitha SitthAn^tham"

which he considered as was more universal and aimed at bridging the

gap between VEdhAn^tham and SitthAn^tham. Sage Tayumanavar was a

respected scholar in both Sanskrit and Tamil, Tayumanavar was

minister to a king in Trichinopoly. When he became god-minded, he

went over to Rameswaram, and then from place to place, preaching

Saiva Siddhanta philosophy and Siva worship. His songs are full of

the divine bliss which he enjoyed in abundance. The songs, on the

theme of the Atma craving for the union with the Paramatma, are

famous for their simplicity. He is also known for his unceasing

emphasis on the unity of all paths to God and of all religions, and

in particular, on the unity of Vedanta and Saiva Siddhanta.

I strongly recommend the following site to those who want read more

on Tayumanavar's works. An example poem is stated below as an example

to illustrate the unity of Bhakti and Jnana!

Site with Hymns of Thayumanavar:

http://www.mountainman.com.au/thayumanavar/

The Site starts with an Introduction with a verse from KathaUpanishads

=================================================

The Self is not realized through instruction,

nor by intellectual power,

nor by much hearing

.. It can be reached only

by the one whom the Self chooses.

To him the Self reveals its form.

He who has not renounced evil ways,

who is not at peace,

who cannot concentrate,

whose mind is not composed

cannot reach the Self,

even by right knowledge.

Krishna Yajur Veda,

Katha Upanishad 1.2.24-25

===============================

Translation of Taynamanvar's Tamil poem in English: (I have read many

of Tayumanavar's works in Tamil and this translation taken from the

quoted site is pretty good)

What is it, which is

Uncircumscribed Effulgence,

Perfect Bliss,

Divine-Love Filled --

What is it, which willed

To contain the countless universes

In boundless space

And there flourishes as Life of life, -

What is it, which stood

Transcending thought and word,

What is it, which remained

As the ever contentious object

Of countless faiths claiming,

''This, my God,'' ''This, our God''--

What is it, which exists as

Omnipresent,

Omnipotent

Love-filled

and Eternal -

What is it, which knows

No limits of

Night and day -

That indeed is what is agreeable to thought,

That indeed is what fills all space in silentness.

That indeed is what we in meekness worship.

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...>

wrote:

> Namaste Ranjeevji,

>

> Here the Agamas are the Shaiva Agamas which are 28 in number. They

are also

> given the status of Shruti. Hence the distinction.

>

> best regards,

> K Kathirasan

(Nalayira DivyaPrabhandams - fourthousands verses praising the glories of

Narayana)

praNAm prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Can I have the URL for the above prabhuji as one of my friends telling me

about divya prabhandham y'day.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

Namaste:

URL: http://www.divyaprabandam.com/

regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> (Nalayira DivyaPrabhandams - fourthousands verses praising the

glories of

> Narayana)

>

> praNAm prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> Can I have the URL for the above prabhuji as one of my friends

telling me

> about divya prabhandham y'day.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

Namaste Kathirasan ji,

Forgive my Ignorance. What are Agamas? Many thanks and regards,

Venkat - M

K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir wrote:

Namaste,

......... Saiva Siddhantins consider Advaita Vedanta as one of the

'outer schools' for not accepting the Agamas as a pramana. Saiva

Siddhantins accept both the Agamas and the Vedas as pramanas.

best regards,

K Kathirasan

Plus - For a better Internet experience

Namaste:

A more complete discussion on Shiva Siddhantam is available at the

site with the URL

http://siddhanta.shaivam.org/introduc.html

The site describes everything that one needs to know about the

Siddhantham and details about the associated scriptures - Agamas.

A rich collection of Tamil Literatures are available at the URL:

http://dcwww.epfl.ch/icp/ICP-2/KK/tamil4.html

Most of the Agamas and also nalayira Divyaprabhandam are available in

this site for downloading.

The list had conducted previous discussions on Shiva Siddhantham and

also the Bhakti movement few times before.

Here is one reference:

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m9249.html

We also had few postings from Thirumari during February and March

2001. Those interested should check the archives.

regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, S Venkatraman <svenkat52> wrote:

> Namaste Kathirasan ji,

>

> Forgive my Ignorance. What are Agamas? Many thanks and regards,

>

> Venkat - M

>

Namaste:

Here is an interesting article in praise of Valllar's poems:

URL:http://www.levity.com/alchemy/ramaling.html

A Single Flame's Light:Reflections on the Poetry of Ramalingar

An Introduction to the poet-saint's works. by Layne Little

regards,

Ram Chandran

Namaste Vaidyanathji,

Firstly we have to understand that the Agamas have been the least translated

and studied works among the many scriptures in Sanatana Dharma. This is

partly the reason why many don't know much about the Agamic tradition. I

believe Arthur Avalon or John Woodroffe has been the only scholar who has

written many english books on the Agamas, particularly the Shakta Agamas.

To some Vedas alone are Shruti (revealed texts). To some others Shruti is

both the Vedas and Agamas. And to others, esp those who are Shaivas,

Vaishnavas & Shaktas, the Agamas are the Shruti. The Agamas are generally

classified as also vaidika (not antagonistic to the Vedas) and avaidika

(antagonistic to the Vedas). If I am not wrong, Temple rituals are more

explicit in the Upa-Agamas than the Agamas. The Agamas are in Sanskrit but

they are not recorded in the Devanagari script but in the much older Grantha

script (to know more about the scripts, pls visit:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/sa_ws.html). The Shaiva Agamas lay the

philosophical foundation for most Shaiva schools of thought. Likewise the

Vaishnava Agamas for the Vaishnavas and the Shakta Agamas for the Shaktas.

The Agamas lay the foundation for the doctrines expounded later by the

acharyas of each tradition. Apart from the Agamas, the various traditions

also give importance to the recorded utterances of Jnanis. The Siva

Siddhantins call their corpus of recorded utterances as Thirumurais (in

Tamil) and the Sri Vaishnavas have the Divya Prabantham (also in Tamil).

>From my studies, I discovered that there are 2 parallel traditions in

Sanatana Dharma. One is the Vedic and the other Agamic. Most often than not,

many scholars have ignored the Agamic traditions and portrayed Sanatana

Dharma as purely Vedic. And it is also a popular myth that the Agamic

traditions belonged to the Southern Indians. It is wrong because Kashmir

Shaivism also draws its authority from the Agamas (which are also called

Tantras).

Ramana Maharishi has also given a commentary on the Devikalottara Upa-Agama

of the Shaiva tradition.

best regards,

K Kathirasan

>

> vaidyanathiyer [sMTP:vaidyanathiyer]

> Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:46 PM

> advaitin

> Fw: [meykandar] Fwd: Re: Regarding Vallalar's

> Teaching

>

> sir,

>

> i have one doubt. i thought that agamas are a rituals or a way of

> worship of lord shiva. like in shiva temples they follow poojas

> within a set of agama. where as in vishnu temples they follow the

> rituals laid down by sri ramanujar.

> the conflict arose only when only shiva was worshiped by agamas and

> nayanmars were totally immersed in praise of shiva and forgot vishnu.

> with the advent of alwars who were vishnu devotees and the emergence

> of vishitadvaitam by ramanujar,the protection of saiva treditions

> were taken over by adeenams.inspite of adishankara who did not

> differenciate between vishnu and shiva we had the different schools

> of thought emerging in south.this might be because of tamil poets and

> saints considered vishnu differently. but we had alwars nalayira

> divya prabandams. iam unable to make out the reasons for different

> philosophies emerging.can any one throw light on this.

>

> regards

>

> cdr bvn

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>