andy108

I find alot of good from their poor showing. We are shown what not to do. We are shown the results of not actually following the verbatim instructions of the Acarya who gives the training. In addition, what escapes you is that Srila Prabhupada designed things so that all of his instructions and training would be there to be recognized understood digested and assimilated by anyone who was not present then. I learned arcana through writings on the internet. I am learned in his instructions because he insisted that his conversations, lectures, etc be meticulously recorded for posterity. Thus the true leaders of his actual movement are not represented by the cheaters who claim such who have rejected his orders. They are simply the leaders of the Western version of the Gaudiya Matha. No the true leaders are taking in his Vani, learning from the mistakes of the cheaters, and slowly recognizing one another and coming together despite all odds to execute his true desire. By the book. No speculation necessary.

Because if unqualified neophyte devotees would stop considering themselves qualified to initiate and give their own neophyte speculative opinion as to what instructions meet time place and circumstance, and just be the kind of Siksa Guru's Bhaktivedanta Swami wanted them to be, there wouldn't be the problems there are today. <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top"> Here is Srila Prabhupada simple explanation on this very ridiculously simple and obvious issue of guru; the "who" and the "How" of it all. CC Madhya LIla Chapter 7 verse 128 "Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.” PURPORT: This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness...one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam...One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life." (Cc Madhya Chapter 7 128-130) So clearly, the instruction is for many siksa, or instructing, gurus, not more diksa gurus. This is further explained by Srila Prabhupada: "So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home." (SP Darshan, December 3rd 1976) "Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krsna has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child." (SP Conversation, January 25th 1977) So anyone can become a "local guru" - even a foolish man, an unqualified man or a child. And if anyone is interested in following Srila Prabhupada's instructions in this matter, he will heed the warning: "It is best not to accept any disciples." Srila Prabhupada also gave the following warning in his 1961 Vyasa Puja offering: "If everyone just initiates then there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure." "One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided." The truth is that all such Siksa Guru Spiritual Masters who would follow Srila Prabhupada's orders and sadhana system, cent per cent, would be disciplining the new disciples and practically speaking the new initiates would be disciples of these Siksa Gurus. Yet also, in reality, because of the transcendental potency of the Acarya and his very authorized words on the subject, each new disciple initiated through a ritvik priest would become his Granddisciple, as he once mentioned. He was to remain the initiating Diksa Guru in Iskcon. Following this program removes the possibility of a neophyte receiving the elaborate Guru puja given to Saksad Hari Uttama Disksa Gurus. Among other things. Including that everyone is considered first and foremost a disciple of the Grandfather PitaMaha Founder-Acarya, and then a disciple of the Siksa Guru who helps him understand their Varna and Asrama, how to engage in public Sankirtana, how to engage in Arcana, cook and distribute Prasadam, and tells him which books to read. The Siksa Guru has a very simple and limited range of instructions for a reason, so as not to become a micromanager of every breath a new disciple takes. The control freaks who need undue adoration among us hate this concept, want someone a their beck and call and waiting with baited breath for every command from their garbage mouth. It is quite a shame. </td></tr></tbody></table> True colors. Sorry Kula, not even you can train someones free-will to choose to love and respect you and accept that training to be a means of spiritual purification instead of a system to use to subjugate others. Also, you neglect the fact that some were trained quite well, and have bided their time, training maybe one or two loyal and honest disciples. They may not have a huge public profile, yet, but considering all the properties and resources were stolen and now unavailable, patience is required no? YOU do not decide what is to be done within the asrama of Bhaktivedanta Swami "from now on" according to your whim. That is not your call. Don't kid yourself, or others, that is a waste of your time and theirs. Just look at what he said to do, if you care, and represent that. Or find another mission to give your speculative armchair commentary on, since you obviously don't have the stuff to create your own.

All what you say here is based upon the delusion that we are our bodies. Bhaktivedanta Swami never met many of his disciples. Never ever. They never looked one another in the eye, body to body. And he most certainly was never present in his physical body at their Initiation Yajnas. He accepted these disciples by authorizing those he trusted to accept them on his behalf. For many years he did this while he circled the globe. He gave these disciples a taperecording of him chanting the mantra and had his disciples play it in the aspirants right ear. The part in sastra which demands mutual examination was successfully fulfilled because B.Swami decided that HIS AUTHORIZED CRITERIA for examining a potential disciple was that those he trusted examine the aspirant in his absence. If his disciples observed the new aspirant and decided they met the criteria, that was good enough for B.Swami and he accepted thousands of disciples that way, and never ever met them once. Those disciples doing this work as deputies also informed the aspirant that this was the process, so the aspirant could examine that part of their prospective Guru, and decide if they could live with that or not. This is historical fact. Another historical fact is that when asked by his senior disciples how initiations would be conducted in his society when he would "no longer be with them", he formalized this system of officiating through deputies in writing and asked that no changes be made. End of story.

Sonic Yogi mines the treasurehouse for gold, and delivers!

It is true that it is good advice to the neophyte to remain at a respectful distance, because that implies SOME proximity and awareness of the glories of Radha-Kunda. You were right that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati made greater emphasis on gosthanandi preaching, and focus on Saranagati. I need to make a point here and to do so we must bear in mind that the topic of this thread is to explore the instances where Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was encouraging his disciples to consider Manjari Bhava. This would be something for more advanced disciples to consider and perhaps give some focus upon when the time was right. You inserted some truth in your post, yet it was somewhat non-sequitur to the topic and slightly contrarian. So I tried to harmonize your point anyway and then you actually did as so many do and question a perceived exclusivity. When what I posted was keeping with the topic, those taking discipline from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. "HIS TEACHINGS" is the topic. Anyone taking his teachings to heart is his disciple. Of course it is likely that the activities I listed are probably instructed by other Bhaktas in the Gaudiya Line, "Advanced Sankirtana devotees" alone would have sufficed, so I really didn't need to say "and disciples of Bhaktivedanta Swami."

Why? First, I did not say ONLY, but I used his disciples of his as the example in response to YOUR post which said. Wherein you were finding a possible contradiction in Sonics post. Wherein you were implying that Sonics reference to the NOD Ch.11 commentary might be encouraging something that was simultaneously NOT encouraged by either Bhaktivedanta Swami or his Guru. It was a good catch. But you only found the contradiction, while not offering a harmonious solution. So I pointed out that a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami, upon reading that NOD commentary, could take its essence, and I described how that could be done, while simultaneously fulfilling the precautions you alluded to. Of course this could apply to anyone who considers Bhaktivedanta Swami as one of his Siksa Gurus. And who would take what Bhaktivednata's Guru instructed as relevant as well. Of course such a person would Also be a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami would he not? Of course. Unless you were just trying to neglect my offering by painting me some kind of fanatic, after baiting a trap. But there is no trap that can hold a mind broadened by my Srila Prabhupada.

Of course, an advanced sankirtana devotee and disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, while outwardly maintaining all the rules and regs, engaging in daily harinama, arcana seva, distributing prasadam and books, etc, can live at radha kunda by reading about and remembering the pasttimes there at any time of day.

Very nice service Sonic. Srila Prabhupada guided you to find all the right quotes to back up the theory and it is just ecstatic to see. I am now remembering my intuitions on this subject, and contemplating the mechanisms by which these advances occur, and I am certain that one of the transcendental uses of the pastimes manifest in the "material world" is to facilitate these changes. For those who are having a hard time accepting Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's purports as Sastra, I would refer them to the article describing Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's quest to defend his Guru's translations of Sanskrit to English, the reknowned Sanskrit scholar he contacted, and their sublime realizations. My advice to anyone who is wrestling with contradictions is to, upon encountering a contradiction, immediately repeat three times... "simultaneously one, yet different". This philosophy applies across the board to harmonize any and all contradictions. Always remember that Lord Krsna has the capability to facilitate any and all possibilites. Any desire a pure devotee can conceive is already being arranged because it reflects the fulfillment of Krsna's desire also.

The ringer.

So it does not matter a whit if one remembers or not, we are all nitya siddhas. Therefore every nitya siddha, whose siddha-swarupa is pre-existing, pre-determined, and irrevocably set in stone, can accidentally come under the spell of Maha-Maya. Just look at the world, there are billions of these occurances right in front of our eyes. They might then hear of the possibility of attaining the position of topmost complete spiritual surrender, that which brings the Supreme Personality and his part and parcel the most intimate and intense feelings of ecstacy through loving exchanges and moods of separation. But if that person hears of such things, they may not be attracted to that position because they are not in that position eternally. Their taste for awe and reverence is just too overwhelming, and they have no desire to investigate what is said to be the most intense ecstatic reciprocations with God. And the argument could be used for all of us, once we have completed Vaidhi sadhana, which only occurs technically by Krpa, that we were and always have been just like Narada, a nitya siddha who just seemed to engage in Vaidhi sadhana, but was never really conditioned.

I am stunned that is all I can say. Thanks Prabhus Hare Krsna

<table><tbody><tr><td width="5%"> </td><td width="90%"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

There are just as many quotes saying that we have a choice. It is also not a matter of a bhava "not being right" or rejection in the mundane sense of being dissatisfied, but a total satisfaction which then may transform and expand with added ecstasy. Or else why would Uddhava even have the desire to take the foot dust of the gopis so much as to desire to take birth as a clump of grass that might be under their feet some day? As above so below. Each misunderstanding we have of increase of ecstasy has a pure and true counterpart in the spiritual world. What would be the use of so many acaryas objectively analyzing and delineating the rasas, claiming levels of superiority, increasing and more complete tastes and ecstasies? What a fruitless exercise according to the no-change Vadis. Yup, everyone in Vaikuntha, despite the evidence, is never to get the chance to experience the completeness of ecstatic love of God uninhibited by awe and reverence. Why? Just to be on the winning side of a debate?

The Bush administration was the stealth bomber. Under the guise of Conservative Republicanism these misguided Neo-cons were able to get the first leg of the body of speculative Facist Socialist-communism in the door. The head and body of which have been gradually seen through the peephole of that door ever since the misguided Andrew Jackson began his economic speculations, Lincoln "forced" a union, and Wilson created the creature from Jekyl Island. These successive misguided mini-tyrants have set the final stages of anti-consititutional NWO facism into play. Allowing for the behemoth to take the next step and fully arrive on the scene as the second shoe hits the ground running with Barky Obama. Obama and his toadies (Carter/Clintonistas redux) are the full incarnation of godless liberal faux "compassion" and thus anti-Americanism. You are in for a rude awakening. I guess once a hippie liberal, always a hippie liberal? Chant more maybe that will snap you out of it.

According to the Acaryas, there is still awe and reverence in Vaikuntha, therefore my use of "God" is correct in this application. Yet your point of how she sees him as husband adds to the complexity. The gopis had husbands who they loved and respected. Krsna appreciates the higher ecstasies generated from the complete wholesale wanton surrender of those with husbands. It is a more intense experience according to the scriptures. Don't forget, we are told there are thousands of Laksmis in Goloka. It seems there are some wives of Lord Narayana who just can't help themselves. After all the austerities and penances, the guilt and staunch morality of the rules, Krsna's all attractiveness tips the scales. I concur, and Bhaktivedanta Swami does also in his purports to the story of Jaya and Vijaya, and cursing of Tulsi by Sri Radha.