stonehearted

Yes.

Don't we have some way of deleting posts we make? I apparently clicked the wrong button and got a duplicate instead of an edited version of the above post.

WEll, Joseph Villager is not around to enjoy anything any more. The company was formed in 1888, so I'd guess he has long since moved on--several times.

Those who have the time and interest can certainly start a campaign against this company, but I imagine the only real effect it is likely to have is to make them look like intolerant fools with nothing better to do. After all, I don't think the Brahma folks have asserted that drinking their beer would benefit anyone's spiritual life.

It may be more effective to actually dedicate our time to promoting Sri Krishna sankirtan, which is the only real cure for Kali Yuga's ills.

I apreciate stonehearted Prabhu's post and his question. I did not want to simply fire off a quick response. I'm in the process of carefully considering what he's written. I would like to respond when I've digested it some more.

I happy to read that, Alex. I did not intend that as a rhetorical question, nor did I intend it to shut you down. I think Dhira Govinda's idea is provocative in a way that ought to generate more discussion in ISKCON than it seems to have so far. I look forward to your response.

In the meantime, enjoy the holidays with your family. I'm spending my first holidays away from my family since I married in 1973. I'm at a godbrother's ashram in Northern California, perhaps preparing for the next stage of my life.

And please feel free to call me Babhru.

Dear Alex,

Thanks for the even tone you use in your discussion. It in no way diminishes the zeal with which you express your convictions and makes it much easier to read your posts.

I have one comment about the excerpt you include in the previous post. In it Dhira Govinda prabhu asserts that "Srila Prabhupada would use the words 'direct link', 'primary link', 'prominent link', and 'current link'." Have you ever examined that assertion? I have, and I got no hits for any of them except for "current link," and there was only one hit for that. (There were two, but one was Pradyumna reading from the purport in the other instance is found.) Well, I did get hits for "direct link," but none was used in the way intended by PL folks.

I wonder whether this might color the way we read the excerpt you shared earlier.

Si.

Nice quotation, but the date is obviously mistaken. Srila Prabhupada never visited Honolulu in 1973. He came through just for the day in October of '72, gave a lecture in the evening, and then left fo the airport with Siddhasvarupanda for Manila and India. His next visit was in January of '74. In the summer of 1973, all the temples in the islands were closed down.

Still waiting for an answer? My advice is, don't hold your breath.

Ditto, because there is no answer. He/they will simply mischaracterize what you've written yet again. It's a futile conversation.

I like this. I also checked out a "Shout to the Lord" video. I'd say this is sankirtan, although it's not Sri Krishna sankirtan directly. And what's with the women in uniforms? I noticed that in both videos.

This reminds me of going on sankirtan in Honolulu in 1970. We had our sankirtan party in Waikiki in the evenings, and Siddhasvarupa's folks had theirs at the other end of Kalakaua Ave. Then the Children of God would go out and sing Jesus songs, and I think an evangelical Jesus-people group had another party out in the evenings for a while. It was pretty wild.

But this you see right now in London, by government resolution the Hindu Gurukula with an ISKCON school principal has to serve meat at the school's refectory to not be offensive against the non-vegetarians. If they serve meat other rotten stuff like cigarettes and alcopops follow.

Maybe England is drastically different From the US, but in Alachua, Florida, the devotees opened a government charter school. The school lunches are all prasadam. All the teachers are devotees, and more and more non-devotees from the local community are enrolling their kids in the school, even though the lunches are vegetarian.

I don't know what American devotees were doing, in Europe the Vaishnavas behaved more like real monks when joining a temple, we hardly had any children. Seems like in US the first thing what happened when a girl joined ISKCON - she became pregnant.

Where did you get that idea? Although I only lived in a couple of temples, I've been around rather a long time, and I didn't see any such thing. Some girls joined who were pregnant, but I didn't know any women who got pregnant while living as brahmacharinis; I'm not saying it didn't happen, but you make it sound as though devotees in US temples were screwing all the time. Maybe there's some stereotying going on here. I'd bet some Americans had a similar idea about European devotees, especially the French and Italians.

You are talking around the topic. All you do is tell me I'm making things up - like there is no such thing as an RRH when that is so easily verified in fact.

ISKCON is a top down totalitarian government. The Catholic church is another case in point. Ayatolahs, Gurus, Popes are all despots. You need to believe it's my imagination and you can't even come up with an explanation.

I would hardly call accepting the advice of a scholar or professor surrender. Neither would they. I don't have to hand over myself body and soul to somebody just to learn. That' s the exclusive province of RRH.

That's exactly the point: you're talking about ISKCON, and I'm not.

As for college professors, you check the catalogs and see if they have something you want. Then you have to apply to the university, pay a pile of money. Then you have to attend classes, take tests, fulfill assignments, and so many other things. Some people can't handle that much hassle (if you're looking for an RRH, you've found it in the university--I know because i taught there for 16 years), so they don't get degress. And that shows they really want something else. No biggie. Not everyone needs a college degree.

And not everyone needs a guru. Only those who are convinced that real happiness lies beyond the "life" of getting and spending, etc. and who feels he or she must have that happiness needs a guru. Others are wasting their time looking.

Real gurus aren't popes, they aren't despots. I'm sorry your experience has been so limited that you haven't found anyone in whom you can place your faith. That would be a rareYou should not surrender until you find someone of whom you are convinced you must have his or her shelter.

For some reason you've missed all the statements where I address surrender, ask for its definition - which was not forthcoming.

I see it as the political necessity of the guru/hierarchy to dominate and thrive. Ugh.

Here's the definition given by our teachers:

anukulyasya sankalpah

pratikulyasya varjanam

raksisyatiti visvaso

goptrtve varanam tatha

atma-niksepa-karpanye

sad-vidha saranagatih

"‘The six divisions of surrender are the acceptance of those things favorable to devotional service, the rejection of unfavorable things, the conviction that Krsna will give protection, the acceptance of the Lord as one's guardian or master, full self-surrender, and humility."

This has nothing to do with institutions or external hierarchies. You only need to worry about RRHs if you want to find a place for yourself in them, to move up the ladder. You apparently aren't interested in that, which I take as a good sign.

You've described a Catch 22 , a vicious circle. Without becoming part of an RRH *, I can't get association and without association I won't understand an RRH.

 

*Rigid Religious Hierarchy

Nah--actually, you've created a semblance of a Catch-22 by introducing something invented (either by you or by "them"): RRH. That only appears to exist to those so attached to false ego that they can't accept that someone may naturally have a superior position. The same thing would be true if you wanted to get a college degree; you'd have to accept that your professors have something you don't and accept their guidance so you may attain it as well.

I agree with theist that surrender doesn't involve any real hierarchies and that you'll be okay. After all, you seem to have some attraction to the goal. Anyway, I'm not particularly distressed; everyone acts according to their own adhikara. Life is ultimately about pleasure, and I hope your life provides you with whatever pleasure you can conceive. Be well.

Quite frankly, I've read some of these and the concept still escapes me.

It sounds like total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?) and that to me is really scaaarry.

Well, there you go. It only sounds like "total self-abnegation and passivity (masochism?)" to those not fortunate enough to get the right association. After all, the literature where this is discussed should be read under the guidance of someone who actually understands it. In fact, it's really about embracing your real identity and leaving everything inferior aside.

Maybe we should discuss something we're qualified to talk about. How about them Nicks? (I actually have no clue what's going on in the world of sports.)

Dear Lord--who do you associate with? I'd suggest you read books that address saranagati, such as Nectar of Devotion, or Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about surrender. You might also try spending some time with Bhaktivinoda Thakura's songs of saranagati. This has nothing with anyone's need to exact obedience from others, nothing whatsoever with exercising power, but with reforming our hearts to the extent that they become fit for housing the Lord's lotus feet. If that's not your goal, it's no surprise you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Listen: surrender has nothing to do with any hierarchies, and it's the key to actual freedom. Its essence is that Krishna is our exclusive maintainer. The saranagata subits himself or herself at Krishna's lotus feet with the conviction that he will maintain and protect us. And, according to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Sri Nanda Kumar hears the prayers of those who have assimilated the six aspects of surrender.

I'm not sure just where this bug you have about hierarchies (which have nothing to do with mercy) comes from, unless you've been burned by intitutionalized preaching too many times. So figure out what you want from your life, find out what it takes to attain that, and go for it. You don't have to join anything or sign up for any bureaucracy to get Krishna prema.

Whatever you choose, have fun.

I'm not too clear about what sevabhakta means by "ritually" in the above post. My best guess is that he/she means to reguarly chant, regularly perform archana, etc., under the guidance of experienced devotees. Am I close?

Well, I also find the knee-jerk responses rather tiresome. Just because someone has a position in ISKCON, he's automatically awful, motivated by personal ambition? Gimme a break. Look, I've been around ISKCON for 38 years, and I've seen plenty of devotees who don't live up to the aspirations Srila Prabhupada has for them. (Count me among them.) However, to assert that everyone who has attained some apparent success in preaching must be materially ambitious just shows a lack of careful thought. And the assumption that none of those who have dedicated decades of their lives to serving the sankirtan movement has made any real spiritual progress just shows a lack of regard for Srila Prabhupada. This is just so old . . .

Malati asked me to thank the board administrators and moderators for posting this excerpt, along with the link to her blog. She had trouble posting herself, and they stepped in to help.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's true. He told me also, "He is such a qualified person. Sridhara Maharaja is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapura, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? What is your objection to staying in Mayapura? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me, so both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here [to his Navadwipa math].

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupada's desire.

Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. And if you stay there, then it will be very helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one with whom I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapura, then all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's right.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. Jayapataka Maharaja is telling me that he will build a house for me. So both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am just traveling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So Maharaja, please-give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Well, I'll think it over and let you know.

Srila Prabhupada: Let me make that arrangement, Maharaja. That planetarium [the "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money-the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world. Indian culture and varnasrama. Prabhupada's desire was to establish the varnasrama-dharma. So we have to do that: we have to establish our Varnasrama College. Let the people from all over the world come and learn about varnasrama.

Srila Prabhupada seems very clear in his desire that Srila Sridhar Maharaja stay in Mayapur so everyone could have the benefit of his company. It was not just about the planetarium, but much broader, as we see in this excerpt. And Srila Prabhupada was expressing his "earnest desire" that Srila Sridhar Maharaja spend time there so Prabhupada and everyone else could easily consult with Maharaj.

Thanks for the complement; I will forgive you for being nasty however, the terminology jiva tatastha is not my invention

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

Jiva Tatastha is not a place or region in between the spiritual and material worlds, tatastha refers to the marginal living entities, jiva tattva, jiva tatasthas

 

I appreciate your forgivng my crabbiness; I'm a little under the weather nd not my usually sunny self.

Here's my gripe (and it is minor, peripheral): tatastha is the jiva's nature, its character. I agree it's not a physical location in this context. It means located on the tata--literally the littoral zone. However, it's used figuratively in this context. The phrase (or compound word--you seem to use it both ways) jiva-tatastha is found nowhere except in your writings. It's your coinage, but you use it as though it were a mantra you received from your guru. I just find it grating, and I apologize for bringing it up.

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

JIva-tatastha is a made up term--invented by you. In fact, tatastha describes the jiva's vulnerablilty due to its smallness, more than its sovereignty. God is sovereign, and all others are His servants. (Jeez--just look it up in a dictionary.) The jiva is independent, but only minutle so, and in a very limited way. Read the books, assimilate the teachings of the guru-paramapara, and quit trying to be some sort of two-bit muni.

Indeed; the arrogance we see in his posts answers to some descriptions of a certain kind of person in Bhagavad-gita. If someone's academic credentials spawned such arrogance, Srila Prabhupada often called them rascals and fools. (In the US, we have another--less gentle--name for them.) Most of us here simply don't care at all what they think about the teachings of Lord Chaitanya, since they're too closed minded--indeed, too small minded--to independently consider such novel concepts. So Vikram can blather all he wants; most of us will pay him little or no heed.

Then you should have cited the author referred to "In my previous Sun editorial"

It invites speculation otherwise.

Anyone who clicks on the link will see my Godbrother Brahma's name on the byline. No confusion there: Murali's in his 30s and initiated by Govinda Maharaja, and Brahma is in his 50s and initiated by Srila Prabhupada.

That conversation was in Bengali, from what I understand. The translation we have is by ISKCON's Bhakti Charu Swami. Just because you don't have a tape of something Srila Prabhupada said does not mean he didn't say it. I have recordings of several talks he gave in Hawaii that are not on the VedaBase or available fom any audio ministry. I've given them to the Bhaktivedanta Archives, but I have no idea when, or if, they'll be made available. However, that doesn't bother me.