vijay

Attaining Perfection NBS 74 TEXT 74 TEXT vädo nävalambyaù SYNONYMS vädaù—debate; na—not; avalambyaù—to be resorted to. TRANSLATION One should not indulge in argumentative debate. PURPORT Närada discourages the egotistic wrangling spirit. One who is proud of his debating skills and eager to defeat others will lose his humility, which, as Närada says in Sütra 27, is essential for pleasing Krsna. The existence of God is not something to be proven or disproven merely by a battle of logical wits. The spiritual reality cannot be understood by material logic or the speculations of the material mind. As the Vedänta-sütra (2.1.11) declares, tarkäpratisthänät: "Logical reasoning is inconclusive." However, when a Krsna conscious preacher defends the Lord or the Vaishnavas against blasphemy, that should not be taken as vain controversy. The devotee doesn’t argue on his own account, but on Krsna’s. Also, a devotee’s preaching is not based on mental speculation, which is always imperfect, but on the perfect process of receiving knowledge from the çästra and the äcäryas. As it is said, "Mistakes, illusion, cheating, and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritative sages" (Cc. Ädi 2.86) Also, the Vaishnava äcäryas have all argued against Mäyäväda interpretations. This kind of argumentation is not to be avoided but is rather one of the duties of the madhyama-bhakta, or preacher. Krsnadäsa Kaviräja states, "A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions [concerning the philosophy of Krsna consciousness], considering them controversial, for such discussion strengthens the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Kåñëa" (Cc. Ädi 2.117). But sometimes a preacher will avoid a fight if he sees that the challenger simply wants to argue for the sake of argument. Rüpa Gosvämé once declined to debate a rascal who came to defeat him, but then Rüpa’s nephew, Jéva Gosvämé, took up the challenge. So a devotee may or may not choose to meet the challenges of the atheists and voidists, depending on the circumstances, but in any case he knows that debate and challenge do not lead to a true understanding of God. Certainly the devotee himself has no challenging spirit when he approaches the scriptures or the äcäryas. He accepts them axiomatically, beyond argument. The best method for solving one’s personal doubts is to inquire submissively from advanced Vaishnavas, who will always be able to answer in terms of sästra and reason.

I agree, gandhi and crew spent a hundred years trying to kick the westerners out, then in 50 years india is the most western in the region, they could of done that better if the british were still here. Aurangzeb and 500 years of islamic rule and 200 years of british rule, they knocked down a couple of temples a few converts, however the indian culture and traditions were followed and strong, TV in 50 years has converted most of the population to chase the materialistic fads sheding religion and culture. (hindus seem to be more susceptable to this desease as they justify it by a wishy washy philosophy)

I agree at least half of the indians would need to rellocate under my policies, thats why I would never be elected (only a stupid population would vote for me-unless they were devotees). I heard a tape by prabhupada he was asked if hypothetically we had a kingdom how should people of other religions be treated, he said they should be encouraged to worship god, but they must follow properly they wouldnt be allowed to kill cows etc thats against KC. Then he was asked about bhudists and atheiests, prabhupada said they should not be allowed to create a disturbance, he said the king should be like a farther and encourage the citizens like a father does with children, but if they cause disturbance to others then tatam, they can do that somewhere else, just like an animal creates disturbance it gets chucked back in the jungle. Anyway I heard it sometime ago it was interesting, il try and find it, prabhupada wasnt so fussed about people converting he just wanted them to sincerly try to love god in whatever form. Before we get a country we need to be able to live together as devotees and work together, then may be like the jews who got israel, or the mormons the state of utah we can show by example how a perfect society is run but dont see that happening until devotees have more faith and become more mature (including myself) but having the vision is puryfing otherwise it will never happen. Most of the muslims in india are converts the invaders were only a fraction compared to what the population of islam is in india. (2nd largest in the world) If so-called passionate hindus dont educate themselves and others about krishna conciousness, then naturally people will take the easier/simpler alternative. Kicking muslims out wont do a thing. The underlying problem is hindus not being satisfied and strong enough in their watered down versions of hinduism, theyll convert to anything that seems better its natural. Tackling the symptoms is pointless, the root is teach real kc thats satisfying and not watered down, clear concise and practical. (I guess something like the muslims but in a nicer way)

If you ask me, I think all cow killers should be exiled from india whether muslim, christian or hindu, just like maharaj pariksit banished Kali. All those who misinterpret the vedas knowingly should leave india as they are the corrupters of so-called hinduism, which dilutes and weakens real knowledge. All those who promote MTV,gambiling,illicit sex, and intoxication and other so-called nonsence in the holy land should leave. All citizens regardless of faith should follow these and should be encouraged to pray to god in a sincire non secterian way. Bhudism should be banished as its inherently atheistic, even though the people may be nice. Krishna conciousness should be taught at all schools. Anyone that doesnt like this they can leave to. Then we can have a nice god concious society. Haribol

Regarding the natural death theory: it is only that. who can say for sure? Inida is the no. one exported of leather in the world and no one will ever convince my kali yuga mind that all of those animals died a "natural" death! > We had better stop using mridangas and camaras, then /images/graemlins/smile.gif >By the way, did you know that there are cow parts in computer keyboards? >And steering wheels, and about a zillion other common ordinary household items? What about common ordinary ply wood that is held together by GLUE, as in from animal bones. What to do? > My take on it is that in this wretched age of kali, where every endeavor is tainted, we need to know that there is going to be smoke with every fire and do our best to minimize and adjust. It is basically a hopeless situation for the false purist and a wonderful opportunity for the devotees of the Lord. Just get out of here and Go Back to Home, to Godhead! Dear prabhus, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. First of all I beg to ask for forgiveness as I am very small devotee compared to who are discussing here. Still I am writing what is in my heart. Please be patient and when ever you have time read this letter fully rather than deleting it just by seeing the size. We all know and agree that there are millions of parts tainted with animal(cow) slaughter. My aim of this discussion as not making a law or blaming any authority for this anomaly. But are we as Vaishnavas not supposed to raise awareness amongst us and population in general about cruelty along with KC awareness. Did Srila Prabhupada not in beginning days allowed devotees to eat as much gulab jams and chappaties as they liked. But after some time he told them to control and devotees complained why to limit. He told you did not complain then why now. The point being as we become devotees we are supposed to raise awareness and not remain there under name of kaliyuga. Similary did Srila Prabhupada not discouraged the use of leather items. In one conversation (10 sept 1973 Stockholm end part) he says that we use mrdangas of hide made from naturally dead cows. So what to do now for us. I am giving some real eg from my life and devotees known. As I have some role to play in kitchen here in Mumbai I am stressing to get more and more organic food for our needs. And yes if look for alternatives they are there. We are slowly getting people who grow such food. I don't believe any labeled organic food as I have no faith on commercial establishment. They are full of corruption. I look for individual farmers check their mentality and whether are they ready that my men will come for random checks on there farms. Where there is will there is way. Is it not devotees who have to raise awareness in preventing cruelty. As we raise awareness the supply comes. If all devotees over the world demand for more natural products certainly supplies will come. This is what I found in my search for real self verified organic supplies. I started coming across more of such people. More than that the genuine framers who grow such food out of philosophical conviction they get enthused to carry on against all odds and they get a sure market for there produce. So its symbiotic. Similarly for mrdangas If demand them to be made of naturally dead cows and buy after full faith and check then supply will follow. But ball is in our court that one of us do go around and see where we can get mrdangas from really naturally dead cows. So its not Kaliyuga its we who have to do some going around and stick to our standard. If we demand and buy only those mrdangas supply will come. Initially there may be some shortage but as market demands supply will come. Those who make such mrdangas will be enthused and encougaged. They won't have to worry for market. We will fight against Kali yuga together. And we will get Karma free mrdangas more pleasing to lord. About Varakh just as our devotee (I think president) from Jaipur informed us that he has seen people make it using cow leather with wax paper in between. So we have alternative. we are not forced to but Varakh(silver foil) made in intestine but if we insist on made in leather from naturally dead cow then supply will come. Yes even devotees are less in no. compared to human population but still as devotees together we are quiet big market to get thing the way we need. We don't have to wait for making a group or association of devotees but we individually just stick to our demands and spell it out to suppliers every time. If all devotees do it the message will pass to manufactures. My dear friend, Manger of Nigdi(Pune) preaching center removed all plastic bags from shoe stall and replaced them with cloth bags. He was aware and did the change. It cost him initially a bit but all the money went to a devotee who stiched the bags and not to plastic business. Over all it was not costly in long run. I personally don't use plastic bags. I carry metal containers which are bit heavy but light on karma. Goodness is represented by knowledge. that is we have to be aware and actually try to avoid such tainted items to the max. I am one who raised the point about cow bones in film roles. Yet still I might use them for taking photos to be printed in SP's books/BTG. But what I was trying was when I see is for any incident or yatra etc there are 10's or 100's devotees clicking photos. How long these photos are used and in what way of all the photos clicked being used. And after short time (1-3 months) these photos are neglected and get a place in one corner latter to progress to dustbin. Also so much of photos make us behave offensively towards them by neglecting them throwing them here and there etc. Is our Bhakti really dependent on so many photos? My point being everything has utility but we have to avoid extravaganza and its we devotees who have to raise awareness amongst us. or will the non devotees who even have basic knowledge of scriptures supposed to do it. Or should we as devotees go on acting in ignorance. One last point. Going closer to nature doesn't always cost more in fact it saves overall. For e.g. I started using cow toothpowder for my brushing 4 years back. It costs me RS 15 for 5 months against tooth paste which used to cost me RS 300 for same time. How this awareness spreads. My own life experiences. I gave on plastics few years back. (I support devotees especially foreign who require bottled water). I stopped using plastic bags and bottles in my life and instead had metal containers and glass bottle. Whole of my ashram ridiculed me and laughed at me but I perceived silently. After 3 years many are now following me. Some are still not but now they are quieted and know that I am right. I don't need to make law but increase awareness. I even did not speak but I carried on. Others just observed me and learnt. Sorry for telling about "I" but I am telling real incident. MY WHOLE POINT BEING YES KALIYUGA IS WIDESPREAD BUT ITS NO REASON TO NOT INCREASE OUR KNOWLEDGE (AWARENESS) AND ACT ON IT AND SET AN E.G. FOR OTHERS RATHER THAN ACCEPTING PRODUCTS TAINTED WITH BLOOD, VIOLENCE AND TORTURE. IT WORKS. WE DON'T HAVE TO DECREASE PREACHING AND SERVICE FOR IT WE HAVE TO SEARCH AND CREATE MARKET AND SUPPLY COMES. Your Servant Madan Gopal Das Sorry for long letter but I just wanted to share. Actually I have cut it quite short. Also this exchange beginning in holistic health forum even sticking to non violent natural products help keep our health nicely. If any one is offended please excuse me.

Thanks for the links, facinating.

This is a good site dedicated to india_egypt connection. The egyptians themselevs asy they came form the east by sea. http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_and_Egypt.htm

As the devotees are saying its between you and krishna, everything external is a tool for you to come closer to krishna. My personal relisation is the books are there to get you closer to krishna, the vaishnavas are there for you to get towards krishna, your siksa gurus are there for you to get to krishna. In the beggining stages we may feel that its only our guru that is our via medium to krishna, some people may feel its the books, however as we advance and become more humble we relise knowledge can be gotten from other seniour vaishnavs too, as we advance and humble our selves more then we relise we can see krishna through less seniour vasihnavs and even karmis, and we start seeing lessons in nature, then when we are truly humble we start to hear paramatma. Everything is a tool to get towards krishna dont become attached to the tool itself only attached in the sense that its used for krishna.

Please see attachment for pictures of vedic priests in egypt the founder of the pyramids from the book Long Missing Links (Reproduced from page 38 Bible didctionary appened to the holy bible edited by the american revision commitee) Photocopy from the british library.

Heres another a cow at bhaktivedanta manor that continues to give milk. http://www.krishnatemple.com/homepage_extras/july2005_newsbulletin.shtm "Draupadi the cow, born at Bhaktivedanta Manor is six years old this year. Three and a half years ago she gave birth to a male calf. Just after a cow gives birth, usually that is the time when a her milk yield is the highest. Then, one year after than, the yield naturally decreases. However, Gaura prabhu of the goshalla department explained that in Draupadi's case something remarkable has happened: "Her milk yield has actually been increasing! Today she is providing the temple with no less than 17 litres a day. It's a small miracle!" Gaura then described Draupadi's character: "She is a very healthy and strong cow, and therefore sometimes aggressive. That is perhaps why this year all the cows in the barn have accepted her as the new head, even though she younger than many of the others."

"We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna". - Letter, November 17, 1970. "(H)e has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna". - Lecture in Tokyo, April 20, 1972. "Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Personality of Godhead." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.1.3.

So if a devotee doesnt fall down form vaikuntha, and i understand there is the seed of devotion when we fall from tatashta, what is meant by constitutional position? Do we already have a form which is innate in us or is it not fixed?

Thanks, hopefully I'll see him again one day once i get a hold of his contact details.

Is Gopavrindapal dasa the same as b.v giri swami who's former name was Gopavrindapal or is it another Gopavrindapal prabhu? Only asking as I used to know b.v giri swami when he was in london before sanayas a very nice devotee.

May be we should also make sure the truth is spoken for someones benifit to get them closer to krishna, not for our own egos, ie pointing out a vaishnavas anarthas might be truthful but is it done in a helpful way or an egoistic way. ie to boost ones self, ones instiutution, religion etc. I think krishna sees the offensive mentality rather than the words spoken.

Its nice to talk about it doesnt matter what organisation you are from, but organisation means a group of devotees with a certain mood and emphasis. I remember being on a train journey to jaganatha puri and his holiness puri maharaj was in the same carriage with us, i spoke to his secrtary for a while and his whole perspective was on how iskcon doesnt conform to standards set out by bhaktisidhanta maharaj, giving examples of how prabhupada didnt give the full teachings etc. I can imagine the mood of the rest of the followers, ive seen examples of this quite alot although there are exceptions. I can understand this as many of prabhupads godbrothers do not take srila prabhupada as his diciples take him which is natural. Prabhupada is the founder acarya of iskcon, he created the gbc and emphasised his books to be read. Now going to another matha the guru will naturally have no obligation to follow the gbc that prabhupada desired nor emphasis on his books, and obviously this was srila prabhupadas desire even though there are instances where prabhupada was okay for a few diciples to go to other godbrothers or work outside of iskcon(mostly due to the situation as quotes need a context which is conviently missed out in most cases), the general mood of prabhupada is clearly to follow him as instructed many times, with many more quotes than the exceptions. Naturally if the case is krishna prem or iskcon and if they are mutally exclusive for the individual then obviously better to go for krishna prem, however if one wants to satisfy the many desires prabhupada had about the mission and organisation which is the mood of mahaprabhu and wants to do it from within and think this will lead to krishna prem then this is the better choice as both the prime instruction of krishna prem and the sub instructions can be followed again depending on the desires and capability of the indviduals.

"Guest" The above is not my version or translation, its something I found which has a different verse to what was orignally given at least this verse can be tracked down as the edition is given, Ive asked for where the original verse comes from what edition etc, if you know this then let me know, useful to also provide the actual sanskrit or verse with diacritcs. Anyway ive asked for any help that can be given to track down the critical edition as stated above if you can then please do so, so proper verification can take place. PS. Im not a swaminarayan hater, this is a forum and ive questioned whether he is above krishna like it is claimed by his followers, this verse still does not provide proof of that, but may at least validate an avtar or saktiavesh avtar if true.

Kulapavana prabhu, sorry for my out burst yesterday, get moody before I go to sleep. I agree that boiling the milk is needed and there is a problem with disillusioned devotees, my only point is that her words are not hollow as she has tried to do something about it and it may not be in her power to change everything yet. Prabhupada advised preaching and its purifying, he himself did it and told others to do it. Im sure if ISKCON was ideal it would be more powerful, but it doesnt mean that all preaching stops until ISKCON is fully sorted which will never happen. To be a leader is not just their job, while we act like the victims, mahaprabhu and prabhupada wants us all to be leaders, to whatever capacity we can, and if we dont take that service others with less potency may. "Guest" "And if you're going to take the hypocrisy route, that we can't judge other devotees, that we should only be concerned about ourselves, then it only makes sense that we have to apply the same principle for "outside" devotees and leaders. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. I've seen you criticize Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and the various branches of the Gaudiya Math, using Sivarama Swami's book to back it up. Basically, a blanket rejection of the benefits their association may provide." I think thats totally different, i hope i havent critised those devotees, but the fact is prabhupada generally advised Iskcon memebers to stay away from his god brothers, this is not critisim of them, but following prabhupadas desire. It wasnt a blanket rejection as he allowed us to approach some of the godbrothers for certain help. Thats a whole other ball game.

I found the verse on the net but with a specifyed edition of where it was found which is different, can you tell me which edition of the skand purana the one you found is from. http://216.92.85.60/encyclopedia/Swaminarayan/ Sahajanand Swami (Swaminarayan) was a Narayana and Krishna bhakta considered by his followers to be Narayana Himself, Rama, Krishna, etc. being his avataras. Swaminarayan sampradaya stems from the Ramanuja sampradaya, which holds Lord Narayana to be supreme and Krishna to be an avatar. In his main work called Shikshapatri (108) he writes: "That ishvara is Shi Krishna who is PraBrahma Bhagwan Purushottam and our most cherished deity (istadeva). He is worthy of being worshipped by us all (upasya). He is the cause of all manifestations and incarnations." Commenting on this verse, Shatanand Muni writes in Arthdipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya): "That live (saakshat) God (bhagvan) Krishna who is above kshar and akshar, appeared from Bhakti through Dharma as Swaminarayan; assumed a human body on the earth like a dramatist (natta). That Krishna whilst observing the (human) dharmas of an Acharya speaks in third person (parokshavann) but that Krishna is none other than Himself." This verse is used to prove his Godhood:[1] 43 Dharmadeva tada murtau, narnarayanatmana Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha 44 Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja with this translation: “When the asuras who were killed by Myself and Arjuna begin to spread wickedness on earth, I will be born in a Brahmin family to Dharmadev and Murti from Nar Narayana. I, with many other rishis, will receive a shaap (curse) from a Muni to come on the earth to a Samved Brahmin family to protect the religion from evil gurus and rulers.” (Vasudeva Mahatmya 18.43-44 of Skanda Purana, Vishnu Khanda) The complete reference in the Venkatesvara edition of Skanda Purana is 2.9.18.43-44 (2.9 is Vasudeva Mahatmya): 43 dharma-devaat tadaa bhaktaad aham naaraayano munih janisye kosale dese bhuumau hi saamago dvijah 44 muni-saapaan nrtaam praaptaan rsiims taata tathoddhavam tato 'vitaasurebhyo 'ham sad-dharmam sthaapayann aja It is mentioned that he will establish sad-dharma; but there is no name of a mother (if her name was "Bhakti", then the word bhaktaad cannot refer to her, because this is the ablative singular ending of a masculine noun; for bhakti it would have to be bhaktyaah or bhakteh); Kali_Yuga is not mentioned. 43 "From Dharma-deva, then, from the devotee, I, Naaraayana-muni, shall take birth on this earth, in the land of Kosala, indeed, as a braahmana, a singer of the Sama Veda." 44 "O Brahma, when cursed by a muni, some rsis take birth as human beings, I will protect them from the demons and I will establish the principles of religion."

"Wouldn't it be nice if you practiced the same, as it applies to devotees connected to branches of the Gaudiya Math? (Many of whom are/were connected to Iskcon?) Do one's achievements have to appear in BTG, like Urmila's, before one is validated as a devotee worthy of association? " What are you on about, whats this got to do with "devotees being worthy of association", The simple point is devotees who have done their best (I dont care in iskcon or out) have a right to speak about whats dear to them, no matter whether someone else judges that they are not good enough or have not done enough to speak. (i.e the article which appears on the begining of this thread). If you feel someone has critisised another devotee unjustly then say so, i know urmila mataji therefore im expressing my objection to a statement, you can do the same. Haribol

"so people like Urmila d.d. should first fix our own problems before we start "fixing" the world problems. These guys have no clue how hollow thieir lectures are.." I think that critisism of Urmila Mataji is unfair, she too was a mother in the movement and had a very difficult time in iskcon like many other women because firstly she was a woman and secondly she had children. She helps and encourages many parents to look after children, and she her self has run a school for many years trying to help the kids in our movement, she has done alot for the kids in the movement more than most so if anyone has a right to say anything about childcare then its her, please dont lump everyone in one category, otherwise its your words that seem more hollow than hers. "Urmila Devi Dasi (Edith E. Best) joined ISKCON in 1973 in Chicago. Her primary work has been in the area of education. In 1982-83 in Detroit, Michigan, she and her husband started an ISKCON primary school, which gradually grew to include secondary students, where she served as Principal for eight years. She went on to found another primary and secondary school in North Carolina in 1990, where she continues to be the Principal. Urmila devi dasi has compiled Vaikuntha Children, a guidebook for education in ISKCON and is currently writing and coordinating the development of a Krsna conscious academic curriculum for primary and secondary students. She has for many years written on the education column for ISKCON's Back to Godhead magazine, where she is also associate editor. "

Philosophical debate has been engaged in since the time of vyas to sankarcharya etc its a part of "hinduism" theres a whole scripture dedicated to debate, I wont go over your arguments as they've been addressed on this thread over and over again. "If any of you would like evidence in the form of literature, quotes from the purans etc.. i am more then willing to answer any questions posed, please leave details of discrepency and i will mail you back. I can get the answers. " Anyway if you have any idea where i can get a critical edition of the skand purana i would be grateful the internets no help )-:, that would be a good starting point. Also if its possible to get the verse in sanskrit or with diacritic marks else its tough to trans-literate, (thats what ive been told when i tried to get the verse translated). Thanks.

Sorry babhuru prabhu, I should of read the posts properly

varnasankara definition doesnt need to mean illicit sex but marriage between incompitible/nonideal varnas. Arjunas argument is that these women will be forced to take shelter of other men who do not have the samskaras or moral code upbringing of the ksytriyas thus leading to a degradation in population. Just a thought

Thought some may be interested to see this picture last year during a pandava sena trip to nrsinga setra. Ive been told there is one which is much more detailed in krishnas features, will try to find it. http://www.simhachalam.de/index.php?id=75#273