valaya

Not exactly unexpected...

Received this reply from a friend. Also, I seem to remember the word `vetala` in a book I have on the goddess Kali Devi. Will try to find it later. What about Vetala? And why is it that no one can tell me which Indian god has the bat as it's symbol? The bat is a zootype that refers to reversion of the senses, it is referring to a process associated with viparita karani. It hangs upside down in its yogic "sleep" of satiation, gorged upon the vital fluid of its victims. There are close similarities between the Afro-Egyptian rites of Shaitan (Satan) celebrated in Sumer and Akkad and the later Indian rites of Kali. The bat is symbolic of a methodology that both employ. The retroversion of the senses make the leap backwards through a time space void possible. The process is the act of viparita maithuna (Skt) a form of magical union involving the total reversion of the flow of consciousness from objective experience to subjective awareness, and beyond both to pure undifferentiated Consciousness. In English literature there is a passing allusion to the Cult that practices it in his novel Batwing but is of no practical value. Rohmer was a member of the Golden Dawn, a British magical organization founded upon a connection with an Eastern authority which explains his even familiarity with the cults associated with the symbology. The Hebrew word MIM refers to Chaldean word LShOIRM associated with the symbology of the cult, means daemonibus hirsutus (to the hairy deities) or Serau mentioned by Herodotus. These were types of Set as gods of generation, perhaps this will give her some clue as to the identity of her sought after deity. You may post this to her if you wish. I will read the rest of what she wrote when I have the opportunity and see if theres anything else that I know that might be of help. ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com

May I assume that my quoted post above is also something you think you've understood? I get the feeling that there are many other things you think you understand , as well. Maybe you could share with us a few of the things you don't understand, particularly those you believe I might understand more than you. Or are there any? valaya

Radha, Krsna and all the acaryas will never give up on us, even if it may seem like it sometimes. The personal bond has been renewed and it cannot be broken by anything or anyone. That's why we needn't sweat the small stuff or concern ourselves too much with `technicalities`, etc. This can be a brutal path as it requires absolute humility along with total tolerance. One day we're criticizing another, the next we end up seeing the same or worse in ourselves. It ain't easy for any of us! What's going on down in the trenches between the common foot-soldiers is every bit as important as high level this-and-that between `advanced` devotees. In fact, I believe it is even more important to Srimati Radharani, our common Mother whom we are all actually part-and-parcel of. How the children are getting along, alone and together, is Her concern. The others are serving Her, the root, with their love and compassion, not we the leaves and flowers. She is the Heart of Krsna and He is saturated in Her love. These are the topics we should dwell on, alone and together, if at all possible. There is no need to concern ourselves with personal salvation; it's already assured! valaya [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

Dear Suryaz, Don't know why you used my hasty summary in your post directed to jndas, but it should not be taken as anything other than my own quick personal overview. Others probably have their unique ideas of what transpired. I just found the twists and turns, along with the emotional component, somewhat interesting. The whole male-female thing makes me think about Radha and Krsna! I only wish I could discuss such topics without coming across as either completely nuts or highly offensive, though I'm most probably both... What can we do? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu loves and accepts us, too! Lord Krsna in Bhagavad-gita is one thing, however Krsna as Lord Caitanya ablaze with the mahabhava of Radhika, is quite another. It's like comparing conventional weaponry to nuclear! Conventional thinking and conventional approaches in general have become obsolete! It will take some time, but after all He appeared only 500 years ago. We've only just begun transforming the entire planet like never before! Somehow or other everything and everyone are working together under Their Divine Will and Absolute control, whether we realize it now or not. Causeless mercy has swept all of us up and many more miracles are yet to come. See you there, prabhu! valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

valaya: Just giving my general overall impression of how it went from beginning to present, obviously subjective with only a brief look. When I say `seems` or `appears` it is saying that what I get from something may not be as intended or how others perceive it. In other words, I was right to consider atma straightforward and wrong to think "interesting" implied a question or that her posting was inviting a discussion of what she'd pointed out in what she'd seen. Was it reasonable for me to assume such? Well, I'm merely a member of the male species, so can only keep trying to understand the far more complex and highly subtle communication of females. Yes, I do appreciate your straightforwardness and honesty, atma prabhu, as well as your sharp wit and sense of humor. I like strong women in general, when they remain female, as you most definitely are. Also, when you speak personally about your children and life in the past and present I'm grateful for your sharing yourself more intimately here. This is certainly not done by everyone, but I really wish it was. If only we could simply be ourselves, without fear, all one family regardless. Then I'm an idealistic dreamer and a fool at best, aren't I? Best wishes, valaya [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

Spiritual requires soulful surrender while process can be merely mechanical. Though constant chanting of the Holy Names, preferably within a group setting, is the recommended `process` for this present age of Kaliyuga and followed by most here on this forum, few have deeply realized what is meant by `surrender` of the self (soul). Unfortunately, that won't stop even beginners from thinking they are in a position to advise you or anyone else. Without knowing you and your personal situation, they will inevitably jump in with so many assumptions often based on their own lack of realization. That may or may not include myself, something you'll have to decide... First one must abandon identification with their body, including the mind and intelligence. Since the `process` is self-realization, the application of it evolves along with one's genuine realization of self, which in turn is simultaneous with God realization. A personal relationship with the Supreme Absolute, whom many of us here call Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, entails a personal approach and application. That necessarily means meeting those who are at least somewhat advanced in their realization face-to-face and accepting some personal instructions while performing submissive service. Scriptures and perhaps other books can be helpful in the beginning, but to fully connect requires Divine Grace not philosophical logic. There are others here who will be more than happy to introduce you to their gurus and literature, so I will leave the proselytizing to them. Like anything else, it should be understood that results vary according to how one applies oneself, both in quality and quantity. By quality, heart is implied for any `process` to be truly spiritual. Good luck! valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com

I just went through this entire thread again and it's quite amazing how it changes with rapid twists and turns. Maybe it's the male-female energy that makes it more volatile. First Atma posed what on the surface seems a straightforward question about a particular incident, but it quickly goes into the male-female thing. Avinash makes it more personal and Tarun--well, Tarun just Taruns it up to a new level. Then JRdd (where'd she come from?) chirps in with this provocative teasing input: "LOL! Atma is right on form, love the improv, sister. Right on. (hee hee hee)" That of course cranks up Tarun and Avinash until Suryaz comes on with, "I am confused--I do not get it." Then begins her whole empowerment bit, which really seems to set off the guys and a new participant, sushil, adds something which may or not make sense but is completely unintelligible to me, though not any more so than Tarun and avinash have become. Could it be true, they actually do drive us nuts? Alright, so jndas tries to answer suryaz's allegations of women's disempowerment, but I come in responding to what I perceived as attempts to control by `priests` in their own selfish interests. jndas then somehow connects secrets with `confidential knowledge` in scripture and Gauracandra lashes out at what he perceives as anti-Prabhupada in my reference to priests (not referring to gurus at all, especially not him), which turns into an attack on my post suggesting suryaz may be tripping over herself by attempting to put all this together intellectually. Finally we're into Sahajiyism and my past posts going back to who knows when. So far we're at me trying to explain myself, somewhat apologetically, to both jndas and Gauracandra, more or less totally removed from atma's original question. Can I back out now, as gracefully as possible? It was kinda fun at the start, but now it's not. Say, isn't that the way it is in the mode of passion...not that there's any relation with anything or anyone here. It just came to mind. Haribol, prabhus! valaya [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

What Lord Krsna revealed to his friend and disciple Arjuna is freely available to everyone, moreso now than ever before. Whether or not we can acually realize it all is wholly dependent on His Divine Grace and Krsna giving `the intelligence by which we can come to Him`. Whatever qualifications we might need must also be given! The unveiling process remains an ongoing one... Our relationship with God is eternal, but after the personal connection with Sri Guru it intensifies and all doors are opened at once. It is for us to learn how to utilize His Divine Grace to walk through those doors. We are pushed and pulled, but there is no going back... At the start, most of us think we can run before we're even able to walk, but after awhile a certain stability is reached. Even though progress may appear slow at that point, much more is happening than we are capable of realizing, since our minds and false-egos insist on believing they're in control and taking credit accordingly. False pride gets in the way... It can all come together very quickly though under the right circumstances, when we're ready to fully accept the role of Divine Grace. Sometimes when we least expect it... As for confidential knowledge, whatever is secret will surely remain so. That's not under our control either! Regardless of what we may say or attempt to reveal to others, they simply won't get it. My own experience is that by sharing my most personal secrets heart-to-heart with Radhika, She shares Hers with me. It simply doesn't work with Krsna, at least not for me... Each of us does have an intimate relationship with God if we choose not to ignore it by intentionally remaining in ignorance. His Divine Grace has opened all the doors, but the choice is ours where and how we invest our personal emotional attachments. That's my secret I long to share with you... valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com

...and you are fully entitled to your individual beliefs, opinions, thoughts, feelings, sentiments, etc.etc. Not only that, you have the right to reasonably express them here, as far as I'm concerned anyway. None of us are perfect yet and I appreciate being reined in occasionally, though there are ways to do that more effectively without taking out one's personal frustration. Some of your points are well-taken and will be considered in future posts. Often certain individuals just grate on each other and some intentionally provoke. I do get frustrated sometimes, I'll admit. One thing though, I have always been completely truthful when revealing myself. Fact is, my life was RADHAcly altered by first His Divine Grace embodied as Srila Prabhupada and then through an unusual exceptionally powerful darshan in front of the deity of Srimati Radharani here in Toronto. I consider myself saved by Divine Grace alone, but obviously a lot more work is going to be needed. I'm hoping my next body will be more suitable and circumstances will fall into place quite naturally. I do not pretend to be a devotee and especially not a practising Gaudiya Vaisnava, but we are all part of the same God and each of us does have a personal eternal relationship with Him and/or Her which cannot be forceably interfered with by anyone, other than mutual agreement between a guru and his disciple. There are reasons I often spontaneously express myself as I do, though I doubt you could understand or accept them. Prabhupada was/is Prabhupada, you are you, and I am myself. All of us are separate unique individuals. Guru is a position, not a person. If I could encourage one thing only, it would be to have complete faith in God's Loving Grace and one's own unique self simultaneously. We need only be ourselves and allow others the same freedom. The more we see of value in each other, the more we will be inspired to become more in each other's company. Fault-finding is easy, seeing only the best is what's difficult. As Krsna says in Srimad Bhagavad-gita, we were always together and will remain together forever, as individual persons. I have no doubt that everything will work out eventually for all of us, probably relatively soon due to our personal involvement with Sri Guru, even if some of us have not taken formal initiation vows. Krsna and Radha are ultimately in control, this is Lord Sri Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement and we have all become caught up in it through His causeless mercy. Surely the best is yet to come! valaya [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-09-2002).]

What Srila Prabhupada and so many others presented and continue to offer freely is guaranteed effective for all who accept it, though usually it takes much time and many tears. First we listen, then we hear and afterwords we try practicing what we've seen and heard. Practice makes perfect! Those who have actually tasted the pudding know it's potency personally. Those who for one reason or another prefer to talk about it will never appreciate His Divine Grace quite as fully, what to speak of personally. It is not helpful for anyone to criticize that which they are unable to accept in others because they themselves have not directly experienced it themselves. That alone will limit their own progress and prevent any genuine spiritual sentiment from arising in their hearts. That's why it's called apaRADHA. She remains the personified source of His Divine Grace, both the means and the end for the devotees. It's Her devotion, not ours! What is supposedly seen in others which allows us to define ourselves as more is simply a reflection of our own inadequacies and proof that we are usually much less than we may think we are. There are two threads I'll add here, one entitled `Society Without Envy` and the other about apaRADHA: http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001079.html http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001066.html ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-09-2002).]

People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; forgive them anyway. If you are kind, People may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway. If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway. If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway. What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway. If you find serenity and happiness, there may be jealousy; Be happy anyway. The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway. Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; It was never between you and them anyway. Mother Theresa. ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com

...and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the ecstasy of Mahabhava Srimati Radharani has plundered the treasure house and is freely distributing the very highest to the absolute least among us, without consideration of qualification or disqualification. Suryaz, beware of `priests` who try to convince you of your need for their `protection` and guidance. They are not in control of anyone's personal relationship with the Supreme (including Sri Guru), though many believe that they are. Let your inner faith be greater than theirs' by depending solely and wholly on God's Loving Grace. Technical processes have unlimited pitfalls, but the personal path, followed with the simple trusting heart of a child, has very few. When it comes to pure Bhakti, intellectualization just won't do. My God, even the word itself is intimidating! valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com

Materialists believe that freedom means the ability and opportunity to consume, but those with even a little genuine spiritual realization of the self know that it actually means freedom from the need to consume! Attachment to the spiritual automatically releases us from material attachments of all kinds simultaneously. As higher truths are revealed through His Divine Grace, a `higher taste` develops quite naturally. Admitting our hopelessly helpless situation here, we cry out in desperation until our prayers are answered. Depending on our own abilities, as if there ever were such a thing, always results eventually in so-called `falldowns`. The very first step in the 12 Step Program, followed by alcoholics and other addictive personalities, is to depend on their personal higher power. We who understand that actually our `addiction` is to material consciousness must also learn to do so. valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com

Restraining, retraining, myself and everything else depends solely on His Divine Grace whom I consider the very source of mercy as well as unlimited, unconditional Love. Like anything else in this world, I suppose, all must be applied judiciously in accordance with personal realization and perceived duty. The more we are in touch with our own sinful nature and accept our absolutely fallen state, the more we are capable of forgiving others. Nothing personal was meant here, towards you or anyone else, just emphasizing certain words from Srila Prabhupada as so many others do. How we may apply them is, of course, between ourselves and His Divine Grace. That said, I have no idea what your last post meant! valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL! amanpeter@hotmail.com