harishkumar09

According to Madhva the higer souls are able to comprehend even more qualities of Vishnu and they meditate on these qualities that we cannot even comprehend.

According to Swami Vivekananda , Prophet Mohammad practised kundalini Yoga without a Guru and hence suffered grieviously.And thats why there are so many terrrible things in the Koran apart from the good things.Swami gives Mohammad's example as a warning to mankind about the risks of practicing Yoga without a Guru. Internal evidence of the Koran itself suggests Swami might have been right. For example Mohammad admits to seeing all types of things , hearing voices and tells his wife he is very frightened.She assures him its the angel gabriel speaking to him and he calms down after that.Once he admits all his revelations were due to Satan and not God , and later they were corrected by God.Based on this episode in the Koran Salman Rushdie wrote a novel , The Satanic Verses.Immediately fatwas were issued asking him to be murdered for blaspheming the prophet !!! For saying that the Prophet , who is the most perfect creation of God , who is venerated as the perfect human by muslims all over the world was possessed by Satan !!! Most muslims hardly read the Koran and if they did they would leave that religion.

http://snipurl.com/m5pv

###It's because of the stupidity and foolishness of people like Mahatma Gandhi that the Hindus will always suffer in their own country.

The Coming Troubles Of late I am seeing a rather disturbing phenomenon.Ever since the controversy in Karnataka triggered by one Poornachandra Tejasvi there have been increasing attacks on Madhva and his alleged treatment of Shudras. The trouble in Karnataka started was triggered by the grandson of the Rashtra Kavi of Karnataka Kuvempu , who demanded that the name of "Madhva" be removed from the Karnataka National Song for he was against the Shudras and that a modern self-respecting nation should not have his name in their National Song. He claimed that his own grand father venerated Shankara and his advaita philosophy for its egalitarian outlook and so the poet's own opinion needs to be taken into account when deciding about the expurgation. The intellectuals gathered around him alleged that Madhva had condemned Shudras to eternal damnation and such a person should not be venerated. This kicked up a storm and there was a rebuttal offered by many Madhvas who came out to defend Madhva and his philosophy.The Pejawar Swami himself came out in the defence and stated that Madhva did not believe in birth based caste system and only gave importance to qualification.He has toured all the places to assure dalits that there was salvation for them in Madhvas philosophy. I had thought after this storm everything would settle down and it was all over. But I was later surprised and shocked while searching through the Sulekha articles , when I came across posts accusing Madhva of not giving Shudras the right to study the Vedas or perform Vedic rituals.In fact this charge was made against him even when the controversy in Karnataka broke out. I am unable to understand all this , for all three Acharyas , including Adi Shankara , were against the Shudras studying the Vedas and performing rituals.In fact it was Shankara who started this trend and the remaining two who followed were of a reformist tendency.In fact Madhva gave women the right to study the Vedas.Swami Vivekananda has praised Madhva for this.Since the Yuga Dharma has to be followed Madhva and Ramanuja continued the Shankarite trend of not allowing Shudras to study the Vedas or perform rituals. The reason I am bringing all this up is the continuing rise of hostility against Madhva in certain quarters.Of course one obvious reason for this is the rise in popularity of Madhva , which has created envy in the minds of Shankara's followers , who at the best of times had no respect for Madhvaas and at the worst of times contemplated their extermination. They were smug to see advaita becoming the philosophy of India , their propounder venerated as the greatest of philosophers.Now their position is being threatened and they are increasingly feeling insecure. Thanks to the rise of Madhva philosophy , in no small measure due to the contribution of ISKCON , they have come to realise they may not enjoy the position of superiority for ever.Naturally they are anxious to put up a defence in favour of advaita and even malign Madhva. It was a well known fact the Karnataka controversy had the backing of the Smartha brahmins of that state. Now with the caste question increasingly raised in India and many Hindu Nationalistic Intellectuals ( HNI ) accepting that problem lies within , and not without and that Islam and Christianity are merely the symptoms of the disease latent within the hindu society , the caste question will be brought to even greater prominence.Any perusal of Hindu Nationalist documents today clearly points to caste being a major problem with hindu society and the main reason for the conversion of lower caste hindus to other faiths.Many fear that major conversions may take place which deplete the hindu population with disastrous consequences. There is lot of debate and discussion and thinking regarding the caste question and many alternatives have been suggested.Many of these Hindu Nationalist Intellectuals and organisations have petitioned the Shankaracharyas to change their stance with regard to the birth based caste system and also give the Shudras the right to study the Vedas. This is due to the status that the Shankaracharyas enjoy as the Spiritual leaders of the hindu society. But the Shankaracharyas are not willing to budge from their rigid position. A time may come when ISKCON will have to offer its philosophy as an alternative to the hindu society.It has already done so , but in the near future it may have to do so to prevent large scale migration out of the hindu society and retain numerical strength and also to provide spiritual salvation.But since most Hindu nationalist Intellectuals are of the advaitic persuasion , who consider bhakthi as something for emotionally weaker people and regard Advaita as the highest revealed truth , a clash is inevitable. As Hindu Nationalists rise in power and influence , so will advaita philosophy.This poses a real social and spiritual danger to the hindu society and ultimately to the human race as the world looks upon India as the spiritual perceptor.Nothwithstanding the fact that the advaita of the HNI is not shankara-advaita , stil the potential for social and spiritual discord exists. For all problems of hindu society may be traced to the advaita philosophy and the disharmony it has created , is creating , and will create.Thus even a watered down version of Advaita philosophy cannot save India from social and spiritual disharmony. So it is essential that we become prepared for what I consider to the Final Face-Off...Vaishnavism vesus Advaita which is bound to take place. And given the past record of the advaitins , they will not hestitate to use all unfair methods including violence to get their things done.They have done it in the past and will do so in the future.They burnt buddhists alive , massacred jains in large numbers and attempted to assassinate Ramanuja and Madhva.The latter perosnaly gave a fitting reply , breaking the bones of the assassins , and that was the end of it all.But devious techniques like stealing the reference books of Madhva from his library were resorted to.The advaitin attitude is simply , "If you can't beat them , kill them" and there is little to believe things have changed. ISKCON should realise its position in a hindu rashtra.Its activities will be severely curtailed and its leaders may even be killed , incarcerated and even driven out of the country.Let us not forget that in the past Shankaracharyas have used their political position to curtail the freedom of Srila Prabhupada and limit his influence. People who forget history are condemned to repeat it. So the best thing is to be prepared for it.Krishna says "tasmaat sarveshu kaaleshu maam anusmara yudhya ca" "At all times to come , remember me and fight" We better keep our swords sharpened and ready.

I would like to know the and mailing lists which you to and post so i cna also increase my knowledge of M's philosophy.

I also accept its time we ended this discussion Firstly i am not saying iskcon is right in everything.Secondly I am pleased to hear from you that there are madhwas who denounce semitics and in fact you are the first onw I have seen who has used harsh language against semetics. Lest you consider me a greenhorn , let me assure you my grandfather study undera guru and was a great scholar and one of my uncles is studying under a guru and holds a top post in ABMM and knows scholars very well.My grandfather was a close friend of Dr.B.N.K.Sharma and he is a family friend. Yet inspite of mixing with such scholarly people in my life and the many bhakta friends of my uncles , i have never come across anyone who denounced the semeitcs , even at the height of the hindutva movement when passion was running high in the country agaisnt muslims and islam. Whenever I raised the question of semetic religions I would find these Madhva scholars avoiding the topic or saying "Atleast these people believe in God , they don't say I am god".This is the common reply. But the political realities of the society demands that we oppose evil.Krishna says we must oppose evil.I remember madhva saying its the duty of all men esp kshatriyas to defend the weaka dn destroy evil.If you remember well , Bhimasena did the same.He did not simply confine himself to individual attainment. Its like saying "Go ahead and embezzele millions of dollars , coz its not as terrible as committing mass murder" I still am not ready to cheat anybody financially. I am not willing to praise the semetics coz they dont say I am god , coz there is a greater villain in advaitins. I will take sword to defend my fellow countrymen against bloodthirsty semetics , even if the victims be advaitins for they have the right to preach , even if it means i have to go to hell.Rather than cheer the believers killing the advaitins. I feel immensely satisfied for having met a semetic denouncing madhva. Thanks a lot !!!

Iskconites behave like cranks when it comes to semetic religions.Their extreme hatred for advaita means that if anybody says God and Soul are different they will worship him. During the Indo-Pak peace process they invited a pakistani to the iskcon temple in bangalore.He "worshipped" the shrine and when he was leaving told the media , that the place was nice but he stuck with his religious beliefs.It was an insult to all vaishnavas. Krishna says "avajananthi maam mudha"..Fools deride me...this fool derided Krishna and went aways scot free bcos islam is dualistic and therefore good according to iskconites.

###ISKCON too has been harsh on Hinduism, while praising blood-thirsty Islam and Christianity as valid paths to Krishna. In what way are they different from Madhvas who, as you claim, go easy on semitic religions but attack their own? ### I agree with this point of yours and have bashed ISCKON many times over this point.

#BOY!!!! this shows your total lack of acquaintance on Madhva's philosophy. Not that I am boosting of knowing everything . I too am a neophyte, not an expert :-). # I am talking about the impression given by maadhvas to westerners.I know Christinaity and Madhva's philosophy are different.I am not talking about NyayaSudhas denunciation of semitic religions , I am talking about modern day madhwas and their near silence in condemning semitic religions and heavy attack on ISKCON. If you are intelligent enough you will realise that the discussion is about present day madhwa attitudes towards ISKCON and semitic religions.It seems to be disproportionate.

and the two guests are I guess are different people.No time to register or what ?

##If you will accept this, you will realize that individual attainment is the most plausible option you have. Not that you do not have to preach, but if you are targetting global harmony, then you are way off. ## Then why did he say that service to society is the tax to be paid to god ? There are social goals or one can formulate them. And I am not saying ISKCON is 100% accurate and tallies with M's philosophy.I am saying have a larger perspective. Do we see a similar harshness in denouncing Islam and Christianity ? The Isha Upanishad quote about criticising false knowledge seems to be utilized only for bashing ISKCON. Is it cowardice at work here ? The reason most westerneres and even indians believe Madhva was influenced by Nestorian Christians in the Goa is because ot total lack of criticism of christianity or islam and the heavy criticism of advaita philosophy and similarities like eternal damnation found in both the religions. Even Islam and Christianity are examples of false knowledge , to refuse to acknowledge it and condemn it is as much a sin , if not more , as not condemning ISKCON.

Now Krishna says "na buddhi bedham..." so don't disturb the minds of the masses with too much of philosophy.Clearly M's system cannot be preached to the masses due to potential for misunderstanding.So a lighter version of the philosophy such as chaitanya's becomes necessary. It therefore becomes our bounden duty to support it. Rather than leave the society in total darkness. If HKs were to modify their philosophy to incorporate everything that madhwa said then nobody will take it and we are back to square one.

The Larger Question In effect there is a larger question that remains unanswered. Is a philosophy only for the philsosophers ? Should not a philosophy benefit the masses ? Krishna preached the BG for all mankind.Mankind was to benefit from it.Not just the sattvic souls who are guaranteed liberation.That Krishna favours human welfare over above just the salvation of the sattvic souls can be realised from a number of verses. "Though shall wage a terrible war and encourage men to undertake all kinds of human works" "The intelligent should perform nishkama kama , but not expect the masses to do the same" "Even the sinfulest of men can attain to me by following this path" Thus mankind was to benefit from this knowledge. Now clearly Madhwa meant his philosophy to be made available to all mankind to help recover the sattvic souls born elsewhere by "accident of birth".Hence while interpreting the Isha Upanishad he declares "To darkness they go who are ignorant , to even greater darkness they go who are addicted to knowledge alone (without socially useful proselytizing)" Now the divine truth may not be available in all its perfection.Wich is better ? Should a society be perpetually cast into ignorance rather than be shown half-knowledge ? That it is better to live in ignorance and darkness rather than living in half-light ? Should we prefer darkness to little light ? And we must learn to make the difference between ignorance and falsehood.Ignorance is the lack of knowldege due to jiva-yogyatha.Falsehood is deliberate calumny spread by the demons to mislead mankind.Ramanuja could not comprehend the truth in all its glory , as he had his limitations.But is not better that a society has an advantage of his philosophy rather than live in the ignorance of advaita ? And is not the dim-light of advaita better than the darkness of buddhism ? Are we to say truth should be present in all its glory or not at all ? Even a sattvic soul will benefit from ramanujas philosophy , compared to advaita.Given the proper direction it will figure out the truth by itself. Allied powers are not angels yet common sense demanded that we support them over and above an asuric and evil hitler as democracy is better than the nazi dictatorship.Are we going to denounce everyone and uphold only the ideal birth-based varnshrama of Madhwa , which is well-nigh impossible to establish. We must realise that since mankind is impure ,divine truth cannot manifest in all its full glory.But we have to accept this and support this partial manifestation of divinity and condemn asuric philosophies and attitudes. Of course madhwas are never bothered about this world and are concerned only about individual salvation.They do not know that their philosophy can benefit the world and lead to the creation of a divine society full of joy and bliss , harmony reigning supreme and naure and mankind in perfect balance , the male and female in perfect relationship. Their main concern is moksha.You dont see a single article or paper dealing with "dvaita economics" , "dvaita management" , "dvaita education" whereas you can always find plenty of articles like "advaita & economics" , "advaita & management" , "advaita & education" .Net result is that advaitins have successfully presented their philosophy as worldy and world benefitting while the madhwas appear as a bunch of other-worldly ascetics.So more and more peopel convert to advaita endangering their own salvation and weaking the nation.That advaita has weakened the nation is unknown to madhwas as they are not concerned about the nation at all , only their perosnal mukthi. The world is real and we must also be concerned about this world.Madhwa himself says that service to the society is the tax we msut pay to enter the kingdom of god.And the highest service is to establish true knowledge in society.This act performed as an offering to God can also guarantee individual salvation.Thus individual salvation does not clash with world welfare , atleast in all forms of vaishnavism. Now clearly given the highly terse nature of madhwas philosophy and the potential for misunderstanding , its obvious some easy to understand and lighter version of the philosophy is to be made available for the welfare of the masses.Given the situation where must of us have to slog to eke out a living andno time for scriptural study in a rigorous fashion such a need assumes a high degree of importance. (A good example of the potential for misunderstanding is the belief all madhwas will get mukthi and all lower caste ppl are destined for eternal damnation.I ahve seen most people who make a cursory reading of M's philosophy to have come to such conclusion and have even seen madhwas who believe so) It was clearly keeping in mind such a need Chaitanya advented himself on this plane to preach a simpler version of M's philosophy.His system is most suitable for the hard-working masses.And given that we have so many fraudulent brahmins and lowe caste ppls with divine nature , his system of recruiting brahmins from all classes is justified.And according to the needs of the situation also possibly prevented conversions to Islam. The activities of HKs dont go against the spirit of madhwas philosophy.Madhwa gave importance to qualification and not just birth.He held a devoted chandala to be superior to a worldly minded brahmin.He gives the example of how Jabala was accepted as a brahmin as he had a pure nature.And since he also stood for the welfare of the socity , we can say chaitanya only implemented what madhwa gave as a blueprint.

I find Madhwas to be a peculiar kind of people.They themselves have done nothing to preach his philosophy.But when somebody tries to do that they nitpik on them over absolutey silly things and and crate a furore.All this when Madhva himself laid a lot of emphasis on spreading the light of knowledge in the society. For example , a many years aga a famous film star in India by name Rajinikanth , made a film on the great dvaita scholar Sri Raghavendra Swami and made him very popular amongst the masses.Much of the traffic to Mantralaya is due to him than due to anybody else.He was resurrected from obscurity and his greatness was imprinted on the social consciousness of the south indians. Yet orthodox madhwas picked up a quarrel with him over the depiction of Sri Raghavendra's wife in the movie which was said to be inaccurate , while they continued to enjoy the benefits of the pilgrim traffic. Similarly now Prabhupada has become the target for this clowns.They are angry with him for absolutely silly reasons. 1.He did not say correctly that it was not Arjuna who was the first to see the World-Vision but rather he was first among his class. 2.He wrongly says that moon is a star..etc but they seem to have let go of more fundamental problems like the HKs unwilling to explicitly accept the three-fold classification of souls and eternal damnation .HKs have not rejected them but dont seem to flaunt them either when these are important points of M's philosophy.