RamanaDasi

you are wrong The residents of Vaikuntha never fall under the influence of the material modes of nature, even when they are dreaming Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep." Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

swami prabhupada told his followers it was a topic too hard to understand other acharyas said it is something you can understand - krishnas devotees never come under the influence of illusion, even when they are sleeping bhaktirasamrtasindhu says the souls in goloka are of two kinds. sadhana siddhas and nitya sidhas nityasiddhas have been in goloka forever. sadhana siddhas start off in santa rasa in the light of brahman

This verse of Bhagavatam makes no sense if ALL souls were originally in Krishnas lila. Whydoes it say devotees do not undergo material existence "like others" if all the "others" are souls who have fallen from Krishnas lila? That would be a type of deception... saying a devotee never falls down

In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 2.4 there is an extensive discussion about the fact that devotees who are in the lila of Krishna sometimes commit mistakes or become fallen or offensive. The examples are given of Akrura (who was involved in stealing the Syamantaka jewel and the murder of Satyajit) as well as Brahma (who stole <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place> cows and friends). Sri Rupa Goswami explains that those devotees do not suffer in the same way non- bhaktas do.<st1:place w:st="on"> </st1:place> <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> helps and protects them. As we also see in the case of Kalakrishna das who was an associate of Mahaprabhu who became involved with gypsy women. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.2.35 . TRANSLATION O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.19 na vai jano jātu kathañcanāvrajen mukunda-sevy anyavad ańga saḿsṛtim smaran mukundāńghry-upagūhanaḿ punar vihātum icchen na rasa-graho janaḥ SYNONYMS na — never; vai — certainly; janaḥ — a person; jātu — at any time; kathañcana — somehow or other; āvrajet — does not undergo; mukunda-sevī — the devotee of the Lord; anyavat — like others; ańga — O my dear; saḿsṛtim — material existence; smaran — remembering; mukunda-ańghri — the lotus feet of the Lord; upagūhanam — embracing; punaḥ — again; vihātum — willing to give up; icchet — desire; na — never; rasa-grahaḥ — one who has relished the mellow; janaḥ — person. TRANSLATION My dear Vyāsa, even though a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again. PURPORT A devotee of the Lord automatically becomes uninterested in the enchantment of material existence because he is rasa-graha, or one who has tasted the sweetness of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. There are certainly many instances where devotees of the Lord have fallen down due to uncongenial association, just like fruitive workers, who are always prone to degradation. But even though he falls down, a devotee is never to be considered the same as a fallen karmī. A karmī suffers the result of his own fruitive reactions, whereas a devotee is reformed by chastisement directed by the Lord Himself. The sufferings of an orphan and the sufferings of a beloved child of a king are not one and the same. An orphan is really poor because he has no one to take care of him, but a beloved son of a rich man, although he appears to be on the same level as the orphan, is always under the vigilance of his capable father. A devotee of the Lord, due to wrong association, sometimes imitates the fruitive workers. The fruitive workers want to lord it over the material world. Similarly, a neophyte devotee foolishly thinks of accumulating some material power in exchange for devotional service. Such foolish devotees are sometimes put into difficulty by the Lord Himself. As a special favor, He may remove all material paraphernalia. By such action, the bewildered devotee is forsaken by all friends and relatives, and so he comes to his senses again by the mercy of the Lord and is set right to execute his devotional service. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that such fallen devotees are given a chance to take birth in a family of highly qualified brāhmaṇas or in a rich mercantile family. A devotee in such a position is not as fortunate as one who is chastised by the Lord and put into a position seemingly of helplessness. The devotee who becomes helpless by the will of the Lord is more fortunate than those who are born in good families. The fallen devotees born in a good family may forget the lotus feet of the Lord because they are less fortunate, but the devotee who is put into a forlorn condition is more fortunate because he swiftly returns to the lotus feet of the Lord, thinking himself helpless all around. Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.

The pure devotees of Bhagavan Sri krishna never forget Krishna Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep." Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion) People who believe the associates of Sri Hari are having dreams wherein they are experiencing life under the modes of nature are following a concocted philosophy, as no lesser an authority than Sri Jiva Goswami says the associates ofl the Lord never fall under the influence of Mahamaya even while sleeping

This is not a translated text, rather these are the direct words in English of Bhaktivinoda Thakura who says some souls who chose to serve the Lord were admitted into the spiritual world (from the "burning fire" of Brahman) and some other souls went into Maya. No matter how you wriggle, it is absolutely clear that in this English language book written by Bhaktivinoda Thakura he states EXPLICITELY that souls started off from a neutral position (Brahman). First event: some souls chose to serve their God Second event: those souls were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. Third event: They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. This is the sequence of events Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said occurs and this is totally the opposite of the idea that souls start off in the lila of Krishna and come down into illusion. Either Bhaktivinoda Thakura is wrong or the people on the other side of this debate are wrong. Believe what you like, but this statement of Bhaktivinoda Thakura is perfectly clear: souls start off in a state where the souls may be "compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire". And for souls who emerged from samadhi and desired to be lords of maya: Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side. This is the teaching of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Foolish? Who are you calling foolish?

This is contrary to the teaching of the Upanishads And a person liberated in brahman is called, in Chaitanyadev's philsophy, a mukta Now you want to convince us a mukta has not attained mukti You are deceiving yourself and also attempting to deceive others. Shame on you.

my realization today is that blind faith is an evil thing. from that evil many other evil things come into existence. I saw sarva on another thread saying how Jayapataka says only Iskcon gurus should have the right to initiate outside of India. I realized today Iskcon has no value except for a certain class of people. The distortion of Chaitanyadev's philosophy by Iskcon and its by-product-philosophers is extreme. To the point where I now feel quite certain "they are not real followers of Sri Chaitanyadev at all". bija you are a gentleman. I hope they never influence you or disturb you with their self-deceiving Babylon of distorted "Prabhupada-said" beliefs Hare Krishna

I understand your thinking now

Sarva thinks that when the Vrajavasis are dreaming they are "in maya", that is, dreaming they are in connection with the material existence, no time passes in Goloka. But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys. I think this puts to rest the entire fallacious theory that Time in the spiritual world is not synchronous with time in the material world.

Sri Chaitanya taught Srila Sanatan Goswami that the Lord's antaranga shakti (internal potency) that manifests the Dham, parikars (eternal associates) etc has always existed. Sri Radha, Nanda Gopa, Yashodamoyee etc have always been with Krishna. You people should read what Sri Chaitanya taught - he said to Sanatan "mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante". Find out what that really means if you want to know what Sri Chaitanya's teachings really are. It is all explained in Vedanta Sutra pada 4.4.1-18. Take a look. Open your eyes and see that the Vedas explain where our spiritual body is right now, and how Time is inexhaustible.

Because God is unlimited he has the ability to appear within our limited field of perception. God makes the laws of nature, he is not subordinate to them.

Sri Radha worships those separate moments of time that she was with Krishna. She is not always standing together with Krishna, for sometimes she is in the mood of separation, vipralambha. How can the Gopis experience separation from Krishna if there is neverending union? Krishna sometimes comes and sometimes goes. He is not motionless or static. Also, during the astakaliya lila, the divine couples daily pastimes, they move from place to place and enjoy different lilas. Time passes....