rahalkar

Hare Krishna, Thank you for posing this invaluable document from gosai.com website. You are very correct - we should not let ugly caste system sabotage the spiritual pursuit of anyone who is interested. It is duty and privilege of every living entity to worship his/her creator and anyone who desires to worship the Supreme Lord must be given opportunity. The artificial barriers created by caste system, which has no scriptural basis, must be removed. Thank you once again. Hare Krishna!

Hare Krishna everybody, All glories to Srila Prabhupada! No, that's not the truth. Your understanding of Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya disciplic succession does not have any scriptural basis, therefore it is completely wrong. In another thread I have already replied to your questions about Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya disciplic succession. The thread is - Madhva-Gaudiya parampara - spiritual-discussions/451479-madhva-gaudiya-parampara.html - Please see the post 127 and 128 You might not have had a chance to look at it yet. Please take time to read it. For sharing the information with other readers of this thread, I am putting it here - 1. The Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya Paramapara, Guru-Disciplic succession, was stated by Srila Kavi Karnapura and authorized by Lord Gauranga Himself. There can be no questions whatsoever about the legitimacy of the Parampara coming from Srila Madvacharya to Lord Gauranga because Lord Gauranga Himself accepted Sri Ishwara Puri in the disciplic succession as his beloved Spiritual Master. If it wasn't bonafide line of disciplic succession, then, the Lord who is knower of everything and who Himself said in Srimad Bhagavad Gita BG 4.2 - Evam Parampara Praptam, would not have accepted Srila Ishwara Puri as His Spiritual Master. Who can know the past, present and future and what's bonafide and what's not better than the Supreme Lord Himself? If the Lord accepted Srila Ishwara Puri as His Spiritual Master, then that authorizes the disciplic succession from Srila Madvacharya to Srila Ishwara Puri and to Lord Gauranga. What more evidence is needed? 2. There are few differences in the philosophy explained by Srila Madvacharya's (dvaita philosophy) and that explained in Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya (Achintya Bhedabhed) from-and-after the divine presence of Lord Gauranga in the Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Achintya Bhedabhed explanation does not contradict Srila Madvacharya's Dvaita explanations, rather it complements it. Achintya Bhedabhed was given by none other than the Supreme Lord Himself knowing fully well the rules and regulation of being in Parampara System. Anything given by the Lord Himself, how can it be deviation? The all-omnicient, all-knowing Supreme Lord is always free to add/subtract/alter/change/complement whatever and whenever He likes becuase He is knower of the Supreme Absolute Truth because He is the Supreme Absolute Truth. Therefore Achintya Bhedabhed can not be considered deviation, rather it is complementary to the earlier explanations. From Mahabharat, we know that the Lord would rather let go of His own word just to uphold the prestige and honor of the words of His devotee. Everyone knows in Mahabharat, how Lord Krishna broke His own word of not taking up any arms during the war and took the wheel and charged at Sri Bhismadev, just to keep the honor of the vow of Sri Bhisma. Srila Madvacharya is dear devotee of the Lord. The Supreme Lord never violates the words of His own heart - His dear devotee. Therefore Lord Gauranga's Achintya Bhedabhed does not contradict the explanations of Srila Madvacharya, but simply enriches it. 3. The conclusion given by Srila Madvacharya and that given in the Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, are both same, that is - jiva (jiva tattva) and the Lord (Vishnu tattva) are separate and Supreme Lord is the eternal master of the jiva as opposed to Advaita Philosophy of oneness or monism etc. Because the conclusions of Srila Madvacharya and that of Brahma-Madva Gaudiya from-and-after Lord Gauranga are same, it is not deviation. Therefore the teachings of Srila Prabhupada are received through proper disciplic succession from - Lord Krishna... Brahma...... Vyasa... Madva...... Gauranga...Srila Prabhupada. Somehow you misunderstood that Brahma taught to Sri Madhvacharya. The disciplic succession is from Brahma-Narada-Vyas-Madhva. Jai Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna!

Thank you very much for putting very beautiful devotional post. This is the essence of all Vedic literature, that is, to take shelter of the Lotus Feet of Lord Narayana.

Hare Krishna everybody, All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I mentioned Lord Gauranga in my previous post (#126). I want to add Scriptural references which explain the Supreme Personality of Lord Gauranga. Who is Lord Gauranga? Lord Gauranga is none other than the Supreme Lord Krishna. Here are the references: ====================================================== Prediction of the name of His mother and the name of His future birthplace. ** In the Garuda-Purana, the Supreme Lord says: aham purno bhavisyami yuga-sandhyau visesatah mayapure navadvipe bhavisyami sachi sutah I will take birth as the son of Sachi [bhavisyami sachi sutah], in Navadvip-Mayapur [mayapure navadvipe]. I will come in my complete spiritual form in the first part of Kali-Yuga. =============================================== Prediction of the future advent of Sri Chaitanya ** In the Padma-Purana, it is said: yatrayogesvarah saksad yogi-cintyo janardanah chaitanya vapur aste vai sandranandatmakah The Supreme Personality, Janardana, who is the object of the yogis' meditation [yogi-chintyo- janardanah], who saves the devotees from various sufferings, and who is the master of all yogic practices [yogesvarah], who is always full of divine transcendental cstasy and bliss [sandra-ananda-atmakah], will advent in His own divine form of Sri Chaitanya [Chaitanya-vapah]. ================================================ Description of the time and place Sri Chaitanya's future advent, name of His mother ** In the Padma-Purana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself states: kaleh prathama-sandhyayam gaurangotham mahi-tale bhagirathi-tate ramye bhavisyami sachi-sutah I shall appear on this earth [mahi-tale] in the first part of Kali-Yuga [kaleh prathama sandhyayam] in a beautiful place on the bank of the Bhagirathi [bhagirathi-tate ramye]. I shall have a golden form [gaurangah], and I shall take birth as the son of Sachi [bhavisyami sachi-sutah]. =================================================== Prediction of His mother's name and the nature of His specific preaching method [sankirtana]. ** The Supreme Personality of Godhead states in the Narada-Purana: divija bhuvi jayadhvam jayadhvam bhakta rupinah kalau sankirtana arambhe bhavisyami sachi-sutah O Divija (demigods), please come and advent as devotees on this earth [bhuvi jayadhvam jayadhvam] in the age of Kali-Yuga. I will incarnate as the son of Sachi [bhavisyami sachi-sutah] to inaugurate the congregational chanting of the name of Krishna [kalau sankirtana arambhe]. ==================================================== Prediction of the name of His future first wife and His future assumption of the sannyasa order. ** In the same Garuda-Purana, it is also stated: kaleh prathama sandhyayam lakshmi- kanto bhavisyati daru-brahma-samipa-sthah sannyasi gaura-vigrahah In the first part of Kali-Yuga, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will come in a gold-like form. First He will become the husband of Lakshmi [srimati Lakshmi Devi, Lord Chaitanya's first wife]. Then He will become a sannyasi, near Lord Jagannatha who will appear in a divine wooden form. =============================================== Prediction of the bodily color of Sri Chaitanya and the nature of His future activities. ** In the Nrsimha-Purana, it is said: satye daitya-kuladhi-nasa-samaye simhordhva-martyakrtis tretayam das-kandharam paribhavan rameti namakrtih gopalan paripalayan vraja-pure bharam haran dvapare gaurangah priya-kirtanah kali-yuge chaitanya-nama prabhuh "The Supreme Personality of Godhead who in the Satya-Yuga appeared as a half-man, half-lion to cure a terrible disease that had ravaged the daityas, and who in the Treta-Yuga appeared as a person named Rama [Lord Ramachandra], the person who defeated the ten-headed Demon Ravana, and who in the Dvapara-Yuga removed the earth's burden, and protected the Gopa [cowherd men] people of Vraja-pura, will appear again in the Kali-Yuga. His form will be golden, He will delight in chanting the Lord's holy names, and His name will be Chaitanya." ================================================ Prediction that the Supreme Lord will leave Goloka and corne in a golden form. ** In the Markandeya-Purana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead declares: golokam ca parityajya lokanam trana-karanat kalau gauranga-rupena lila-lavanya-vigrahah "In the Kali-Yuga, I will leave Goloka and, to save the people of the world, I will become the handsome and playful Lord Gauranga." =================================================== Prediction of the name of the mother of Sri Chaitanya and His future role as the deliverer of the darkness of Kali-Yuga. ** In the Vamana-Purana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead declares: kali-ghora-tamas-channat sarvan acara varjitan sachigarbhe ca sambhuya tarayisyami narada O Narada Muni, I will take birth in the womb of Sachi [sachi-garbhe ca sambhuya]. I shall save the people, who will give up all proper good conduct [sarvan acara varyitan], from the terrible darkness of the age of Kali-Yuga [kali-ghora-tamas-channan]. ==================================================

Hare Krishna everybody, All glories to Srila Prabhupada! 1. The Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya Paramapara, Guru-Disciplic succession, was stated by Srila Kavi Karnapura and authorized by Lord Gauranga Himself. There can be no questions whatsoever about the legitimacy of the Parampara coming from Srila Madvacharya to Lord Gauranga because Lord Gauranga Himself accepted Sri Ishwara Puri in the disciplic succession as his beloved Spiritual Master. If it wasn't bonafide line of disciplic succession, then, the Lord who is knower of everything and who Himself said in Srimad Bhagavad Gita BG 4.2 - Evam Parampara Praptam, would not have accepted Srila Ishwara Puri as His Spiritual Master. Who can know the past, present and future and what's bonafide and what's not better than the Supreme Lord Himself? If the Lord accepted Srila Ishwara Puri as His Spiritual Master, then that authorizes the disciplic succession from Srila Madvacharya to Srila Ishwara Puri and to Lord Gauranga. What more evidence is needed? 2. There are few differences in the philosophy explained by Srila Madvacharya's (dvaita philosophy) and that explained in Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya (Achintya Bhedabhed) from-and-after the divine presence of Lord Gauranga in the Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya. Achintya Bhedabhed explanation does not contradict Srila Madvacharya's Dvaita explanations, rather it complements it. Achintya Bhedabhed was given by none other than the Supreme Lord Himself knowing fully well the rules and regulation of being in Parampara System. Anything given by the Lord Himself, how can it be deviation? The all-omnicient, all-knowing Supreme Lord is always free to add/subtract/alter/change/complement whatever and whenever He likes becuase He is knower of the Supreme Absolute Truth because He is the Supreme Absolute Truth. Therefore Achintya Bhedabhed can not be considered deviation, rather it is complementary to the earlier explanations. From Mahabharat, we know that the Lord would rather let go of His own word just to uphold the prestige and honor of the words of His devotee. Everyone knows in Mahabharat, how Lord Krishna broke His own word of not taking up any arms during the war and took the wheel and charged at Sri Bhismadev, just to keep the honor of the vow of Sri Bhisma. Srila Madvacharya is dear devotee of the Lord. The Supreme Lord never violates the words of His own heart - His dear devotee. Therefore Lord Gauranga's Achintya Bhedabhed does not contradict the explanations of Srila Madvacharya, but simply enriches it. 3. The conclusion given by Srila Madvacharya and that given in the Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, are both same, that is - jiva (jiva tattva) and the Lord (Vishnu tattva) are separate and Supreme Lord is the eternal master of the jiva as opposed to Advaita Philosophy of oneness or monism etc. Because the conclusions of Srila Madvacharya and that of Brahma-Madva Gaudiya from-and-after Lord Gauranga are same, it is not deviation. Therefore Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is is received through proper disciplic succession from - Lord Krishna... Brahma...... Vyasa... Madva...... Gauranga...Srila Prabhupada. 4. Also All four bonafide Sampradayas (Sri-Rudra-Brahma-Kumar) have their own commentaries, methods of sadhana, methods of Deity Worship etc. These commentaries and methods differ regards to few specific details, but the conclusion/essence is the same in all four, that is, Supreme Lord has personal form, jiva (jiva-tattva) and the Lord (Vishnu-tattva) are separate and Lord is the eternal master of jiva. The commonalities far, far exceed few differences, therefore it can not be said that one Sampradaya deviates from the other. Hare Krishna!

Thank you Kyros for taking your time to explain the essence of who is a Brahmana and providing the scriptural references. Thank you. Hare Krishna!

These two verses also support the original statement by Lord Himself in Srimad Bhagavad Gita 4.13 that Lord established the four Varnas by "guna" and "karm" and not based on birth. Thank you Kyros.

Where does it say in translation of Sri Manu Samhita 2.87 that those should be priorities? Where? Manu Samhita 2.87 is the definition what Brahmin is. I would like to make one general point - Brahminical qualities and Brahminical activities are supportive of each other. Performing Brahminical activities such as Deity worship etc. purifies one and one develops more of Brahminical qualities and more one has Brahminical qualities, one wants to do more of Brahminical activities. If it is easy, then what is so wrong about it. It should be easy for a child to reach his/her eternal father/creator. Why should it not be easy? If the Brahminical behavior/qualities is not the essence of being a Brahmin, then what else is? Question. Please tell us What is the criteria of being a Brahmin, according to your understanding? Question. Is there any scriptural Verse you can point to which says one can not be Brahmin unless one is born in Brahmin family? One of the qualification of a Brahmin is "Brahma janati iti Brahmana". Let's say for argument that someone is Brahmin by birth. So someone is born in Brahmin caste, then he grows up and becomes an atheist. Is he still Brahmin? How can a Brahmin be an atheist? It's a contradictory term. This refutes the argument that Brahmin is by birth. Who can know who is Brahmana or not, better than the Supreme Lord Sri Hari who has created them and everything else? In Srimad Bhagavad Gita 4.13, the Lord says: Chatur varnyam maya srushtam, guna karma vibhagashah tasya kartaram api mam viddhi akartaram avyayam The Sansktrit itself is very straight forward. Please translate it word by word. The Lord says "gunakarma" vibhagashah. The four varnas are established by Lord Krishna according to "guna" and "karma". Guna means "qualities" and "karma" means activities/occupational duties. Lord Krishna doesn't say janma karma vibhagashah. Therefore this is direct evidence that four varna system is not based on birth. Some of my friends are 2nd initiated and they are at the Altar performing Deity Worship 3-4 days a week. All of them have the attitude that they are the lowest and everyone else is superior to them. They think that by the causeless mercy of Guru and Lord Krishna, they have been given a chance to worship the Deity which they don't deserve. If you are in Dallas area, you are welcome to come and visit my friends at Sri Sri Radha Kalachandji Dham. Perhaps you have had a bad experience with someone who you know at one of our temples. I don't know the details, but I can understand it's possible. I can only apologize on their behalf and request you not to let few odd negative experiences with ISKCON devotee to polarize your views on what is bonafide Vaishnava Sampradaya. ISKCON is Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya and it is indeed very special because Lord Gauranga appeared in it. There is no problem and no one fooled anyone. Every living entity is dear child of all loving God and every living entity has "birthright" to worship Him if it so sincerely desires and nothing should stop it. These are the teachings of Bhagwat Dharma. That's why Srila Prabhupada gave Brahman initiation to his disciples, who at the time of their Brahman initiation exhibited Brahminical behavior and strong desire to do Brahminical activities/duties, so that they can do Deity Worship. The examples you listed of Sri Dronacharya, Karna etc. do not refute the statement that varna is not by birth. Sri Dronacharya besides teaching Pandavas, Kauravas about military weapons and war tactics, he also taught them about different Vedic Scriputres which is one of the duties of Brahmana. He was practising Brahaminical duties as well. He took up Kashtriya activities in addition to his Brahminical duties and fought in the Mahabharat war. Therefore Sri Dronacharya's example does not support your argument. Lord Parasuram rejected Karna not becuase Karna was not born as Brahman, but Karna was not Brahman by his conduct. Karna was following Kshatriya duties/activities and not Brahmana duties. That's why Lord Parasuram denied him and therefore example of Karna does not support your argument. Sri Vidura was a great wise man and great devotee of Lord Krishna. He undertook the duties of a minister to the King which are not classified as Brahminical duties. Therefore, Sri Vidura is not considered a Brahmana although he is a great devotee of the Lord. What you understand to be Varna system is actually caste system which is very demoniac where poor dalits are oppressed, not allowed to come to Temple. In my home state of Maharashtra, because of the hideous caste system Dalits were not allowed to come to Temple of Pandharpur and other Temples, not allowed to take water from common village well or not allowed to take water from river ghat. They had to walk long distances to the far side of the river just to get water because it was considered by the caste Brahmana that shadow of dalit pollutes them. What nonsense. Saint Chokhamela was born in dalit family but he was a great devotee of Lord Panduranga. The caste Brahmanas at the Temple banned him from coming to Temple because he was Dalit. So Saint Chokhamela would take darshan of Panduranga from outside. Such was the tyranical caste system which you mistakenly take it as Varna System. This is not at all what Lord Krishna established. Lord Krishna created chatur varnyam maya srushtam "gunakarma" vibhagasah, not "janmakarma" vibhagasah. Let me put a quote from HG Sankarshan Das Adhikari who is Brahmana initiated by Srila Prabhupada and is a Guru. -- The current caste system in India is called asuri varnashram, demonic caste system, and it is based on birth.The original caste system in Vedic culture was called daivi varnashram or divine caste system. It was based on one's qualities and activities. It was not based on birth. The present day exploitative caste system was introduced by materialistic brahmanas who were brahmanas by birth only and not qualification. The original caste system was based on harmony, love, and co-operation of everyone working according to their natural talents for the betterment of all. The Krishna consciousness movement is dedicated to restoring the original pure caste system all over the world so that everyone can become prosperous, peaceful, and happy. Sankarshan Das Adhikari --- It is not the western devotees who have misunderstanding. Understanding they have on this subject, is not their own, but given to them by Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Acharyas coming from Lord Krishna. All Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya devotees in India also understand that Varna is not by birth but by qualities/duties because Lord Krishna says - chatur varnyam maya srustam "gunakarma" vibhagasah not "janmakarma" vibhagasah.

First I would like to make a general point which is - Brahmin is by quality of one's behavior and one's type of work. Regarding this, Sri Manu-Samhita says: "Whether he performs other rituals and duties or not, one who perfectly chants mantras glorifying the Supreme Personality of Godhead should be considered a perfect brähmaëa, eligible to understand the Supreme Lord."<o></o> - Manu-saàhitä 2.87<o></o> Some of the qualities of Brahmana are constant truthfullness, performing austerity, giving charity, cleanliness, fasting, reading/teaching Vedic Scriptuers, forgiveness etc. About your specific question 1, the answer is yes. The four varnas are by quality of one's qualities/behavior and not by birth. Because the Supreme Lord says in BG 4.13, that four varnas are by Guna-Karma and not by Birth. The spiritual position of the Vaishnava (devotee of Lord Krishna/Rama/Vishnu) is higher than the position of a Brahmana. Becuase someone can be a Brahmana but not a devotee of Lord Vishnu, he/she may be worshipper of other devi/devatas or he/she may be impersonalist. About your question 2, those who were Gurus and fell down, were they Brahmins? Yes, they were Brahmins before they fell down. After spiritually falling down, they are not. But the most important point here is that one can rectify one's behavior and get back on track. In this material world, we all know, that Maya is very strong. We should focus on how someone is bravely trying to get away from the clutches of Maya and try to surrender to the Supreme Lord and not focus on someone's occassional and temporary fall downs. About your question 3, Srila Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiation to those who exhibited Brahminical qualities and expressed stong desire to do Deity worship etc. at the time of initiation. That's why Srila Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiations. Later on, some of those might have deviated. Just as someone with good living/food habits, goes to a doctor for health check up. Doctor runs the different tests and reports come out good, so the doctor gives good health certificate. Some years later, the person develops bad food/life habits and his health goes down. Someone may question how come the doctor certified him to be of good health? Was the doctor's judgement wrong? No, the doctor was not wrong. At the time of health examination, this person had good health, later on this person deviated. I would like to share again the teachings of Bhagavat Dharma that regardless of one's type of work - brahminical, kshatriya, vaisya or sudra, anyone can become devotee of the Lord. e.g. Saint Chokhamela. His family profession was that of sudra (disposing off dead animals), but Saint Chokhamela is exalted Vaishnava. Another example is that of Saint Gora Kumbhar whose work consisted of making the earthern pots which is not brahminical work. While engaged in that occupational duty, he performed his devotional service to Lord Hari, therefore he is a great Vaishnava. This is what Srila Prabhupada has taught that anyone, regardless of whatever background/birth he/she might have had, anyone can chant the Holy Name of Lord Krishna and perfect one's life. Hare Krishna!

Hare Krishna everybody, What is Varna System according to scripture? In BG 4.11, Lord Himself says that Lord Himself has created four varnas according Guna-Karma. Therefore, We must understand that Varna is by Guna-Karma and not by Janma. Sometimes people mistakenly equate Varna system to caste system. The caste system is perverted implementation of the Varna system. Because Varna is according to one's qualities or wanting to develop certain qualities, anyone can develop those qualities. It is irrespective of where one has taken birth. Srila Prabhupada gave nice example in this regard, which you all may already have known - son of a high-court justice is not automatically a high court justice. The son will have to go to Law college and develop the required qualifications. Also not just son of the high court justice, but "anyone" who has the inclination for that type of work, can go to Law college etc. and get qualified. Similarly anyone regardless of which caste they are born in, can develop the qualities of Brahmana, Kshatriya etc. The Scriptures say "Kalau Sudra Sambhavat" meaning in Kali-Yuga everybody is "born" sudra. Janmanat Yayate Sudrah, Samskarat Bhaved Dvijah - meaning by birth everyone is Sudra, but by Samskara or by training one becomes Dvijah (Brahman). (Again Sudra is not by birth, but by behaviorial habits) What is that "Samskara" which transforms Sudra into Brahmana? It is not some Karma Kanda ceremony but by Bhagvat vidhi of which chanting the Holy Names with sincerity Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare Hare| Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare|| is the foremost. In ISKCON, we have two levels of initiations - first - Hari Naam initiation and second Brahman initiation. First initiation is good, but when one becomes more and more steady in all aspects of Navadha Bhakti, more steady in Suchi (internal and external), more fixed in one's own Sadhana and if one desires to do Deity worship, then he/she may take 2nd initiation. This is according to Pancha Ratra book by Sri Narada Muni. Also in 2nd initiation, one gets Gayatri mantra. To be eligible for Krishna is not the matter of externals but purification of the heart. As one becomes more and more steady in one's spiritual practice, he/she will want to do more and more for the Lord and awakening of desire for Deity worship wherein you can touch, bathe, dress the Deities is natural progression for some. For this reason, devotees in ISKCON take 2nd/Brahman initiation. Hare Krishna!