stonehearted

 

The sannyasi third from the left in this picture is an initiated, sannyasi disciple of Sripad Goswami Maharaj. This sannyasi is a Guru in Bengal. His name is Sripad Bhakti Kiran Giri Maharaj. Here in this picture you see him surrounded by disciples of Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj and Srila Sridhar Maharaj, at the Kolkata Math.

 

This sannyasi Sripad Bhakti Kiran Giri Maharaj is the leader of the Parikrama Sankirtan of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math for the past 40 years.

 

Who are the new sannyasis here? (I"m guessing they're newly initiated because their uttariyas look full, as though they had just been begging guru-dakshina.)

Guess I missed this thread. What a shock this must have been, and what a relief that your daughter wasn't seriously hurt. I'm glad to see that she's okay and that everything will be fine. And I know how upsetting these incidents can be. About 5 1/2 years ago, my older daughter, who got around San Diego on her bicycle, was found lying unconscious in the middle of the road at 6:30 am. She had been on her way to an early class at Mesa College when somebody hit her and took off. Her helmet was destroyed--the shell ripped off and the core broken. Our younger daughter called from the Mainland, completely freaked out but, as it turned out, in control of the situation. She nursed her sister back to health when she finally got out of the hospital, and they're both fine. But you should have seen us then, 2500 miles away and unable to help. Rough.

 

You seem to be a good dad, KB. Hug them often and don't skimp on telling them you love them. (But you know that!)

I guess I was aware of comptetion for babes, but I was aloof from it somehow. I do remember appreciating some of them and thinking how lucky the guys with them were. One that stands out was Frannie Cunningham, Glenn Kaulukukui's girlfriend. She later married Jock Sutherland.

 

And as for competition for waves, yep--a big pain. I'd usually defer to others until they got to know me and my riding. At some places, that's something that never happened, so I would get the waves I could without hassling anyone. Mostly, though, although there'd be a prowling mindset at the lineup, guys in the Islands would give you props if you knew the rules and could ride well. In California, when I was in my late 40s and 50s, I had to work hard for that. But at two spots I was well respected, even as a bodyboarder: the breaks around Pacific Beach and Mission beach were mine. Lifeguard, young bodyboarders, and even a lot of the board surfers let me get the waves I wanted. Also at Big Rock (see the wave I attached above), the locals accepted me as one of them because I could ride, wasn't afraid (but was very respectful) of the big rock inside, and never dropped in on anyone. That spot has a reputation for nasty territoriality, but I never experienced anything but acceptance and respect, from the first time I wen out there.

 

But that competition for waves is the main reason I rarely get out in the water any more. (See my signature.)

I've never liked competition in surfing. It reduces it to a business, discourages risk-taking, encourages madated moves for scoring points. If I came across a contest on TV, I would probably not watch, even if it were the Eddie or the Pipeline.

 

Good surf movie I saw once: Can't Step Twice on the Same Piece of Water. It's Aussie, I think, and it had great footage.

 

 

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I'll watch, thanks. The first time I saw a pic of those monster Teahupoo waves, I had to sit down. I saw it on the cover of a magazine, and standing right there in Long's Drug Store, I exclaimed out loud, "What the hell is that?" I picked up the mag, looked through the pix in the story shaking my head, and marvelled at Laird's moxie.

Whoa! That's a cartoon-perfect left! Even though it looks pretty cold, I'm there.

 

Yep-it's no secret that Oz has plenty really great waves.

 

When I was learning to surf, my instructor told me that surfing was the perfect complement to my yoga practice (he meant hatha). In hatha, each movement is done with control, whereas surfing teaches spontaneity. I loved that. They are the perfect pair for me.

I like this, Lorraine. In fact, I think surfing is best (from several perspectives) when it becomes instinctive. A surfer needs to be able to respond to the wave with the kind of spontaneity your instructor had in mind. Calculation takes most of the real pleasure out of it. From surfing we can learn many things, including fluidity and flexibility (and not just physical, in either case). We can also learn self-confidence and boldness; I remember times when I'd paddle in to a really cool-looking wave, look down the face at the critical moment, balk and back off. Almost immediately, in every case, I realized I could have made that wave, or at least learned something for it. My lesson, size it up, then let go! I've tried to apply that to my spiritual life, and I've used it as an example in my sharing with others since I first joined at the beginning of 1970.

This is Big Rock, which is about my favorite spot in the San Diego area (and that could well be me on that bodyboard, except that I was gone by the time that pic was taken. But I've had many rides just like the one you see here.)

 

I like to ride a body board and surf some of the small waves.

I am not a "surfer".

I don't really go to the beach that much, but I would like to.

 

I wish I could sell my house here and move to the coast and be closer to the beach. The ocean air, the salt water, the surf........ truly an invigorating experience.

 

Florida has hundreds of miles of beaches and the water is nice and warm.

I don't have any use for California and the cold Alaskan current that flows down the west coast.

 

I know Prabhupada criticized surfers, but I really love a good beach.

 

Mahaprabhu loved to sport in the waves at Puri.

I can't imagine a more wonderful pastime than sporting in the waves with Mahaprabhu at Puri in ecstacy of Krishna prema.

I was in the room during the famous "criticism" of surfers. There's more to it than most folks realize. He had one of those mischievous little smiles when he said it. When he was with devotees at Puri in '77 (?), he saw them bodysurfing the shorebreak. He told them that he used to do the same thing when he was young.

 

Surfing can be good for the body and mind, if used sparingly. Addiction is not necessarily helpful. I am a surfer and tend toward addiction to the ocean. I remember that, after not having been in the ocean for a few years (ditto on that cold California water, KB!), my daughters begged me to take them bodysurfing in San Diego one July afternoon. (The water was about 70 degrees, as it usually is for a couple of months out of the year.) As I dove through the first wave, every cell in my body relaxed and said something like "oh, yeahhhh!" As I came out of the water, I actually said aloud, "I am an addict." I guess I imagined it was something like a junkie getting a spike that was long overdue. (Don't really know because, although I came from the '60s counterculture, I still--to this day--have never even seen cocaine or heroin.)

 

Nice left! Is that Florida?

I'd like to suggest that this thread be moved to the World Review forum. I'm not sure I see how there's a spiritual subject, beyond the discussion of the merits and demerits of the dairy industry.

 

Now I have Alice's resteraunt running through my brain. Thanks alot Babhru.

 

Sorry. See what happens when you spend much time with me?

Or Arlo-esque. (Arlo turned 60 yesterday, as I will in a month. )

 

Srimad Bhagavatam - the beautiful story of the Supreme personality of Godhead Bhagavan.

 

So if I read Babrus post correctly we first need to establish sambandha-jnana first by assimilating the essence of the first nine cantos.

 

So the question is what does that mean exactly and is accepting all the details of the cosmology a necessary ingredient in establishing sambandha-jnana? What does it matter how many miles across the universe is? The Bhagavatam says four billion miles but if I reject that number and accept that the universe is actually must much larger does it make any difference as long as I accept that the universe is only an energy of the Lord and that he is in control?

 

Many devotees get excited and say it is blasphemy against the Bhagavatam to reject the four billion figure but isn't the real message recognizing the creative energy and control of the Lord?

Well done. As a friend of ours used to sign his posts, "Take the essence."

 

When I was a teenager taking confirmation classes for the Episcopal Church, I asked our minister about the creation. How was I supposed to accept that the world was created in seven days? Rev. Mr. Willke replied quite simply, "The message is that in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth."

Yes; Mahaprabhu considers it spotless because it has only one topic--devotional service to Krishna. The other things discussed in the Bhagavatam are meant to help those who hear it understand the glories of Krishna bhakti.

 

Just as Bhagavad-gita has been analyzed as focusing on knowledge related to karma in the first six chapters, jnana in the last six chapters, and bhakti in the middle six, we can see that Cantos 1-9 present sambandha jnana, Cantos 11-12 present abhideya jnana (primarily developing vairagya, detachment from matter), and Canto 10 presents prayojana, the ultimate goal, which is devotional service in love of Krishna.

 

If we follow the diksha guru system, then Vipina Bihari Goswami is in the Saraswata parampara.

 

Can anyone please show me anywhere that Srila Saraswati Thakur ever included Vipina Bihari Goswami in the parampara?

We don't, so no one will.

 

Maybe you need to go for a japa walk.

 

That is a bit of a smoke screen.

If you say so. What do you think I'm trying to obscure?

 

 

If the Saraswatas don't recognize the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode and instead list the siksha guru as the line of parampara, that appears to make a very strong statement about all this formal diksha biz.

The fact is that we don't concern ourselves with him at all, unless we want to make some kind of kerfuffle.

 

 

Bhaktivinode is not even in the Saraswata parampara as far as the diksha like goes, unless you accept some tale that Bhaktivinode initiated Gaura-kisora das Babaji.

I"ve never heard that, either. We accept that Babaji Maharaja accepted Bhaktivinoda Thakura as a siksa guru. That's all.

 

 

If we follow the diksha concept of parampara, then Bhaktivinode is not in the ISKCON parampara or any Saraswata parampara.

Well, who here does? It's a staw-man argument, as far as I can see. I sure haven't argued for any such thing. Heck, I don't argue the issue at all. What's the point? All I've ever done is point out how to strengthen our understanding of what our gurus expect. And Lord Chaitanya's instructions to Sanatana Goswami on the process of devotiona service begin with taking shelter of a spiritual master, taking insruction and diksa (sorry--His word, not mine) from him (or her?) along with other things, serve him faithfully and intimately, and follow the path set by the sadhus.

 

No one here that I can remember has ever said that we need to trace out anyone's line by diksa exclusively. Why we don't has been explained elaborately by both Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja. I think everyone here accepts that. All I've said is that Lord Chaitanya builds spiritual progress on the submission that should be inherent in diksa, and that everyone in our line was initiated by someone, whether it was the predecessor we recognize or not.

 

Will Sri Babhru Prabhu be taking sannyasa soon?

 

To expand the KRSNA Conscious family of souls?

 

Leaving your family to embrace all souls of KRSNA's family?

Who knows? Krishna's a clever fellow. He can make even the impossible happen.

 

In the meantime, let's all keep chanting, and try not to get too carried away by wild speculation.

 

Well, his son Bimala Prasada didn't consider that taking diksha from Vipina Bihari Goswami was the right choice.

Otherwise, how could Bimala Prasad be so against the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode Thakur?

 

Bimala Prasad considered that Bhaktivinode was superior to his diksha guru.

 

So, how is that "doing it right"?

You'd have to ask him. He's the one who explained that he hadn't found anyone in whom he could have that kind of faith until he met Bipin-bihari Goswami. Things changed in subsequent years. Frankly, it's none of my business beyond that.

 

Regardless of the emphasis we place on siksa in parampara, all the links in the parampara accepted diksa from someone else. The details of their relationships with their gurus is their business, not ours.

 

oh, yeah, Bhaktivinode wrote Sri Krishna Samhita before he he was ever "initiated" by Vipina Bihari Goswami or connected with Jagannatha das Babaji.

 

So, he was commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam before he was even initiated.

 

Apparently, at the time of writing Sri Krishna Samhita, Bhaktivinode did not place absolute value on formal initiation.

Actually, he explained that he hadn't yet found anyone in whom he had the absolute faith one must have in the spiritual master. So it's not so much that he didn't place such value on initiation as that he placed such strong value that he insisted on doing it right.

 

I got my second initiation "brahman thread" after the ritviks had been appointed. Because second initiation is the one they call "diksha" I therefore tell that I was initiated via the ritvik system.

Okay-that's clearer. Thanks.

Thanks for that, Muralidhar. I'm not sure who she means when she refers to hearing the mantras originally, but that's no real matter. I don't really need to know. It's just a little confusing, considering her seniority. I guess I would have assumed that she got diksa from Srila Prabhupada, especially since she and her husband were always responsible devotees. Even when they had the business in LA, they were at the temple a lot.

 

What can we do if some folks want to criticize her? People criticize me, and there will be a lot more of that fairly soon, based on the path my life is taking.

 

I find Nyasi Maharaja and Srilekha's lives particularly interesting because it seems that so few in our line have taken sannyasa after long, happy, successful marriages. Almost all the sannyasis I know of either had marriages that didn't work or were never married since their commitment to Krishna consciousness. It looks, however, as though they were married even longer than my wife and I have been. I find that very encouraging. We need more such examples in all missions.

 

In the case of Srilekha devi dasi, who was initiated in Toronto in 1970 (she is one of my wife's best friends), she felt she had not gotten diksa because she got it through a fallen soul. So she asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj for "re-initiation" and he gave it to her.

So far, all I've seen is folks rushing to dump on Srilekha or defend her. I was hoping for an answer to my questions, which were asked to elicit information, not to provoke.

 

There were no "ritviks" in 1970.

 

The intiations were performed by temple presidents, brahmanas and sannyasis.

Initiations were recommended by the TP and directly approved by the personal secretary to Srila Prabhupada in 1970.

 

"Ritviks" weren't appointed till 1977.

 

In 1970 Srila Prabhupada was still giving the final approval on most initiations.

This is an interesting assertion from someone who has claimed, on this forum, to have been initiated by a ritvik process because someone else did the fire, or because he heard the mantras by tape. I don't have the time to track down the posts, but maybe someone else can.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave personal approval for initiations for a couple of years after, sometimes delegating the choosing of names and even chanting on the beads. These devotees were not considered ritviks, but were simply carrying out a practical function to facilitate Srila Prabhupada's mercy. I did hear of one Godbrother, though, who claimed after leaving that devotees initiated after a certain date were his disciples and that only the first three or so initiated at that temple were Prabhupada's disciples. I can tell you, though, that none of those disciples, as much as they may have respected the TP when he was acting properly, ever had such a conception. All were told by Srila Prabhupada, either personally or by letter, that he had accepted them. The TP has since dropped off the face of the earth. He no longer exists--never died, met any tragic anything. Just ceased to exist. I have my ideas . . .

How did Srilekha feel she hadn't received diksa? (We're talking about "second intitiation" here, right?) Was it because the devotee who did the fire sacrifice wasn't up to the standard? Did she get the mantras by tape recording? I met her and Sri Govinda, I guess in the late '80s when they had the travel agency in LA, and I was there training to run my gurukula in Hawaii. I found them warm, kind, and dedicated, and I have often wished that I had gotten to know them better.

 

I know that when I got Harinama from Srila Prabhupada, even though we were physically separated (he was in NY, I in Honolulu), his letter said that he was glad to accept me and that he had chanted on my beads), and I never felt a lack of connection. With regard to diksa, I put that off myself for a long time because I didn't feel qualified (and missed a darned good chance when he installed the Panca-tattva in Honolulu, but when I did get it, it was knee to knee in his room in LA. The mantras went from his lips to my ear, and when I chanted them the first time that day, although I had no expectations of any kind (I took it as a duty and privilege, with no further understanding), something perceivable happened as I chanted the Gopala mantra. I just don't buy the assertions of "traditionalists" who say that we have no real connection and our mantras have no power.