dravidazizu in Sanskrit

[Guest guest]

Saundaryalahari mentioning Dramida is considered an

early reference. K. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1975

p.140"In Saundaryalaharii 76 ascribed to zaGkara, Campantar

is called draviDazizu. For this tradition of "the boy-saint",

cf. also his other epithets, ALuTaiya piLLaiyAr ..."

 

However, Saundaryalahari itself may be a late text. Is it

of 15th century, or so? See Dr. Valerie Roebuck's note:

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=indology&P=R23988

 

It is interesting that Mukapancadasi also mentions draviDazisu

in a similar manner: "DraviDazizu bhuktha ksiira shesham bhavaanme".

Both Mukapanchadasi and Saundaryalahari refer to the Dravida

boy-saint who becomes the best-loved of poets after tasting the

milk of the goddess. This is the well known story of St.

Thirunjaanasambandhar who was fed by Parvathi at Siirkaazhi. There is

an annual festival called "Tiru-mulai-p-paal utsavam" to celebrate

this event. Tamil saiva literature is full of legend, Sambandhar being

fed by the goddess and, his polemics about Jainas, and Bauddhas in

100s of Tevaram bhakti poems are well known. Saiva and Vaisnava bhakti

movement led by Sambandhar et al., , centuries before Sankara,

started eliminating Jainism and Buddhism from the south. Every

Shiva temple in the south has Nayanmars statues. 100s of exquiste

baby-saint Sambandhan bronzes from Chola artists are known.

In the western museums, many a time they are wrongly marked as

baby Krishna. It's incorrect,since the boy-saint Campantan will

have his right hand finger (cuTTu viral) pointing in awe. This

refers to the Periyapuraanam episode where Sambandhan points

Uma-Sivan who fed him milk to his biological parents. It it were

to represent Krishna, the bronze will have a butter ball in

the baby's hand. Only some art historians know this detail about

Chola bronzes.

 

K. V. Raghavacharya. "A Note on the Term 'Dravida' According to

Tradition'. In Proceedings of the Fifth World Sanskrit Conference

(Varanasi, October 21-26, 1981). Ed. R N Dandekar and P D Navathe;

Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan; New Delhi (1985). Does this citation

discuss "dravidasisu" in Mukapancadasi and Saundaryalahari?

 

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=indology&P=R24205

Mr. Bijoy Misra mentions:

>The text talks of "dramilas'is'u" in v.75. The commentary

>(translation of Laksmidhara) speaks of the saivite saint

>TirujnAnasambandhara, with a legend.

 

Obviously, this is not W. N. Brown's book on Saundaryalahari,

as seen in the last line of B. Mishra's message in the above URL.

What other book(s) mentions Saundaryalahari's mention of Sambandhar,

the Tevaram saint? Lakshmidhara (16th cent.)? I think Vidya Dehejia

(Smithsonian) in her Slaves of the Lord: the paths of the Tamil saints

takes Saundaryalahari 75 as refering to Jnaanasambandhar (my copy is

on loan).

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan <naga_ganesan@h...>"

<naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

Saiva and Vaisnava bhakti

> movement led by Sambandhar et al., , centuries before Sankara,

> started eliminating Jainism and Buddhism from the south''

 

To what extant were Shaivism, Buddhism and Jainism prevalent in

the " South" before the reformist movement of Sankara.

 

 

This must have been studied, and written about.

 

Ravi

[Guest guest]

The view of Shankaracharya, the spiritual successor to Adi Sankara,

is that it refers to Adi Sankara in his book.

 

The Shankara Mutt view is that it refers to Adi Sankara himself.

 

 

 

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/08/21/stories/1321017c.htm

 

 

Discourses on the Soundaryalahari

BHAGAVADPADA SANKARA'S SOUNDARYALAHARI: An exposition by Sri

Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swamigal of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam;

Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kulapati Munshi Marg, Mumbai-400007. Rs.

600.ADI SANKARA Bhagavadpada was perhaps the world's greatest

philosopher mastermind. As a mere child, he displayed quite

astonishing powers of mind so much so that he was hailed as a child

prodigy. He mastered the Vedas and the Sastras with avidity

altogether extraordinary.

 

 

"The sage deals with the intriguing reference to "Dravida sisu'' in

the poem. He points out very gently that it could hardly be a

reference to the 6th century A.D. saint Gnanasambandar.

The reference here is to Sankara himself, who as Lakshmidara points

out as deputising for his father at the family temple to the Devi.

This is further confirmed by a hymn discovered by the scholar, Dr.

C. R. Swaminathan. "

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Ravi Chaudhary <ravi9@h...>"

<ravi9@h...> wrote:

> To what extant were Shaivism, Buddhism and Jainism prevalent in

> the " South" before the reformist movement of Sankara.

 

> This must have been studied, and written about.

>

> Ravi

 

The heterodox religions Jainism, and Buddhism were vehemently

opposed by St. Jnaanasambandhar, Appar & Thirumangai Aazhvar, ...

 

Two scholarly publications detail the Saiva polemics against

Jainas. Nayanmars and Alvars precede Sankara by centuries.

1) A. Veluppillai, "The Hindu Confrontation with the Jaina and the

Buddhist. Saint Tirunanacampantar's Polemical Writings", The Problem

of Ritual, ed. T. Ahlback ( Åbo: The Donner Institute for Research in

Religious and Cultural History, 1993), pp. 335- 364.

 

2) Indira Vishvanathan Peterson, 'Srama.nas against the Tamil way:

Jains as Others in Tamil 'Saiva literature, pp. 163-186 in Open

Boundaries: Jain communities and cultures in Indian history, ed., J.

E. Cort, SUNY, 1998.

 

Anyone reading Sankaraviajayam hagiography (done 1n 14th century

after the Muslim onslaughts into the South India) will not miss

the relationship with the earlier tamil saiva saint episodes.

Lot of what is attributed to Sankaracharya for the decline

may be a later day construct, acc. to some Indologists like

P. Hacker, H. Kulke, D. Rothermond, W. Halbfass. A small problem,

they cite, is little or lack of any contemporary evidence

from Sankara's own writings or other.

 

Regards,

N. Ganesan

 

P. Hacker (trans. W. halbfass), Philology and Confrontation,

Paul Hacker on traditional and modern Vedanta).

"These dates, taken together with the absence of epigraphic

evidence for 'SaGkara maThas before the fourteenth century, I

explain as follows: After Vijayanagara was devastated by

Muslims and a general reconstruction was required, Vidyaranya,

who was minister of the king of that empire, attempted a sort

of deliberate Hindu cultural politics [14] together with his

brother Sayana. [...] By means of legends which he

created, he [Vidyaranya] made of SaGkara, whose philosophy he

followed but who could never become popular with his elevated,

exacting thoughts, a divine folk-hero who spread his teaching

through his digvijaya ("universal conquest") all over India

like a victorious conqueror, and whom therefore the Hindu,

in his struggles with the powerful drive of Islam, could

look up to. That this teaching was the crown of all "ways

of seeing" (darzana) of the Aryas and Nastikas- so that all

other systems could at least represent partial truths, and hint

at that peak of knowledge-this too was exhibited by him: in

his "Summary of All Views"(SarvadarzanasaMgraha). Then he

went on to establish an institution.: the SaGkara maTha.

He created fictions which could hardly be contradicted, the

country having been totally devastated by Muslims. He announced

that the MaTha was established by 'SaGkara himself and had

continuously existed since then. ..."(p. 29) "If my description

of the figure of VidyAraNya is correct, he might be considered

in some sense a predecessor of Vivekananda.

For he, too, has made of 'SaGkara something quite different

from what he was earlier, and that again for purposes of

defence, this time against Christianity." (p.30)

 

Kulke and Rothermund, A history of India (1986), page 190

"Vidyaranya (whose name was Madhava before his initiation

as an ascetic) and his brother Sayana pursued a deliberate

policy of a religious and cultural revival in Southern India

after the impact of Islamic invasion. They wanted to highlight

the importance of the old Vedic texts and Brahminical codes.

Sayana's commentary on the Rigveda is regarded as the most

authoritative intrpretation of this Veda, even today.

His brother Vidyaranya emphasized Shankara's philosophy

which provided a unified ideology of Hinduism (see p. 139).

It may be that he invented the story of Shankara's great

tour of India and of the establishment of the four great

monasteries in the four corners of the country (see p. 139).

If he did not invent it, he at least saw to it would gain

universal currency ..."

[Guest guest]

> To what extant were Shaivism, Buddhism and Jainism prevalent in

> the " South" before the reformist movement of Sankara.

 

Jainism and Buddhism both held sway in Southern India for many

centuries. They were extremely popular - the five great epics of the

Tamils are all either Buddhist or Jain.

 

Many of the great Mahaayaana achaaryaas like Naagaarjuna, Dignaaga,

Dharmakirti came from Southern India (there's a theory in Indological

circles that Mahaayaana Buddhism itself initially developed in

southern India). Likewise the great Paali commentator Buddhaghosa.

 

The "Hindu" revival in Southern India, initially in the form of the

bhakti saints and later Shankaraachaarya was directly in conflict

with both the heterodox streams. The works of the revivalists is full

of polemics against the naastikaas.

 

> This must have been studied, and written about.

 

Check KA Nilakanda Shaastri's History of South India.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "V.C.Vijayaraghavan <vij@b...>" <vij@b...>

wrote:

> The view of Shankaracharya, the spiritual successor to Adi Sankara,

> is that it refers to Adi Sankara in his book.

>

> The Shankara Mutt view is that it refers to Adi Sankara himself.

>

>

 

Kanchi Mutt views Sankara as belonging to 500 BC as well.

BTW, Sambandhar is from 7th century, that's the mainstream view

first showed from inscriptions by P. Sundaram Pillai, the author

of Manonmaniyam. Both Saundaryalahari and Mukapancadasi seem to

belong to around mid 2nd millennium CE, and talk of a sain who drank

the goddess' milk. The most well known episode is that of Sambandhar.

 

(Sringeri mutt followers say Kanchi mutt has a history

from only 18th century. Cf. V. Sundaresan's writeups).

 

>

> http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/08/21/stories/1321017c.htm

>

>

> Discourses on the Soundaryalahari

> BHAGAVADPADA SANKARA'S SOUNDARYALAHARI: An exposition by Sri

> Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swamigal of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam;

> Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kulapati Munshi Marg, Mumbai-400007. Rs.

> 600.ADI SANKARA Bhagavadpada was perhaps the world's greatest

> philosopher mastermind. As a mere child, he displayed quite

> astonishing powers of mind so much so that he was hailed as a child

> prodigy. He mastered the Vedas and the Sastras with avidity

> altogether extraordinary.

>

>

> "The sage deals with the intriguing reference to "Dravida sisu'' in

> the poem. He points out very gently that it could hardly be a

> reference to the 6th century A.D. saint Gnanasambandar.

> The reference here is to Sankara himself, who as Lakshmidara points

> out as deputising for his father at the family temple to the Devi.

> This is further confirmed by a hymn discovered by the scholar, Dr.

> C. R. Swaminathan. "

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "naga_ganesan <naga_ganesan@h...>"

<naga_ganesan@h...> wrote:

> INDOLOGY, "V.C.Vijayaraghavan <vij@b...>"

<vij@b...> wrote:

> > The view of Shankaracharya, the spiritual successor to Adi

Sankara,

> > is that it refers to Adi Sankara in his book.

> >

> > The Shankara Mutt view is that it refers to Adi Sankara himself.

> >

> >

>

> Kanchi Mutt views Sankara as belonging to 500 BC as well.

> BTW, Sambandhar is from 7th century, that's the mainstream view

> first showed from inscriptions by P. Sundaram Pillai, the author

> of Manonmaniyam. Both Saundaryalahari and Mukapancadasi seem to

> belong to around mid 2nd millennium CE, and talk of a sain who drank

> the goddess' milk. The most well known episode is that of

Sambandhar.

>

> (Sringeri mutt followers say Kanchi mutt has a history

> from only 18th century. Cf. V. Sundaresan's writeups).

 

 

Mutt controversies does not have a bearing on the topic; That

Sambandhar lived in the 7th C also does not contradict the position

of Sankaracharya vis-a-vis Dravida Sisu; in other words there is no

overwhelming and unambigious reason not to believe their POV.

 

 

 

>

> >

> > http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/08/21/stories/1321017c.htm

> >

> >

> > Discourses on the Soundaryalahari

> > BHAGAVADPADA SANKARA'S SOUNDARYALAHARI: An exposition by Sri

> > Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swamigal of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam;

> > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kulapati Munshi Marg, Mumbai-400007. Rs.

> > 600.ADI SANKARA Bhagavadpada was perhaps the world's greatest

> > philosopher mastermind. As a mere child, he displayed quite

> > astonishing powers of mind so much so that he was hailed as a

child

> > prodigy. He mastered the Vedas and the Sastras with avidity

> > altogether extraordinary.

> >

> >

> > "The sage deals with the intriguing reference to "Dravida sisu''

in

> > the poem. He points out very gently that it could hardly be a

> > reference to the 6th century A.D. saint Gnanasambandar.

> > The reference here is to Sankara himself, who as Lakshmidara

points

> > out as deputising for his father at the family temple to the

Devi.

> > This is further confirmed by a hymn discovered by the scholar,

Dr.

> > C. R. Swaminathan. "

[Guest guest]

Dear Ganesan,

 

None of the earlier inscriptions of Karnataka State contain

any reference about the establishment of any advaita mutt

by Sankara .

 

Please see 'Maharajas, Mahants and Historians

- Reflections on the Historiography of Early Vijayanagara

and Sringeri" By Herman Kulke, Sections VI and VII,

in "Vijayanagara - City and Empire - New currents of Research "

edited by Anna Libera Dallapiccola in coll. with Stephanie Zingal -

Ave Lallemant and Published by Franz Steiner Verlag Wiesbaden

GMBH, in 1985, for further reference.

 

In some of the inscriptions published in Vol.VI of Epigraphica

Carnatica , the epithet "Vidyaranya-Paramparaagata" is found

before the name of the Head of the Mutt. (The Sringeri Math -

A Research Study by B. Krishnan (Madras) I Edition,1991,

The Sringeri Math - An Epigraphical Perspective, page 34.)

 

Regards

 

BGS

[Guest guest]

Most of the prominent commentators of the Saundaryalahari

(Lakshmidhara,Kaivalyananda,Kameswarasuri,Anandagiri,

Gaurishankara Bhattacharya,Nrisimhasrama and

Akhandananda) have explained the word 'Dravidasishu" as

referring to Sankara himself. Some of these commentaries

are more than three centuries old.

 

Shri.V.Rajgopal Sarma, in his book Acharya Sri Sankara's Advent

(Investigation and Decision) 1992, Varanasi, in page 49,

refers to a scholar who opines that it relates to Pravarasena,

the son of a Dramida.

 

Regards

BGS

[Guest guest]

Most of the prominent commentators of the Saundaryalahari

(Lakshmidhara,Kaivalyananda,Kameswarasuri,Anandagiri,

Gaurishankara Bhattacharya,Nrisimhasrama and

Akhandananda) have explained the word 'Dravidasishu" as

referring to Sankara himself. Some of these commentaries

are more than three centuries old.

 

Shri.V.Rajgopal Sarma, in his book Acharya Sri Sankara's Advent

(Investigation and Decision) 1992, Varanasi, in page 49,

refers to a scholar who opines that it relates to Pravarasena,

the son of a Dramida.

 

Regards

BGS

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "sivabgs <sivabgs>"

<sivabgs> wrote:

> Most of the prominent commentators of the Saundaryalahari

> (Lakshmidhara,Kaivalyananda,Kameswarasuri,Anandagiri,

> Gaurishankara Bhattacharya,Nrisimhasrama and

> Akhandananda) have explained the word 'Dravidasishu" as

> referring to Sankara himself. Some of these commentaries

> are more than three centuries old.

>

> Shri.V.Rajgopal Sarma, in his book Acharya Sri Sankara's Advent

> (Investigation and Decision) 1992, Varanasi, in page 49,

> refers to a scholar who opines that it relates to Pravarasena,

> the son of a Dramida.

>

> Regards

> BGS

 

 

 

Dear Tiru. Arooran,

 

Many a time, non-southern commentators do not get to the

legends refered in southern sanskrit poetry. The milk drinking

episode of the baby saint, Jnanasambandhar is well known

in letters and sculpture in and around TN. But someone writing

commentatry in the North just reading Saundaryalahari

may not know about this. What is interesting is the

reference to milk in the poems of both Mukapancadasi

and S.lahari.

 

Even in Kadambari commentaries, we find similar problem

of missing out the details. F. Gros has told about the

tamil Sivachariyar rites:

http://www.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctamil/2002-09/msg00044.html

 

 

Thanks for the Sringeri math article ref. Read that long

ago, will do so again.

 

anbuDan,

N. Ganesan

[Guest guest]

> (Sringeri mutt followers say Kanchi mutt has a history

> from only 18th century. Cf. V. Sundaresan's writeups).

 

Dr.W.R.Antarkar, in his research book " Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt : A Myth

or Reality ? published by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute,

Pune 411 004 (India), 2001, in pages 152-153, observes,

 

"Epigraphically also, I believe, the Copper plates by themselves are

more than sufficient to bear out the existence not merely of a Kanchi

Sankaracharya Mutt but a Kanchi Sarada Mutt also, atleast from the

13th century A.D. if we take 1291 A.D as the date of the first -

Ganda Gopala plate and from the 12th century A.D. if the date of the

said plate is 1111 A.D., up to the 17th Century A.D.

....

All this duplicity of argument is indulged in because the one

manifest and persevering motive behind it is not to get at the truth

in an objective way but to disprove the validity and existence of the

Kanchi Sankaracharya Mutt in some way or the other.

 

It is worth nothing that even the earliest grants of Vijayanagara to

Sringeri do not mention any Sankara by name or even Sringeri or the

Matha. Mr.Kuppuswamy has pointed out that out of the 35 epigraphs of

the Sringeri jagir - Stone (30) and Copper (5) -, there is no mention

of Sringeri or the Matha in the first 12, there is the mention of

Sringeri only and the name of the then Swami or Acharya in the

remaining 12... in Inscription nos.17 and 24, it has been clearly

stated just before the name of the then Acharya of the Matha

as 'Vidyaaranyaswaamigala-avaraparampaasishyarada'...

 

Lastly, it has been said already that even this much epigraphical

evidence, as is found in the case of the Kanchi Sankaracharya Mutt,

is not available in the case of the other three Amnaya Mutts and yet

no doubt about their being established by Sankara has been raised by

any one, including the Sringeri mutt."

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "sivabgs <sivabgs>"

<sivabgs> wrote:

 

> Dr.W.R.Antarkar, in his research book " Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt

> A Myth or Reality ? published by Bhandarkar Oriental Research

> Institute,

> Pune 411 004 (India), 2001, in pages 152-153, observes,

[...]

> Lastly, it has been said already that even this much epigraphical

> evidence, as is found in the case of the Kanchi Sankaracharya Mutt,

> is not available in the case of the other three Amnaya Mutts and yet

> no doubt about their being established by Sankara has been raised by

> any one, including the Sringeri mutt."

 

Apparently, Dr. Antarkar has not read Sanskritists like Kulke,

Hacker,...

Their view on Sankara mutt myths from academic publications given in:

INDOLOGY/message/2911

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "V.C.Vijayaraghavan <vij@b...>"

<vij@b...> wrote:

>

> Mutt controversies does not have a bearing on the topic; That

> Sambandhar lived in the 7th C also does not contradict the position

> of Sankaracharya vis-a-vis Dravida Sisu; in other words there is no

> overwhelming and unambigious reason not to believe their POV.

>

>

 

The main reason for delinking Sambandhar by Kanchi mutt

is the fact that they take Sankara to be living in 500 or 600 BCE.

So, how can this refer to a 7th century CE saint?

 

However, it is likely the breast-milk feeding to Jnaanasambandhar

is recorded here. 100s of Sambandhar bronzes with a milk cup in hand

do exist. A "prauDha kavi" and "dravida shishu" is mentioned in

third person in the poem.