leyh

The 6th ("anyone who sees the world in black/white needs to get an education.") and 11th ("it is also worth remember to see others as human beings trying to struggle to get by in this world.") "guest" posts in the thread were authored by me. I wrote them when I still wasn't sure whether I should post in this Forum again. My humble apologies if the Moderator was offended by a registered user posting as a guest

Dear Frodo: Your explanation is inaccurate. In the Gospels, Jesus implicitly and explicitly claimed to be the Christ: When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him. (Mark 8:29-30) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." (Luke 9:20-21) The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." (John 4:25-26)

Dear Friends: For some time I felt burdened by the fact that I was unable to practice much of the complex ritualism and stringent regulations of Krsna Consciousness, the spiritual tradition which I have made many posts on in this Forum. I also had problems with some of aspects of the philosophy. But I have learned tremendously from Krsna Consciousness and many other spiritual traditions that I have encountered. Most importantly, it was the realization of a seemingly irresistible attraction to the person of Jesus Christ. It seems that I have come full cycle in regards with my spiritual path. Beginning with Christianity when I was a child many years ago, I have travelled through various spiritual traditions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Krsna Consciousness, etc. and must finally acknowledge that throught all these time, Jesus had always been a sometimes subtle and sometimes overt presence in my life and my heart had always had an affinity with Him. The person of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef (aka Jesus the Christ) who walked, wept, laughed, raged, consoled, died and resurrected more then 2,000 years ago. The Yeshua ben Yosef who became seen by his followers as the living word of God transposed onto humanity to be revealed as fully God and fully Man. It is the enigma of this historical/transhistorical person that has never ceased to captivate me, even when I was deeply attached to the study of other spiritual traditions. Ultimately one must follow one's heart. I have not undergone any radical conversion. The essence of my world view remains very much the same --- that God is a Person whose is intimately interested in His creation, and that life is essentially meaningless if centered around materialistic and speculative pursuits.I believe there are truths in religions outside of the Christian faith, and I will try to relate those truths to Christ. The Jesus that I will follow to is not the Jesus of the Fundamentalists. It is the Jesus of the Christian Mystics like Saint Francis of Asisisi, George Fox, Thomas Merton, Thomas a Kempis, the anonymous author of The Way of the Pilgrim, Brother Lawrence and many others like them who tried to know the presence of the living Christ in each and every moment of their lives. This will be my spiritual direction for the indefinite future.

Recent events have prompted me to do some soul searching and re-examination of my current spiritual life and I have discovered a renewed interest in strengthening my connection with Jesus Christ whose teachings and personality has been a main feature in my life for many years. I will take some time off from this forum for a period of prayer and meditation to see how my spiritual direction in life should proceed. My well wishes go out to many of the Forum Members that I have had the pleasure to communicate with like Theist, Stonehearted, Mahaksa, Bill, and many others. May everything be well for all of you.

Dear theist: Based on Srila Prabhupada's explanations,I think we We are taught to treat the Deity much differently then we would a stone because the deity is stone that is utilized by devotees to worship Krsna in an authorized manner. Hence, it is more worshippable then a stone. This is just like a flag. Although it is made of cloth, when shaped into an authorized form to represent a nation, it becomes more respectable then the material it is made from. I'm not sure about your second question. I'm sure many of the Vaishnavas here can enlighten us.

The purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement is not to make Christians into Hindus or Hindus into Christians but to inform everyone that the duty of a human being is to understand his relationship with God. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Krsna Consciousness, The Matchless Gift, Chapter 6) Similarly, if one is serious about understanding God, he should not think, "I am Christian,I am Hindu," or "I am Muslim." (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Krsna Consciousness, The Matchless Gift, Chapter 6) I am thinking that I am a man or a woman, an American or Indian, a Christian or Hindu--these are all designations pertaining to the body, and when the body is finished, they will also be finished. We are actually spirit, and therefore our spiritual activities will go with us wherever we go. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 1) God is neither Moslem nor Hindu nor Christian--He is God. Nor are we to be considered Hindu, Moslem or Christian. These are bodily designations. We are all pure spirit, part and parcel of the Supreme. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 2) The Sanskrit word dharma has been translated into English as "faith," but faith has come to mean a religious system that goes under the name of Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. But the word dharma does not have the same meaning as faith. The faith of an individual may change from Hindu to Buddhist to Christian to Moslem, etc.People have the ability to accept one faith and reject another, but dharma cannot be changed. It is the nature of every individual to render service, either to himself, his family, his community, nation or to humanity at large. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 6) Because we have material bodies, we take on so many designations; thus we call ourselves a man, a parent, an American, a Christian, Hindu, etc. These designations should be abandoned if we at all want to become free. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 6) There is a misconception that the Krsna consciousness movement represents the Hindu religion. In fact, however, Krsna consciousness is in no way a faith or religion that seeks to defeat other faiths or religions. Rather, it is an essential cultural movement for the entire human society and does not consider any particular sectarian faith. This cultural movement is especially meant to educate people in how they can love God. ("Krsna Consciousness --- Hindu Cult or Divine Culture?", The Science of Self Realization by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) We have created Christian, Hindu, and Muhammadan religions, but when we come to a religion without designations, in which we don't think we are Hindus or Christians or Muhammadans, then we can speak of pure religion, or bhakti. ("Krsna, Christos, Christ", The Science of Self Realization by by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rama, Hare Krsna? Prabhupada: They are attracted to Krsna. These people, they are... (Hindi) But you are taking Krsna as Hindu. That is your mistake. Krsna is... Hindu ne. He is God. He is God. God Hindu ne, Mussulman ne, Christian ne, Parsi ne--God is God. (Hindi) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. (Hindi) ...Krsna dharma. Krsna consciousness, that is the only dharma. (Hindi) ...Krsna literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. (Room Conversation,November 7, 1970, Bombay) Please note that I have nothing against Hinduism. I only have something against the assertion that Srila Prabhupada preached Hinduism. The statements above show quite clearly that he did not.

When and where did Lord Caitanya ever used the words "Hindu" or "Hinduism? Can you quote even one scriptural reference as evidence of your claims? This is nonsense. You really should stop misrepresenting Srila Prabhupada. We have Srila Prabhupada's clear and unambigious statements on many occasions saying that Krsna Consciousness is not Hinduism. But you keep proclaiming that Srila Prabhupada was deliberately preaching "Hinduism" in the guise of Krsna Consciousness. This is very wrong. You may like Prabhupada, and that is good. But if you want to follow Prabhupada, you have to accept his instructions. He tells us that Krsna Consciousness is not Hinduism, and you may disregard that instruction, but it is most inappropriate to distort it. If you cannot accept what Prabhupada says about Hinduism, don't accept. Don't make Prabhupada say what you want him to say. That is not the way to treat a sadhu.

Student: Sria Prabhupada, one librarian wanted me to prove that Bhagavad-gita was five thousand years old. He wanted to see a copy that was written down five thousand years ago. Srila Prabhupada: Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof. So, if you simply read Bhagavad-gita you will see everything. Come and see. Here is the proof. ("Recorded on December 7, 1973, On the shores of the Pacific Ocean Near Los Angeles", Life Comes From Life by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Student: Sria Prabhupada, one librarian wanted me to prove that Bhagavad-gita was five thousand years old. He wanted to see a copy that was written down five thousand years ago. Srila Prabhupada: Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof. So, if you simply read Bhagavad-gita you will see everything. Come and see. Here is the proof. ("Recorded on December 7, 1973, On the shores of the Pacific Ocean Near Los Angeles", Life Comes From Life by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Now you are saying that Srila Prabhupada cheated his disciples.This is most offensive. Anyone who is familiar with Srila Prabhupada's mission knows that although he may have made adjustments due to time, place and circumstances, he never compromised on the philosophy. If he had wanted to cheat the hippies, he could have allowed them to go on taking marijuana and have illicit sex, but he did not. Rest assured that if Srila Prabhupada was ordered by his guru to preach "Hinduism" in the western world, he would have uncompromisingly preached Hinduism. Prabhupada was like a lion. But Prabhupada was ordered to preach Lord Caitanya's message --- Krsna Consciousness. Not Hinduism. To say that Prabhupada "diplomatically" preached Hinduism under the guise of "Krsna Consciousness" is simply misrepresenting Prabhupada's preaching. Once a reporter asked Prabhupada what his movement "How does your group differ from other Buddhists?" And Prabhupada's swift reply, which I humbly direct to your attention was: "We have nothing to do with this Hinduism or Buddhism. We are teaching the truth. And if you are truthful, you will accept it."

Yes. The name "Hindu" is a "nic name" from "outsiders". I think we both agree on that. I never implied anything like that. All I said was that devotees of Krsna are not Hindus. Krsna is above all material designations and so are His devotees. If you're attached to the designation of "Hinduism", by all means be a Hindu. I'm not saying you shouldn't. What I disagree with is people trying to associate Srila Prabhupada's movement with Hinduism when he himself said his movement is not Hindu.

The root word of the term "Vaishnava" is "Vishnu" and that name is found in Vedic literatures. The root word of the term "Hinduism" is "Hindu", which refers to the Sindhu river and that word cannot be found in Vedic literatures.

Krsna is not the exclusive property of Hindus or Indians. Krsna belongs to every living entity. Also, the very idea of Hinduism is a material designation. Can it be found in the Vedic literatures? No. Throughout the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna never mentioned the word "Hindu" or "Hinduism" even once.Still, there are people who insist on confining Krsna Consciousness to Hinduism. Srila Prabhupada mentioned on many occasions ,quite categorically, that Krsna Consciousness has nothing to do with Hinduism. If anyone thinks himself or herself a greater authority on Krsna Consciousness than Srila Prabhupada, let that person start his or her own movement, but don't use Prabhupada's name to preach ideas that Prabhupada denied. The Krishna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, "Krishna Consciousness--Hindu Cult or Divine Culture?", The Science of Self Realization)

Srila Prabhupada, also known as His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (1896-1977) is the Founder-Acarya (Spiritual Master) of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). He is the great saintl who brought the philosophy and culture of Krsna Consciousness to the west in 1965 when he arrived alone and virtually penniless in New York City and by the time he passed away in 1977, his ISKCON had already become a blooming confederation of 108 temples, schools and farming communities all over the world. He also left behind a huge library of books on Krsna Consciousness. The late ex-Beatle George Harrison was a follower of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada's writings are avaliable on the Internet. His translation and commentary on Bhagavad-gita can be accessed at www.asitis.com and his massive work Krsna --- The Supreme Personality of Godhead can be read online at www.krsnabook.com. Many of Srila Prabhupada's other books can be downloaded at http://www.hare-krishna.org There are also many websites dedicated to Srila Prabhupada and my favourite one is www.prabhupadaconnect.com. It is run by Padmapani dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and the site is free from the political bickerings that some of Prabhupada's followers are inclined towards. A copy of Srila Prabhupada's letter to Gandhi can be found at that website: http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Letters.html Although Srila Prabhupada has already left this planet, he is very much alive in the spiritual sense and continues to guide many people through his books and teachings.

I think what Srila Prabhupada is saying is that the Krsna Conscious person can use what is apparently material to appreciate Krsna, while for the non-Krsna Conscious person, the deity is just stone or wood. Ultimately, whether the person is engaged in idoltaory or not all depends on his/her consciousness, I guess.