vijay

Thanks for that Krsna prabhu

Thanks for that Kulapavana Prabhu, do you know of any references where I can find out more about this place? The original article mentioned one or 2 places about how this abode may be within the maha tatva, but would be nice to find out more.

Sorry for bringing up this topic, A few devotees have bought these verses to my attention, some of you might have already seen these verses. Has anyone got a transliterated copy of these verses? Also if some one has got a wider context of verses before and after would be helpful too. Thanks, YS Vijay http://www.trsiyengar.com/id84.shtml In one of the letters in this conference, it was said that only ISKCON has the philosophy of the soul originally falling from Krishna-lila in the spiritual world. What is the origin of the souls the material or the spiritual world or in other words, did we were before our material existence in this material world with the Supreme Personality of Godhead or somewhere else is an interesting topic that is discussed in many religions. Here are some quotes to be considered from the Padma purana that suggest fall-down from the spiritual world. In the next essay we will give the rest of the slokas from the Padma purana on this subject. And later on from the other sattvika puranas. 1.15.228 ..he goes to Visnu's (the Supreme of all Deities) world and fallen from Visnu's world he goes to Rudraloka and fallen from that place also he is born in the various divisions of the world. NOTE: Visnu's world is not temporary as the planet of the demigods. Later on we read "it is beyond the darkness of maya, it is eternal, beyond all miseries". 1.20.53 One who donates to a brahmana and garlands the Lord saying "my Lord Pradyumna be pleased" will live in the city of Visnu for a kalpa. 1.20.93 .one who is performing this tapasya in the month of Visnu and giving a cow to a brahmana, he stays for a kalpa at the place of Visnu. 1.20.98 .one who is doing this tapasya he goes to the highest position from which return is difficult. This is called Suvrata, having done which rebirth is not easy. 1.20.111 One who does Laksmi-vrata will live for a kalpa in the world of Laksmi. 1.21.75 Performing vishaka dvadasi vrata, (elaborately described before) fasting removes all sins. On death he reaches Visnu's or Keshava's city and his recollection of Hari, the enemy of the demons Madhu, Mura and Naraka for 9.018.000.000 years. 1.21.154 give a mountain of sesame, 140, 70 or 42 kg to a brahmana to be used in Yajna along with the rite (described before) goes to the abode of Visnu, the murderer of Madhu from which return (rebirth) is difficult. 1.21.180 give a mountain of 1000, 500 or 300 pearls (with elaborate rites, described) to a brahmana goes for 100 kalpas to Visnu's world. 1.21.206 give mountain of 1000 or 400 kg sugar with rite to priests, goes to Brahmaloka. Then getting into an aeroplane shining like Moon and Sun he would rise from there and go to the heaven of Lord Visnu for 100 kalpas. 1.24 worship Govinda with singing and musical instruments, pray. Donate cows, gold etc.etc. with rites is honoured in Visnu's world for thousands and hundreds of kalpas. 1.27.59 The pure one, performing the religious deeds (elaborately described in 5 verses) goes to Brahmaloka for many kalpas. Moving in many worlds for 2 parardhas (lifetime of Brahma), he again goes to Visnu's abode obtainable by the power of deep and abstract meditation. 1.52.49 (After descriptions of sins and hells). Brahmana: how to become free from the reactions of such bad deeds. Lord (Visnu, Keshava or Hari) said: leave householder's life, always loudly chant My name Govinda an worship Me. All sins perish as cotton or may perish in contact with fire. He will live for a long time in My City. Then he becomes an emperor after having lived in My house according to his desire. 1.57.16 Vyasadeva: give or construct a water tank (large artificial reservoir for storing water) measuring 20 cubits, go to Visnu's Abode. Afterwards born as king or wealthy man or orator. 1.57.17 if measures 1000 cubits, he doesn't fall from Visnu's heaven. All his sins will be destroyed. 1.57.44 and will obtain the auspicious salvation. 1.58 King constructed bridges, dug wells, planted trees did Yajna, Dana and Tapah. Again before Yama's assembly.Citragupta.."go to Visnu's Abode". Aeroplane came, went to Visnu's heaven, the great heaven from which returning is difficult. 2.4.1 Goloka, the Heaven of Visnu, beyond darkness, the world of salvation. 2.22.25 Suvrata: O Krsna, O Lord Murari, always sprinkle me with water of knowledge, me - who have fallen in the great ditch covered with fearful darkness called Samsara. 2.98.65 With devotion I Salute the good excellent sanctifying couple of Feet of Vasudeva, Bhagavan who is the affectionate Emancipator of him who has fallen into the great Ocean of the worldly existence. 2.120.33 The soul bound by faults is taken to the worldly existence. 2.121.3 Tulasi: "Listen O Narada, for what reason does My Lord, the Master of the world go to the wordly existence"? A man who is bound by sinful and even meritorious acts moves to the worldly existence. O brahmana, tell me why Visnu would go to worldly existence. 2.125.4 In Treta Yuga men listened to the Padma purana and enjoying the fruit of the 4 goals of life, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha they would again reach Visnu. 3.18.62 (..many bhakti-sukrtis..) then going to Visnu's heaven, he is full of sport and enjoyments. Having enjoyed great pleasures there, he is born as a king in the mortal world. 3.31.126 He who devotedly worships a 100 Saligrama Sila will after living with Visnu in Visnu's heaven, then born as a sovereign emperor here on earth. ..if with joy worship Visnu's Salagrama stone doesn't fall from heaven till deluge. 3.31.132 human, highly devoted, in Kali-yuga worship Salagrama-silas by offering eatables, flowers, incense, lights, ointments, song, musical instruments, hymns rejoices in Visnu's company (salvation) for a 1000 crores of kalpas. 4.2.4 .one who cleanses with water the temple of the Lord, lives in Visnu's abode for as many thousands of kalpas as dust particles one removes. 4.2 thief sinner before Yamaraja. Citragupta spoke "Committed all the sins Creator created on earth. Once stole from temple, entered temple put feet dirty with mud on ground (stamped): ground free from slope, holes and pits. Saluted Radha Krsna Murti lying sleeping on a bed, thereby free from all sin. Then he discussed with the Deity "shall I steal or not? I am all time thief, I cannot serve Lord, let me steal". Krsna's maya (magic) and his trembling hands caused jewels etc. fall with too loud noise on the floor, nearly caught, fled. bitten by cobra, died.go to Visnu's excellent Abode, lived there for long time as many 1000 kalpas as dust/mud particles he had thrown down from his feet. 4.3 Rat came to eat ghee of lamp offered before Visnu, Krsna, Damodara in Kartika month. It started eating and moved up the ghee. So, the lamp burnt more brightly. Out of fear the rat ran away. It had revived lamp in front of Visnu; sins of crores of previous existences perished. Went from ocean of mundane existence for a hundred ages of Manus to the world of cows, in Visnu's proximity. Then princess here. Then back again. 4.11.20 Laksmi-Narayana, worship 4 consecutive thursdays in Margashirsha month (offer sweets, prayers, presents). Live in Laksmi's city for so many 1000's of kalpas as many times the worship is practiced. 4.12.62 He who protects brahmanas by giving his life and wealth goes to Visnu's Abode, from which a return (to the mortal world) is difficult to have. 4.15.43 husband and wife keep Ekadasi fast (incl. stay awake at night etc.) stay together for long time in Visnu's Abode. 4.16.16 offer with devotion cowries (shell, money/ornament) to the Deity will live in Hari's abode for as many days as number of cowries offered. COMMENTS: Srila Prabhupada in the purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam 8.5.5 writes: "As described in the Second Canto, Lord Brahma saw Vaikuntha before the creation of the universe. Viraraghava Acarya mentions that this Vaikuntha is within the universe. It is situated above the mountain known as Lokaloka. This planet is worshiped by everyone". The following slokas describe this Vaikuntha. SB 2.9.9: His personal abode, Vaikuntha, the supreme planet above all others. This transcendental abode of the Lord is adored by all self-realized persons freed from all kinds of miseries and fear of illusory existence. SB 2.9.10: In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. SB 2.9.11: The inhabitants of the Vaikuntha planets are described as having a glowing sky-bluish complexion. Their eyes resemble lotus flowers, their dress is of yellowish color, and their bodily features very attractive. They are just the age of growing youths, they all have four hands, they are all nicely decorated with pearl necklaces with ornamental medallions, and they all appear to be effulgent. SB 2.9.12: Some of them are effulgent like coral and diamonds in complexion and have garlands on their heads, blooming like lotus flowers, and some wear earrings. Now, just as the living entity can fall down again from the transcendental abode of Vaikuntha of this material world although Visnu Himself is there and many liberated sages and devotees, similarly one can fall down from the transcendental abode of Visnu or Krishna in the spiritual world. In this regard Sanatana Gosvami describes in the Sri Brhad-bhagavatamrta that as one goes up in the material and spiritual world, the forms of Krishna become transcendentally more opulent and attractive, in other words increasingly less chance of falling down. If one goes back to Visnuloka situated within the Mahat tattva two things can happen. 1) One can come back again to the material planets. Taking birth at or close to a holy place of Vishnu or Krishna in this earthly planet from where he will go back to either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana beyond the mahat-tattva. 2) One can go from the Visnuloka within this mahat-tattva to the Visnuloka of the spiritual world beyond the mahat-tattva. The Visnuloka is in some ways like the bhauma Vrindavana for Krishna bhaktas, an intermediate place before attainment of the highest abode. Compiled by Sri Sri Nitai Das Prabhu

You have some good reasoning, I have also had similar doubts that you have had after not feeling anything on the path for many years. You are correct that its not the same for everyone as everyone has different conditionings. Krsna says that obtaining bhakti is very rare even though its easy to obtain if one is sincere. Therefore there are many paths Krsna mentions for different types of mind sets, eg karma, jnanna, yoga etc. As theist mentions one must do this under guidance. As in any non trival process one needs a guide, becoming a doctor, learning at university etc etc. Ones own mind is insufficient, one who has seen the truth can guide someone from kindergarten stage to his own stage without this learning from just books is prone to obscuring the real meaning through the filter of the mind which we can not see we are doing. There are many texts available however the highest goal is for you to decide. The different paths can take you to different places as the goal may be different. Even with spiritual life all who get the highest realisation describe being completely intensely in love with krsna completely satisfied and unattached to anything material as a consequence, manifesting physical symptoms, aswell as claiming to have contact with krsna face to face even while living in this body. They tell of their experineces and it can be analysed with others who currently and in the past describe the same symptoms. It can be argued that this can be a make believe, just like if people came back and said they visted australia and said they have been. We can only verify the claims to the degree we know the details of australia. So in the scriptures there are details of what someones conciousness and behaviour is and then we can co-oberate this with others in the past who have claimed to have achived this and others that claim it now. And to the degree we have traversed the journey and noticed certain things to that degree we can verify the claims of others. This is usually what happens and happened to me as our initial faith is dishonest and blind we have our own sentimental conception of faith, therefore as thiest prabhu said our faith has to be checked by a profesor expert in this art a guru. He should be able to explain the next stage above you and you be able to understand and progress. Just like if we know 2+2 then we can understand the next stage which is multiplication, but not yet calculus. So as a crude example a guru can explain to you the difference between the mind, intelligence and conciousness. Once we realise we are the conciousness and not our thoughts (we are the observer of our thoughts the guru recomends practices in which we can actually realise this) then we can start to comprehend the supreme conciousness krsna. Until then our faith is blind towards krsna as we dont even know who we are (the soul\conciousness) let alone krsna. This is the same point about guru. Guru meaning as krsna says in the gita, humbily approach someone who has seen the truth. He can guide you step by step. The question then comes to how do you know who can guide you. As krsna says according to our sincerity krsna gives us a guru to the degree we are insincire we get cheated. However I found that I questioned my siksha gurus intensely and practiced what they said, initially i was sceptical as my mind and intelligence is an overwhelming factor i questioned and eventually got answers according to what I could comprehend. As the mind and intelligence is trained in a certain way through different practices of devotional life we begin to understand more and more subtle concepts which arent based on faith. A crude example is drug addict may not be able to comprehend the pleasure which one derives from giving in charity or being principled, however with guidance he gains understanding then experience of more and more higher and subtler concepts and pleasures. So in the same way our intelligence is corse and it needs to be refined. Not based on sentimental faith but faith based on knowledge. Hope that helps in some way. Gauranaga

Similar to what Kulapavan prabhu said, from my understanding we are all very limited in understanding and experience so any higher knowledge even in day to day life has to be accepted on faith, not just on religious matters. From choosing a university or believing in a place called australia to accepting a road map, we need initial faith based on a resonable amount of evidence, eg other people have used the university, been to australia, or used the road map and vouch for it. Sabda = authority (Follow the road map it will get you to London) Anuman = Logic (It looks like its working the first few streets where correct, the direction seems to be as told by others - let me carry on - faith builds) Pratyaksha = Direct sense perception (I've arrived in London) Same thing with going to australia, there is no way we can prove to you australia exists, even if you see it on tv and others say they have been, only when we follow instructions to get there and finally arrive there do we actually realise australia. In the same way. Others claim to of seen god face to face, there are books describing how to get to him. We may not believe everything initially as it doesnt make sense to us, but as we progress we realise that it works, same with mathematics initially we can understand that 2+2 =4 works and its logical and we can easily use exapmles to understand, but calculus seems far fetched and abstract, but once we continue on the path it becomes more understandable. From a faith based understanding eg. 2+2=4 to a logical, making sense understanding and when we implement it to a direct sense perception understanding eg when we use apples or something. In terms of which religions to use. like anthing else initial research is required before choosing a university. So if our aim is to know god which religions teach this, and how effectively. Just like in a pharmacy there may be many brands of medicine with slightly different ingredients to tackle the flu, people will choose them based on different criteria's but all have the same active ingredient. Ie to know god. For me I came to Krishna conciousness as it made more sense to me as it gave me more depth than other religions I narrowed down my search using certain criterias like it must be able to answer certain questions. eg why are people born differently etc, and so I accepted reincarnation backed up by other pieces of evidence like ian stevensons research into child memories and birth marks. In Krsna conciousness I saw a step by step process like a road map which shows the signs that one has as he gets higher and higher levels of conciousness in a detailed manner, (Scriptures like madhurya Kadambini and Nector of devotion). To the point where you see Krsna face to face. The science is of elevating your conciousness to the point we realise we are not this body and we are conected in loving servcie to the Lord. Just like in every day life when we are selfish we feel a certain type of conciousness and when we give to others we feel a different type of conciousness. Some people are more sensitive to others as they are more concious of other entities suffering, others are more self centered so less concious to their suffering, so the science is of becoming concious and cleaning the conciousness as to be aware and eventually to be able to see god face to face. As with all things the taste is in the pudding. We may try different processes and in the trial and error we become more aware of what works for us, we usually dont move up in a straight line.

I thank theist prabhu for changing my understanding in a previous debate. Although I still have milk occasionally I've reduced it, and will try and stop eventually, im much more concious about giving to cow protection projects now and repenting when i do drink milk. If this was slavery of blacks or jews who were treated in a similar fashion we would boycott any product by them even if they would be killed anyway. If these were our 'real' human mothers who were used for milk and then killed we would be outraged and would not even try to justify using that milk or product. It seems that we are desensitised to these things from a young age. A child seeing a cow being killed would generally feel empathy and become vegetarian, a child seeing how a cow is treated when milked and then to see its calf killed and then it killed would feel empathy, however we like many other things have become dulled to it.

Haribol prabhu I think the author may of been Mahatma prabhu (ACBVP) not Bhakticaru Swami. Heres a link I found http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4187 Vijay

Its interesting, I guess i'll have to wait until and if i get there. Didnt realize bramha samhita was translated by someone else have you got a link for more info?

As far as im aware the translation is by Bhaktisidhanta saraswati takhur and still needs to be explained as he's realisation of it is expresssed in the translation. He says "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment." That seems to me to be saying there is no past or future in goloka ?

You initially said "if there is eternal time, then there must be a past and a future... time divides things as past, present and future." It says below "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world." http://vedabase.net/bs/5/56/en So how do you reconcile all of these statements so they are all true?

As thiest prabhu said no use speculating. Wait until one realizes he is not the body. "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world." http://vedabase.net/bs/5/56/en

All glories to Puru prabhu, I am grateful that I had access to such a senior devotee through this forum, I have learnt many new ways of thinking and feeling through debate and discussions, I beg forgiveness for all the offences I have caused, I also beg for forgiveness from all the other devotees I may have caused offense before it is too late, including babhru prabhu, thiest prabhu, Jahnava Nitai prabhu, Kalpuvan Prabhu and many others who my kanishta attitude may of offended. All glories to the vaishnavas.

43 Dharmadeva tada murtau, narnarayanatmana Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha 44 Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja Swaminarayan translation: (one version) 43 From Dharma-deva, then, from the devotee, I, Narayan-muni, shall take birth on this earth, in the land of Kosala, indeed, as a brahma, a singer of the Sama Veda. 44 O Brahma, when cursed by a muni, some rsis take birth as human beings, I will protect them from the demons and I will establish the principles of religion. Someone pointed out that the actual nar-naryana rishi's farthers name was also Dharma and his mothers name was Murti. Bhagavatam. 1.3.9 TRANSLATION In the fourth incarnation, the Lord became Nara and Näräyaëa, the twin sons of the wife of King Dharma. Thus He undertook severe and exemplary penances to control the senses. Bhagvatam 2.7.6 dharmasya—of Dharma (the controller of religious principles); dakña—Dakña, one of the Prajäpatis; duhitari—unto the daughter; ajaniñöa—took birth; mürtyäm—of the name Mürti; näräyaëaù—Näräyaëa; naraù—Nara; iti—thus; sva-tapaù—personal penances; prabhävaù—strength; dåñövä—by seeing; ätmanaù—of His own; bhagavataù—of the Personality of Godhead; niyama-avalopam—breaking the vow; devyaù—celestial beauties; tu—but; anaìga-påtanäù—companion of Cupid; ghaöitum—to happen; na—never; çekuù—made possible. TRANSLATION To exhibit His personal way of austerity and penance, He appeared in twin forms as Näräyaëa and Nara in the womb of Mürti, the wife of Dharma and the daughter of Dakña. Celestial beauties, the companions of Cupid, went to try to break His vows, but they were unsuccessful, for they saw that many beauties like them were emanating from Him, the Personality of Godhead. SB 7.11.7 Lord Näräyaëa, along with His partial manifestation Nara, appeared in this world through the daughter of Dakña Mahäräja known as Mürti. He was begotten by Dharma Mahäräja for the benefit of all living entities. Even now, He is still engaged in executing great austerities near the place known as Badarikäçrama. Its safe to assume that this verse in skanda purana is also talking about Nar-naryana rishi as this is consistent with hundreds of verses talking about them. If this is assumed to be talking about sahjananda swami then there needs to be strong reason to assume him in this verse when it seems to fit nar-naryana rishi naturally.

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors. </td></tr></tbody></table> You quoted me on the above, the above doesnt mean that we do nothing about someone who violates the law, but you have to atleast philosophically accept that lord krishna is in charge, and gives us what we deserve and desire that doesnt mean not doing our duty. I've never denied they have done atrocious things, your claim was that any good they have done is wiped because you say so. Now if that gets on your nerves so much then you have the problem. The point is that if you educate the masses they will stop going to people like kirtananda. No one is saying that if you have evidence against kirtananda dont use it or dont warn anyone about it, but moaning about it after the event has little use. Where did i say no one can say that he is molesting a child? Look at the whole quote and not just what you want to see! Its about your claim that they did no good what so ever! Same as above! Anger has really clouded you and thats the danger the pendulium swings one way then the other. Extra sentence at the end of it. You must of read gita where anger clouds intellegence right? The point is that you cant demand that soemones conditioning disappears, work on your own one. (That doesnt mean you cant do your duty by reporting or warning someone about a molester) Add context to it the next line was You need to read it together rather than line by line and twisting your own meanings out of what I've said. I guess you can always write letters and tell the police if you have anything if you cant do that then you can shout about it on a bulliten board etc etc. But as prabhupada said the ultimate cure for material suffering is to become Krishna concious and make others Krishna concious you can riddicule that as impractical but i feel thats the only real thing that will save anyone. Well then if a pure devotee or near pure devotee cant clean up the movement or us becoming pure wont help, then whats the solution, is their anything more potent than that you have up your sleave? My full quote What im talking about is people feeling hurt and thus sitting infront of their PC's deciding punishments, living 'in their ideal world'. If you have some sound contribution to make to help lock someone up then make it, but fantasising about how it could of been and should of been is a waste of time. I see so many people old and young talking about this sort of stuff some out of hate and anger others out of some political need to justify their actions not to surrender to anyone, others just so they can blame everyone else for their downfall in bhakti except themselves. A few actually try and learn form the past in a construictive way. Thats the danger i see. (This doesnt mean that you dont report a molester!)

Because he falls down from brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Kåñëa. I agree there are a few places in that essay that he seems to give a qualification to lila and doesnt answer directly. There is also another letter I remember where prabhupada is asked a straight question whether we have seen krsna before and prabhupada says yes, just like how the son sees the father during conception or something like that. Its all a bit tricky we didnt come from brahmasayujya, neither vaikuntha, we are dreaming somewhere and we were injected too.