The Meaning of Tatastha s'akti?

The Meaning of "Tatastha s'akti"?

BY: GAURAGOPALA DASA

Jul 12, USA (SUN) — The Article "Falling From the Spiritual World" by Abhay caran dasa and the comments by Radhavallabha dasa, humbly, appear to me as a complete misunderstanding of tatastha s'akti and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Can someone please tell me the real meaning of the word tatastha s'akti and the jiva soul's 'eternal' origin according to the devout teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

This is how I understand his teachings:

"So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva. Yes, I think I have understood this at least because Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that idea.

They have impersonally described tatastha to be our original state that is on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) but their understanding is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'present' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

The eternal present or the forever 'now' is found only in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka now even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

It is there in Goloka or Krsnaloka our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna as our perpetual 'svarupa' body (nitya siddha), even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

The paradox here is no one ever really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and entering the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

The only thing that has changed is one's awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu, then taking on the identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees - every living entity is represented there by their permanent 'svarupa' body (also known as the Siddha-jiva) who is them without beginning or end.

The material world, on the other hand, actually has NO 'present' at all; there is only past, future, decay, and impermanence.

The mahat-tattva is where the living entities can 'sub-consciously' project themselves and experience their own dreamed-up manifestation, created by their own thoughts and dreams.

This secondary consciousness, which cannot exist or be expressed in bodily form in Goloka, is called the baddha-jiva.

Entering the material world therefore, is not a change of bodies, but rather a change of consciousness where the baddha-jiva is given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu in the restricted realm of past and future where the repercussion is a universe that is perishable and temporary.

The 'eternal present' means exactly that, ones 'svarupa' body is always in Goloka even if one is dreaming they are in the mahat-tattva.

What is nitya baddha BODILESS consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather, a dormant state of bodiless consciousness the marginal living entities or souls, in the baddha-jiva condition, develop or attain, once they free themselves from the ethereal and biological material bodies, provided by Maha-Vishnu FROM within his mahat-tattva creation.

However, this place is also just a further dream state separate from the mahat-tattva the marginal living entity enters (as baddha-jiva dream manifestation), and is also a temporary state of consciousness one enters.

This motionless individual, inactive, dreamless, baddha-jiva consciousness within the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

.

This nitya-baddha inferior self, or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity, is actually a bodiless condition of the jiva until it is provided bodily form or a vessel for expressing their desires, provided by Maha Vishnu within his dream creation.

This nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to 'dream' of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada:

"There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entity's secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the maha-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or one's perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) that is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state (nitya-baddha).

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as one's perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords, they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha simply means the ability to choose the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva-tatastha executing its dormant free will to choose between Krsna and their own plans of existence.

When the baddha-jiva lower self enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, they can only enter the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy in our 'svarupa' body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our 'svarupa' body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna's material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada:

"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all".

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

"You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as one's eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as one's material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones 'svarupa' body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the 'eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality' that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become 'aware' of their full potential 'svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

"We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way: "There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained". "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

"You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay

"Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur:

"However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada:

"Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si-… That is called svarupa-siddhi. Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

Your fallen servant,

Gauragopala dasa ACBSP

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

“This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

The full eternal potential of the living entity is ALWAYS nitya-siddha. However, the dream secondary sub-consciousness state of the living entity, activated when one is NOT Krishna Conscious, is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This is supported by the following comment from Srila Prabhupada -

Srila Prabhupada –“When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

In fact, this state of individual consciousness we call the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is just a further dream state that is separated or liberated from the confines of the bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

The marginal living entity ‘consciously' develops their secondary baddha-jiva dream manifestation due to giving up being 'aware' of their Krsna Conscious nitya siddha body in Goloka.

However, the baddha-jiva can only develops an 'inactive' state of their consciousness only after being ‘active’ within the mahat tattva and fed up with expressing themselves through corresponding subtle (ethereal) and gross (secular) material vessels provided within the mahat tattva.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is just a further individual dream state separate from the mahat-tattva that the marginal living entity can ‘consciously’ further develop as an additional ‘imaginary reality’ their secondary baddha-jiva can further dream-up.

Even though this 'baddha jiva' consciousness is real and discribed as 10,000th the size of a tip of hair, it is actually a conscious projection state that enters the mahat tattva or later on becomes an individual spark of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary 'inactive' state of consciousness the sub conscious baddha jiva dream state imagines while forgetful of their their nitya siddha body serving their Lord and Master, Lord Krsna in Goloka.

Just as the marginal living entity projects an 'active' baddha jiva state, expressed through corresponding vessel provided within the mahat tattva. The baddha jiva can also project an ‘inactive’ individual consciousnessthat is actually non-different from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is made up of unlimited ‘dormant’ baddha-jivas all of whom have an ‘eternally original’ bodily form in Goloka

Once the baddha-jiva has achieved the difficult liberation from the mahat-tattva’s ethereal and biological vessels, and attained an unnatural motionless, inactive, dreamless, painless conscious state of a 'plain sheet of consciousness', that actually IS the impersonal state of their dormant Brahmajyoti consciousness, they foolishly believe is eternal and their origin.

They do not understand that this ‘dormant conscious state’ is also only temporary and that long, ago before that they were in the mahat tattva. And long, long, long before being in the mahat tattva, they were aware of their eternal bodily REAL self in Goloka.

So is is clearly explained here the baddha jiva will eventually fall from their inactive state of ‘impersonal Brahnajyoti consciousness’ and again can become active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation), provided with bodily vessels by Maha-Vishnu’s representatives.

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

 

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

 

They claim the jiva’s originate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Claiming that within the brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal nonsense idea that the jiva springs into existence from a dormant 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

 

They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.

They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that foolishly and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva

 

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

EXCELLENT REALIZATION. Actually this knowledge cannot be learnt in some class, it only comes through realization

Very interesting reading of the devotee's realizations on this difficult subject matter.

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy? Actually there is no argument with followers of Lord Caitanya. Just accept Prabhupada’s famous comments on the recording of the 1966 Hare Krishna Album.

His Divine Grace says – "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album 1966)

His Divine Grace further without a doubt says – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita on August 6, 1973

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about what Prabhupada has already clearly explained to us, Srila Prabhupada gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit in a letter send to his Australian devotees in 1972.

I was personally there as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada when Madhudvisa 'Swami' received that letter that resulted from a debate that happened on our Travelling Hare Krsna Bus as we toured the nation in July 1972 preaching the message of Caitanya Maha Prabhu. Some devotees were saying we have come from the impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti. Some devotees had previously heard Siddhasvarupa ‘Swami’ also preaching this idea in New Zealand and they told devotees in Sydney.

Srila Prabhupada wrote and asked Siddhasvarupa ‘Swami’ not to preach such philosophy in his Temples and he no longer did preach that way. The same thing happened on the Travelling Bus in July of 72 with Madhudvisa ‘Swami and Caru dasa, (who was also on that Bus for a short time). Both had always preached we had all come down from Krsnaloka, but were also disturbed by this discussion. So this whole debate was presented to Prabhupada. In the letter he sent us, Prabhupada first explained our original position is in Goloka from where we ‘think we fall’, he rejected the idea with originated from ‘a bare expanse of inactive consciousness’ from the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada – “"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Prabhupada explains this in other places also

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

However, knowing that his young devotees might find such deep philosophy too difficult to understand, he then goes on and explains it in this simple way as the letter he sends to us all via Madhudvisa ‘Swami’ explains –

Srila Prabhupada – “On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing.

The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

"Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in Maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic; just accept as I have taught about coming from Goloka and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy”

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

The following are the comments by His Divine Grace on our original position

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?" 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada's answer -"The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971.

Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

The fact is, our original bodily svarupa form is without beginning or end and always 'locked, sheltered and forever protected' within the realm of the ‘eternal present of Krsnaloka’, which makes our origin, eternally manifest and always in that state or moment of origin beyond the decaying effects of past and future..

In simply terms, we are always in Vaikuntha, right now we are there, but our dream of the material world is so powerful, we cannot see the TRUTH of this secret of all secrets.

The so-called 'origin of the jiva' is only realized from within our own hearts when we are free from material desires.

It is completely clear that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta defines tatastha sakti differently than all of the above posts suggest:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely

pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity for

material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not

found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed

of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are

nevertheless present within him.

The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain

indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and nondevotional

propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from

his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the

physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the

dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a

little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a

neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by

impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the

impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to

neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the

quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In

this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and

establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Brahmana and Vaishnava,

Hari-jana-khanda, p. 86-87)

Jivas are of two kinds (1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free), (2). Nitya-baddha

(eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the

Supreme God in five different functions in His eternal blissful abode, where

there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there,

never comes back here.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Vaisnavism - Real and Apparent,

"The Bondage of the Jiva")

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His

eternal Abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are

emanations from His Tatastha-shakti found between the temporal and eternal

worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two

different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into

the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down

for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Sri Caitanya's Teachings,

"Immanent and Transcendent")

It is completely clear that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta defines tatastha sakti differently than all of the above posts suggest:

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely

pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.

And before that?

There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us that seems contradictory, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents' of no past or future, these things will be seen in another way as also explained by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

Srila Prabhupada - “Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord”. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm are originally (without a beginning point) created as eternal persons with full bodily features.

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanently, without beginning or end, secure in that realm of origin.

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending Spritual World of Vaikuntha, all living entities are perpetually existing in a perpetual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their innovative home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. We are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is meant to convince the baddha-jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka.

There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us that seems contradictory, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', of no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

And what is that other way we will see thing that many say is inconceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is seeing that the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in the material world once one ‘awakens’ and becomes aware of Krsnaloka and their service to Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to Madhudvisa and devotee in Australia

As long as we all have selfish material desires to exploit the material world, this subject will always remain a mystery

And before that?

 

There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us that seems contradictory, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents' of no past or future, these things will be seen in another way as also explained by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

 

"Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His Tatastha-shakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency." (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Sri Caitanya's Teachings, "Immanent and Transcendent")

It is very clear to me, that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, just like all other Vaishnavas outside Iskcon, knows very well that tatastha sakti is a region between the Vaikuntha (eternal world) and the material (temporal) world. That is where all souls found in the material world come from. It does not get any more clear than that. None of us here fell from Vaikuntha. We all came out of undifferentiated Brahman located between the material and the spiritual worlds.

The 'fall from Eden' fairytale Prabhupada told his disciples was strictly inspirational 'snake is a a rope' tactic. Too bad so many of his disciples don't get it after more than 3 decades since his passing.

The lack of time factor means that once you make it to Vaikuntha, it will seem to you like you were there all the time.

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Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha . . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura – “When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.” Purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada's answer -"The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated”

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Prabhupada is telling his immature children that the snake is a rope.

Either that, or he is preaching something that none of the previous acharyas, including his own guru, supported.

What nonsense. No one new the essence Srila Bhatisiddhanta's Gaudiya mission than Srila Prabhupada which is proved by his achievements.

We would not be having this discusion if it was not for Srila Prabhupada. You would not know a thing about Krsna if it was not for Srila Prabhupada

The proper understanding of how we have ALL come down from Krsnaloka actually comes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur -

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta – “When he (the marginal living entity) forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.” Purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by re-establishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord”. Sri Isopanisad 13 Purport

We have fallen from Krsnaloka due to the CHOICE to do our own thing, and simultaneously forget Krishna and our own 'svarupa' body in the process.

First, there is choice, then that choice puts us 'in' Maya and we completely forget who we really are (An eternal nitya-siddha devotee of Krsna).

It is straight forward understanding, we are all originally from Krsnaloka and came to the material world in our false ego mundane dream state (baddha-jiva) some millions of years ago.

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you and me and EVERY other marginal living entity' are already there in the spiritual sky, he clarifies that by saying 'relationships with Krsna’ in Krsnaloka, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there, but our memory of who we are is presently covered by our own selfish plans and mistaken desires.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish (revive, regain, remember, re-establish). It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…

Srila Prabhupada - "So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (Anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to correctly understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha, by clearly understanding the following of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) and their 'eternal' nitya-siddha body as well as the baddha jiva's sub-conscious state is activated and enters the material creation.

The three energies of Lord Krishna are -

Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion.

It is important to understand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the Krishna's superior energy like all of the Vishnu-tattva expansions are.

The realm of the superior energy also incorporates the individual independently thinking jiva-tattva as well because they are of the nature of Superior energy in as much as they are also eternal living entities, however, they always remain independently marginal living entities or jiva tatastha.

The word tatastha IS the marginal living entity, WE are all tatastha-jiva, meaning every jiva–tattva (jiva-tatastha) can be on ‘this side’ (remembering their eternal nitya-siddha always situated in the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka) or ‘that side’ (nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the material creation or mahat tattva) due to free will and choice.

This means the choice ALWAYS exists to serve Krishna as OUR real perpetual bodily identity in Krsnaloka, or chase our mistaken desires of grandeur IN THE maha-tattva (material creation).

The concept and perception of tatastha therefore, is certainly NOT a place, region, zone, sector, expanse, but rather describes the jiva-tattva’s nature and ability to choose between two regions.

Tatastha-s’akti also means the constituency nature of all marginal living entities that collectively are eternally able to choose their own existence.

This clearly means tatastha describes the living entities capability of being, either in the ‘eternal present’ of Krsnaloka that is without the mundane time expanse of past or future. Or in the world of imagination within the past and future of mahat-tattva (MATERIAL WORLD) that has no 'present'

Marginal - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka whose bodies are always present their due to no past or future) are perpetually independent and eternally have free will to remember who they really are or dream their existence within the material creation.

This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be in-between the Superior andinferior potencies of Lord Krsna. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual devotional creation OR Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

Inferior- The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies, that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies the baddha-jiva wears.

Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY rejects the idea we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant Brahmajyoti in-between the Krsnaloka and the mahat-tattva. He says long, long, long, long before that we were with Krsna

Prabhupada says in many pkaces that originally, which means eternally in this context, "We are all originally Krsna Conscious devotionally active living entities in Radha and Krsna's perpetual pastimes in Krsnaloka".

Frankly, I am not interested in devotees who preach the nonsense impersonal Brahmajyoti viewpoint, simply because such views deny the true facts that we ORIGINALLY come down to the material world from the pastimes of Radha and Krsna in KRSNALOKA. And Prabhupada told his disciples not to preach such nonsense in his ISKCON Temples.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) is the most recent Maha Bhagavat of the Gaudiya Vaishnava parampara (disciplic succession).

Therefore Srila Prabhupada, as he is effectually known, is the bonafide representative of all those previous Acharyas whose understanding and teachings, found in his books, letters, classes and morning walks, are of the highest order and accepted as the final conclusion of sadhu, shastra and Guru authorized that represents the understanding of ALL previous Acharyas.

Srila Prabhupada’s conclusions on all points of siddhanta are non-different from the disciplic succession. In other words, if anyone can definitively tell us what the conclusion of the previous Acaryas was, it is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

In fact he was the only disciple of his Spiritual Master who successfully understood the ‘universal’ preaching mood of his Spiritual Master, clearly explaining we are not Indian, American, Australian, European, Russian, Chinese, African, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist but are spirit soul beyond all those bodily designations.

If one cannot understand the chain of disciplic succession that enables us to appreciate all the Vedas that the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition is based on, beginning with Krishna, then it is pointless for any arguing on this subject matter. The best one can do is get them to eat Krishna prasadam or food offered to Krishna and simply chant Hare Krishna.

Hare Krsna All glorious to Srila Prabhupada

What nonsense.

There is no harm in believing what your guru told you (snake is a rope). But you should not concoct new theories and fantasies about being asleep in Vaikuntha or claim that other acharyas support such concoctions.

Worse yet is calling people who believe in the shastric (Upanishadic) definition of tatastha sakti 'impersonalists' and other silly names. The idea that parishads of Lord Krsna fall from Goloka Vrindavan to engage in this material world has no basis in shastra. Neither does it ever appear in the writings of the six Goswamis or subsequent acharyas. That is why it is safe to conclude that Prabhupada preached like that to his Christian and Jewish disciples because they were familiar with the 'fall from Eden' concept.

Trying to offend my Spiritial Master or me with your conceit and drivel is not going to work. Your argument is with Prabhupada, not me.

Srila Prabhupada is the one who said we have come down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago. Lecture August 6, 1973

You remind me of the debate others were having on another thread and Beggar bagging the dream –avadis, as he called them. Eventually though he began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.

It is interesting to understand that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya and remained there in Vaikuntha within the ‘eternal present’ while their secondary self-manifestation came here to the material world to act like demons.

This does not mean their fall was not a real experience because it was, they really believed they were demons but on return to Vaikuntha their departure was no more than a moment.

If one can understand the eternal presents of Vaikuntha as well as the divided time of past, present, and future in the material world, then one can understand, by dent of bhakti and the teaching of Srila Prabhupada, how this works.

Jaya and Vijaya, as well as ever other jiva tattva in Goloka, can have numerous forms, just as Yasoda has limitless forms and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes in the mahat-tattva also, in each cosmos, there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana.

We cannot visualize this. An individual may be capable to calculate the stars in the sky or the sands on the earth, but he or she will not be able to praise the charming pastimes of Krsna.

It is a fact that the jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana in the same way as Jaya and Vijaya did, not as their eternal Svarupa body but as a secondary manifestation that ALL marginal living entities can activate if they choose to enter the material mahat-tattva.

Any liberated soul can also come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious baddha-jivas return back to their original position in Goloka and again re-establish and regain the memory of who they really are which is their eternal nitya-siddha body.

We are all everlastingly Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we have forgotten Krsna. The jiva can forget Krsna, so what does this actually mean?

It means that the jiva’s, now in the material world in their secondary manifestation, were once ‘aware’ they were serving Krsna. Actually, they still are, but have fallen out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ where their true eternal bodily form perpetually exists always engaged in Krsna's service, but now one has forgotten that service.

Some incorrectly say, due to them not understanding the concept of the ‘eternal present’, that, “Actually, this is not true, this is not how the jiva enters the material world, by coming down from Goloka as a secondary manifestation of their consciousness”. However, we now understand that this is exactly how the small minority of marginal living entities, enter the material world. Therefore their ideas and the proper understanding of tatastha-s'akti is not fully developed

Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.

The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.

In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.

So it is in this way they are eternally liberated (Always aware they are nitya-siddha) and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is Bhakti only, and they are not even cognizant to melancholy, death or fear."

Since ALL living reside in the spiritual world of eternal presents in their full devotional potential, devoid of any past or future, Maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all because she has no power in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

It is only when those minorities of jivas choose to forget Krishna and the svarupa nitya-siddha body they serve Krsna as, do they enter Maha-Vishnu’s temporary material world and come under the influence and temptations of His wife, Maya Devi.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

h Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in other Vaishnava sects may follow that misunderstanding however, it appears to me they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe the jiva's impersonal dormant origin state after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They claim the jiva’s originate from the brahmajyoti, which is living and growing claiming that within the brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal idea that the jiva springs into existence from the dormant Brahmajyoti and told his devotees NOT to preach it in his Temples'.

They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.

They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that foolishly and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

My argument is that Prabhupada told a 'snake is a rope' story to his disciples.

The case of Jaya and Vijaya has absolutely nothing to do with living entities origin. They were cursed as part of Lord's lila. They did not develop a desire to leave the Lord.

As I said, there is zero shastric support for the Vaikuntha origin theory. Every time people point it out to the sleepervadis they start bringing the 'aparadha' argument. Those who criticize your absurd theories are actually doing you a favor. Prabhpada had the right to tell such snake-rope stories to his disciples, but they do not change the GV siddhanta.

At one point in Iskcon history GBC decided by a close vote that the origin of all jivas is in Krsna and Vishnu personal leela. Since that time Iskcon myth makers are busy concocting theories to prove this was the absolute truth. Good luck!

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in other Vaishnava sects may follow that misunderstanding however, it appears to me they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe the jiva's impersonal dormant origin state after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They claim the jiva’s originate from the brahmajyoti, which is living and growing claiming that within the brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

This is precisely what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta preached, as the quotes above clearly show. This is the standard understanding in all Vaishnava sampradayas, based on the Upanishadic (sruti) descriptions. If you say that Prabhupada rejected that, than it means he rejected the teachings of his own guru on that point.

"Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His Tatastha-shakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency." (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Sri Caitanya's Teachings, "Immanent and Transcendent")

And long, long, long before all that, they were with Krsna in Goloka

The teachings of Srila Prabhupada are the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha by choosing to forget that ‘eternal body. Therefore, by dent of their selfish imagination, they enter the material creation.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura - “The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.” Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.” Tokyo on April 20, 1972

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will. There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the 1972, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body? letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”. letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.” letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka, even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually, they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal present because there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Verses in shastra cleary state, that the ones who do not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again, or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahmajyoti-Vadi friends (no fall avadis and no dream avadis) what will they do now?

And long, long, long before all that, they were with Krsna in Goloka.

The teachings of Srila Prabhupada are the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

 

Read again what BST says:

"Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His Tatastha-shakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls."

To claim that there before they were created as described here, these souls existed as Krsna's servants in Goloka is a total fabrication, completely illogical, and baseless. You concoct such things to support your pet theory. There is nothing in the shastras or in the writings of previous acharyas that support such view.

Thus we must conclude that Prabhupada inserted the 'fall from Eden' references for the sake of preaching in the West.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

the original position is the Brahmajyoti. Many mystics do exactly that: go back to Brahmajyoti only to fall down from it again.

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Krsna says in Bhagavad Gita (8.16): "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."

I believe Lord Krsna. Prabhupada must be talking about Brahmajyoti.

And he says that the origin of the soul is a bright light!

So in-conceivable!

And he says that the origin of the soul is a bright light!

 

So in-conceivable!

In case you forgot: That 'bright light' from which we come from is Krsna.

<CENTER>Chapter 14. The Yoga of the Supreme Person</CENTER>

brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also.

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by bhaktajan

And he says that the origin of the soul is a bright light!

So in-conceivable!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

In case you forgot: That 'bright light' from which we come from is Krsna.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman (the bright light) is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence (bright light), they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada – “"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition in the Brahmajyoti also known as the 'bright light'), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world.” 4.28.54

Srila Prabhupada – "In the spiritual world both, the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world". (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada – "However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada – “We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down from Vaikuntha by misusing his little independence. .., that if you become president, you are secure”. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both, the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world.

Srila Prabhupada – “However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada – “Everyone has dormant Krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual spark, atoms, molecules, or rays of sunshine in the 'bright light' or Brahmajyoti are also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada.

Here he explains that originally (And in a permanant state of originality)all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

Srila Prabhupada – “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna, the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence (bright light) of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul". Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

Srila Prabhupada – “They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada’s Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

Srila Prabhupada – “Within this effulgence (bright light) there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada – “These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada – “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna (Vigraha) is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, (Also vigraha which means eternal form) then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Srila Prabhupada – “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada – “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada – “These are the secrets of the Acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

Srila Prabhupada – “The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada – “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described. In the following quotes - ”

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.137

Then Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then went on to explain the jiva’s fall down and being covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.

Srila Prabhupada – “Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ‘the ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe”. “Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142

Srila Prabhupada – “The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kṛṣṇa says:] ‘Among minute particles, I am the living entity.“ Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particles within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky.

This consciousness projection is not like the impersonal projection we experience in the material worlds, the baddha-jiva has all the substance of the marginal living entity and is a real feature; therefore, each individual is 10,000 th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas, the jiva tatastha can exists in both the material creation, or after becoming material exhausted and frustrated, they can enter the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Dreamingin the mahat-tattva or being dreamless and dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti are both cases where the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes or their Svarupa body in Krsnaloka.

They have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental ‘svarupa’ body they really are.

Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal 'PRESENT' realm beyond mundane material time of past and future that has no 'present'.

You remind me of the debate others were having on another thread and Beggar bagging the dream –avadis, as he called them. Eventually though he began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.

Srila Prabhupada – “Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [Maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” CC. Madhya 20.117.

Srila Prabhupada – “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire". Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada – “However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life". Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada – “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada - “Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there.

Srila Prabhupada: - “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya".

Srila Prabhupada: - “Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore, many creations are coming and going". Letter to Madhuvisa 1972

Srila Prabhupada: - “Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. (Nitya-baddha) But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness (reviving ones nitya-siddha memory)”.Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: - “Just like in a dream, we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken, we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: - “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life (nitya baddha), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness, (realize our nitya siddha eternal body) then this period is considered as a second". Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: - “For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their Lila with Krishna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahma-sayujya (Impersonal Brahmajoyti) after being killed three times as demons. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent”. Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? (nitya-siddha)…” You are not eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned (nitya-baddha) on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it ONLY appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Srila Prabhupada – "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered".

Srila Prabhupada – "So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”.

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition in the Brahmajyoti), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down from Vaikuntha by misusing his little independence. .., that if you become president, you are secure”. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

Vigraha Prabhuji,

I agree with you that the Jiva has his/her sva-rupa awaiting him/her in a place that is beyond time [eternally present], etc etc etc.

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Please reconcile the Following statements by Srila Prabhupada.

I myself, can explain the terminology that Srila Prabhupada uses here,

but I think you're on a roll and

it may seem quite evident and in-line

with the references you have already cited.

Srila Prabhupada 'seems' to stating both sides of this argument--I feel there is no contradiction--but that is where I am approaching you to put it right so that the maxim will read coherently:

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Iso 16P:

. . . The all-pervading feature of the Lord—which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jéva-çakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls—is known as Brahman. . . .

Iso 17P:

. . . The identity of the living entity is never impersonal or formless; on the contrary, it is the material dress that is formless and that takes a shape according to the form of the indestructible person. No living entity is originally formless, as is wrongly thought by those with a poor fund of knowledge. . . .

. . . As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. The desire for lordship is the material disease of the living being, for under the spell of sense enjoyment he transmigrates through the various bodies manifested in the material world. . . .