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Theist - That's something I used to wonder about as well. I guess the only idea I can come up with is basically what you already said. It may be possible for the mind of a pure devotee to become affected by a disorder, but this certainly wouldn't be their fault - it just means the human brain is fundamentally prone to warping (for lack of a better term) into disorder states. The devotee wouldn't be responsible for anything he did that was contrary to his state as a pure devotee because it was being motivated by the disorder, which he had no control over and wasn't truly him. And his normal identity and functions would return after the leaving of the body. That's my guess anyway. I'm sure a lot of people would say "this could never ever happen to a pure devotee" but I don't think it's wrong to admit that it is possible. "Perfection" refers to their spirituality, not the chemicals in their brains.

Very interesting conversation this is turning into now...I definitely relate. I think some people need medication for psychological disorders. The thing that I'm against is psychiatrists who diagnose the problem, shove you off on a drug, complete their duty to the drug business, and leave you with no solutions other than chemical changes. I'm far more into psychology (which I'm currently majoring in) - counselling, understanding, personal treatment within the mind itself. But psychiatry is necessary for some. I have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, I have suffered from it greatly since fall of 2000. Over the last four years I tried unsuccessfully to ignore and stop it on my own, and last year I underwent psychological counselling and recovered in some ways, but eventually slid backward and am now having a lot of trouble again. I'm going to have to start medication soon if I want to live anything close to a normal life, something I haven't seen in a long time. It's not my preference, but I'm really out of options. And it really upsets me when people say "just chant" etc etc to cure your problems. It doesn't work that way. It's hard to rise above the mind, when the mind is filled with disorders that cause you to constantly be affected by it. Disorders hold you down. They make it impossible for you to live by reason. It's irresponsible for a spiritualist to encourage someone to not seek "outside" treatment. It only leads to a person's continual detriment.

Yes. I never said anything about Allah. If you have any doubts to my tolerance read an older post I made under the title "HOLY WARS!" I never said anything to denounce Ahmed's faith, I just denounced his denouncing of others!

This time, I'm with gHari. Seriously man - what is your problem?? Do you really think you're going to convert people this way, anyhow? Like anybody listens to snide cracks at their beliefs? Maybe if you offered some intelligent analysis you might raise some eyebrows, and it could fall under the heading of "honest discussion." But this is just absolutely ridiculous. Besides, you have your argument wrong anyhow. In K.C. chanting is ultimately meant to result in the revelation of one's spiritual identity beyond the mind; not peace and numbness.

Wow, this is really nice. Did you seriously just learn how to make websites? I've been at it for six years and still can't do anything this quality (although I guess I haven't tried hard enough, either). I've yet to check it out more but congrats, I'm sure this will go over really well!

I'm really glad to hear that! Keep it up. It's an encouraging story. I found in my own experience that my OCD makes its worst attacks when I am trying to concentrate. It crippled my ability to chant. It's different for everyone, you just have to do what's necessary to get better.

I understand that, but I was responding to this statement: "but whilen i am here in this material world and being a girl i have to get married no other option,so is it wrong if i choose the person to whom i would like to get married to?"

It's pointless to just take medication to be happy. It isn't, however, pointless if you have a serious medical condition that prevents you from living your life normally. Clinical depression, for example. It's impossible to be yourself (and therefore to fully apply Krishna consciousness) when you are affected by it. Medication will get rid of it and put you on a normal mental slate to work with. For myself I have O.C.D. and it makes it impossible to go about normal living much of the time, and I'm going to need to start medication.

The only thing that troubles me is that you think you HAVE to get married. If you want to, then sure. But don't do anything you don't want to do. And yes there is precedent for this. There have been female renunciants...Gungamata Gosvamini I can name off the top of my head.

The "very offensive" threads have put into one neat little package everything that depresses me about religion (remember that I said religion, and not spirituality!). First, we have the Muslim, who comes and declares that he knows the Only True God and that is actually "hurtful" to the worshippers of this God that people have different beliefs. This Muslim speaks the same words that are spoken against him by the Christians who say, "Allah is a false moon-god, and those who worship this false 'God' are condemned to hell for denying the Only True Salvation, Jesus Christ." I'm sure that Ahmed is upset by that statement, so why does he toss it at others? Doesn't he know better by now that everyone is in a different state of mind and that spiritual paths apply in different ways to different people? Then we have a devotee who comes in and claims that Ahmed only knows "but a spark" of the One True God, Krishna, and that his religion is only for the wicked, and is therefore lesser and shameful. This devotee, of course, has just been condemned by Ahmed in the same mentality. What is wrong with you??? I'm just going to let KRS-One do the talking: "I'm not a Muslim, but I support them My father in Heaven taught me and taught them I'm not a Christian, but I won't diss 'em I'm not a Jew, I don't practice Judaism I'm not a Buddhist, but Buddha's a master..."

Seems I'm constantly reminded why I left the movement! In any case...Part II is up on Chakra. I just read it over and decided that I can't stand the topic anymore. I also thought the article saying that we shouldn't be discussing these "private matters" on online forums was unfortunate. In any case, everyone can check it out now. I'll still be on this forum but chances are I won't be yapping about guru-tattva anymore! Peace.

That refers to the disciples the guru initiated while he was still physically present. The guru stays within the universe until all his personally initiated disciples are returned to the spiritual world. It doesn't mean he's meant to be forced to stay in the universe repeatedly so he can initiate new disciples.

Maharaj admitted that it was of an intimate/physical nature, but that it did not reach the point of intercourse. And yes - the "lila" thing really disturbed me. Wow. I think everyone understands the concept of God having a lila which, coming from the source of everything, cannot be corrupt. But a jivatma's transgressions of his own morality, spirituality, and position being treated as some higher divine act meant to teach us, is truly terrifying. I hope this idea isn't prevalent.

"Stonehearted" - I don't think anyone could have ever said it better and certainly not myself. That was great to read, thank you.

Well, nothing I've said has been motivated by, or included any ridicule. I have no desire to do anything like that. The reason I wrote my article in the first place was because I was troubled by the idea that S.D.G. wanted his disciples to remain viewing him as guru. That's why I've been trying to portray the real standard of "guru" so much - I see the philosophy and understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnavism being dumbed-down to fit the circumstances. People keep seeing gurus fall, so they make a new definition of a guru. Or they think anyone who has disciples is a pure devotee. These are big problems and I see them leading to a diminished representation of Chaitanya's revelation. My history with K.C. is that I started out as a fanatical brahmachari in ISKCON, took initiation, so on and so forth. I later grew up and started to view things with more clarity and understanding and started to have serious problems with a lot of what I saw in ISKCON, so I got out. Eventually I had to reject my guru because I felt he was engaged in extreme examples of aparadha that I could not attribute to a true guru or pure devotee. Now I'm not even sure where I am at spiritually but I have grown to appreciate Gaudiya Vaishnavism in a much more rich, deep manner than originally, and I guess I feel it is part of my duty in what I've learned to give it to others. I can't stand watching devotees excepting party-line statements and not even being able to delve into the true meaning of the philosophy they themselves embrace.