history_lover

I do not understand why you say that your are unlucky.God has given you good physical and mental health-which help you focus on Him and be devoted.There may be people around you who do not have/show much spirituality, but how would that affect your ideas? Why are you even worried about who is staring at you when you go to the Raghavendraswamy Matha? You are going there to meditate and pray and get connected with God, nothing around you should even matter.If you wish to have spiritual discussions, you will find more people here(on this site) than you can handle /images/graemlins/smile.gif Why don't you start a topic of conversation-I'm sure someone will respond. God be with you H.L.

I looked at the website that you have mentioned, but I dont see any online links to the story. There is a Mahabharatha by Kamala Subramaniam, it looks more like an Amara Chitra Katha from the outside. Is that the book you are talking about? Where do you get the online extracts from? Many Thanks.

This is indeed a wonderful description. Where did you get it from? I have never read that the Pandavas actually lamented Karnas death. Thank you for posting this. With all this discussion,I did not notice the time at all. Are there any other books on the Mahabaratha that anyone can suggest? I just read R.K. Narayans version, but it is abridged, and it does not really portray the essence of the epic.

I guess the best person to asnwer your question would be the guest who posted that opinion. Here's my point of view. Krishna was born with a purpose-that was to eliminate evil(from what I've understood) and to reduce the burden on Mother Earth.Although he knew that Karna was the Eldest, he had to keep that a secret so that the Pandavas would fight the battle, and those who were destined to be killed ,would be. That is the only possible explanation I can think of. It is unfair on Karna, definitely. Another thing that strikes me is that none of the Pandavas except for Yudhishtira, showed any remorse or sorrow when they got to know about Karna. Even Yudhishtira was not lamenting the way Duryodhana was. Their reactions-or lack thereof, are surprising and disappointing. Any word on Karna yet? /images/graemlins/smile.gif HL

"Yes, I agree that Draupadi knew how evil Duryodhana was." Well, I disagree with you here. The sins of the Pandavas do not balance the sins of Duryodhana on any scale. Draupadi was intelligent. She gave him no quarter. So many people did. Was their faith rewarded with an expectant change? No. To turn the cheek for someone trying to kill you is usually a mistake. >> Yes,you are right about that. "Now why do you presume that I do not know anything about women?" A question with a question? >> Well, let me answer your original question by saying that I do happen to know something about how a woman's mind works.

Sideline: Another sad character is Ekalavya, the Nishada… an archer who impressed even Drona - as the best. >>Yes, it is sad how people forget Ekalavya-in fact I had totally forgotten about him, till now. " …and he was never given a chance to exhibit his talent" What do you mean? Duryodhana fixed that. >>how? even after he was made King of Anga, they still wanted to know his parentage.And once that became known, Bhima started taunting him and told him to hold the reins of a chariot,sicne that was all he was fit for. And then the sun set, so there was no chance for Karna and Arjuna to have a duel. "Karnas challenge in fact made Arjuna wary, … "They also never recognize his talent as a maharathi." Not so sure about this. I think it was just that the Pandavas felt secure in their posiiton and support of Krsna. (Arjuna accomplished the impossible many times over). >>yes,what you say does make sense "During the swayamvara,…" Well, he was known as a lowborn man… despite his prowess. After all, he could not surpass Arjuna. Arjuna and his clan were known as contenders for the earth. Karna? No chance! >> Agreed. He was lowborn. But Karna explains that he only wanted to show people that Duryodhana friends who could take up the challenge. And he also says that he could never marry Draupadi as it would be a Pratiloma marriage.Draupadi could have given him a chance after she heard this. And why could he not surpass Arjuna? In the war,when he and Arjuna met, if Karna did not have all those curses upon him, he could have probably won, the way he was fighting.(this is not a fancy, by the way) Now what do you know of women and the choices they make? (not being disrespectful… just pragmatic) >> Now why do you presume that I do not know anything about women?-not being disrespectful, just pragmatic /images/graemlins/smile.gif "When Duryodhana visits Indraprastha…" Oh give me a break! Draupadi knew Duryodhana had already attempted many assination attempts. she should show mercy to someone determined to kill them at all cost? >> Yes, I agree that Draupadi knew how evil Duryodhana was.But does that give her a right to insult a guest, especially knowing that he has been taunted as "a blind man's son" throughout his life by Bhima? Think about how frustrated Duryodhana would have felt, hearing that comment all throughout his life(even at the swayamvara), and now from a princess whom he could not win. "He instigated the disrobing of Draupadi etc…" Karna did not instigate the disrobing of Draupadi. He made some supportive comments, but he did not initiate it. >> Actually,C.Rajagopalachari and K.M. Munshi both say that Karna initiated it. I'm quoting both authors: "O Vikarna,forgetting that there are elders in this assembly,you lay down the law....Even the clothes they have on are now Shakunis property.O Dushasana,seize the garments of the Pandavas and the robes of Draupadi and hand them over to Shakuni"(Rajagopalachari,Mahabharatha Pg 94) "Vikarna, you think that you are wiser than all the Elders gathered here,don't you?...The five brothers have no right to wear even the clothes they have on. Dushasana,remove the clothes from these five men and also from Draupadi,and surrender them to their lawful owner,Duryodhana" (Munshi,Krishnavatara VII,Pg 133)

well, thats why I'm mentioning your name in the subject. Most people appear as guests and dont have a name.

I'm sorry- could you plese point out the facts and the things I have imagned in my reply? I would like to correct myself if I was wrong in my summation. One more thing. This was not a rebuttal to your posting. I was replying to another person(guest pg 1) who said he hated Karna due to his behavior in the throne hall

I would not call their relationship "special". But it was important since that was the only way Bhishma could die. It is interesting how K.M. Munshi has intertwined Krishna, Amba and Drona in the conversion of Drupadas daughter(Amba) into Shikandi by the Yaksha Sthoonakarna(under Dronas orders)

Before you continue bashing up Karna, maybe you should look at the story of his life-just once. From the moment he has been introduced into the story, Karna was humiliated and put down. When he challenged Arjuna in the display of arms, Bheema gave him the title of Sutaputra, and he was never given a chance to exhibit his talent.Karnas challenge in fact made Arjuna wary, and Arjuna even in the war was worried only about Karna. From that moment, all the Pandavas, except Yudhistira call him Sutaputra, and dont give him an ounce of respect(as a human being, forget about the caste). They also never recognize his talent as a maharathi. During the swayamvara, Draupadi did not even give Karna a chance to take up the challenge.She could have easily said "You can try, but I will not be able to marry you even if you win." That would have been the polite thing to do. Instead,she arrogantly insluted him in front of all the other kings. Put yourself in his place-how would you feel if you are trying to prove that you have a talent, and someone(that too a woman) insults you in that manner? When Duryodhana visits Indraprastha, and falls into the "magic" lake, Draupadi guffaws in fromt of all the servants and calls him a "blind man's son". Was that not wrong? Did she not inslut both Duryodhana and Dritharashtra(indirectly). In fact, due to her behavior at that time, Duryodhana's hatred to the Pandavas increaed further, and he wanted to humiliate them in the same way that Draupadi humiliated him. When he tells Karna about this, Karna naturally agrees to support him in his humiliation of the Pandavas. All these events lead to Karnas behavior at the throne hall. Of course, it was completely wrong of him to call Draupadi names(refering to her as a woman held in common by five men). He instigated the disrobing of Draupadi etc. But he definitely regretted his actions.He was also NEVER in favor of the game of dice. Can you give me one instance where Karna supports the cheating ways of Shakuni? He does not support the buring of the palace at Vanaravata(hope I got the name right). He always used to tell Duryodhana that a true Kshatriya fought his battles in the battelfield, NOT with dice or through cheating. But Shakuni used to brainwash Duryodhana and thus Karnas honourable intentions had no effect on him.

Actually during those times, human beings could be regarded as property. Look at all the servants(daasis and dasaas) in the palaces. Were they not property? Their position was similar to the black slaves in America. A daasis son(unless born to a king-for example Vidura) would be born into slavery. Kings could gift their servants to another king.They could indiscriminately have children with daasis, using them like property. Dhritharashtra also had a son with Gandhari's chief daasi while Gandhari was pregnant.Ambika sent her Daasi instead of herself, when she had to undergo Niyoga with Veda Vyasa the second time. So there is nothing demonic about Duryodhana regarding Draupadi as his property. In fact, Yudhishtira was demonic since he pledged his brothers and his wife as HIS property- why is no one accusing him? I am not supporting the fact that Duryodhana and his friends humiliated a woman, but what were the Pandavas doing at that time? Their duty as husbands was to protect their wife-whether they were kings or slaves was irrelevant. When a husband himself cannot protect his wife, why should anyone else be blamed if they ill-treat her? Yudhishtira himself did not respect his wife at that moment. Of course,the reason he had was that he wanted to prevent a war(based on Rishi Vyasa's premonition that Yudhishtira would be the cause of a war thirteen years later). Secondly, he wanted all the Pandavas and Draupadi to be together even in bondage. But he disrespected his wife, in order to prevent a war, so he set the path for other people also to disrespect her.