shiva

Captain EO

http://michaeljacksongod.blogspot.com/

For the same reason that sometimes just Shiva is referred to as God in various sastra: the name isn't important, Sadasiva and Shiva are used interchangeably in various sastra.. Jiva Goswami makes all of this very clear, I can't see why anyone would claim that what Jiva Goswami taught is not Gaudiya theology since he is a foundational acarya of the sampradaya. I'm not making any of this up, anyone can read what he wrote, the sanskrit is there and can be checked if people have doubts about the translation.

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi Shiva wrote: Originally Posted by shiva Vishnu tattva means one thing only in Gaudiya theology: Vishnu means all-pervading; Vishnu-tattva refers to swamsa or plenary expansions of Krishna, that is they are all the same all-pervading supreme Lord. Vishnu-tattva is only applicable to someone who is all-pervading, only applicable to God. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Lord Siva is all pervading within the universe. That is your mistake to think that Lord Siva is not all pervading. Even Lord Brahma is all pervading. Sorry to burst your misconception. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21 śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ deva-deva mahā-deva bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs trailokya-dahanād viṣāt SYNONYMS śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison. TRANSLATION The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds. PURPORT Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, these are all slokas in 8th Canto in regards to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, who drank the ocean of poison to save the universe. These verses were not offered to Sadasiva of Vaikuntha, but to Lord Siva in this universe. Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that Lord Siva is empowered with all-pervading and has the qualities of Lord Vishnu as such.

Posted by Sonic Yogi No, you are wrong. The husband of Parvati, Lord Siva is not a jiva. Siva is always in connection with Mahamaya, but that does not make him a jiva. When Siva is not in touch with Mahamaya, then he is the original Sadasiva who is the husband of Rama-devi, Lord Vishnu and is not the Sadasiva expansion that is in connection with Mahamaya. The second Sadasiva who is the consort of Mahamaya is the combination of Vishnu-tattva and Jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada has explained. The second Sadasiva who is the expansion of the Vishnu Sadasiva is always in contact with Mahamaya and sometimes acts as Vishnu-tattva, as in his preserving the universe and protecting it from the kalakuta, and sometimes act in capacity of jiva to destroy the universe. The second Sadasiva who consorts with Mahamaya is this combination of Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva. Srila Prabhupada refers to him as shaktyavesha avatar which means a jiva who has been empowered with some Vishnu-tattva powers. Shakytavesha avatars are not jiva and are not Vishnu, they are combination of both. Ordinarily, the jiva cannot attain any powers to the level of Vishnu, but in the case of shaktyavesha there is some function of Vishnu working through the jiva. When Vishnu works through a jiva that is shaktyavesha avatar and is not ordinary jiva. In effect, a jiva can be empowered to function as Vishnu tattva. That is shaktyavesha avatar. At that time the jiva is not acting as a jiva but as Vishnu tattva or Siva tattva. These Shaktyavesha avatars do not have all the powers of Vishnu, but some powers of Vishnu are invested in them. The Bhagavatam describes several of these shaktyavesha avatars who were jivas that became empowered with some powers otherwise only found in Vishnu. svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara svamsa-vistara -- catur-vyuha, avatara-gana vibhinnamsa jiva -- tanra saktite ganana sei vibbhinamsa jiva - dui ta' prakara eka - "nitya-mukta," eka - "nityasamsara" Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma Expansions of His personal self -- like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva -- descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva). Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies The living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva) are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi But, those quotes seems to be at odds with Srimad Bhagavatam. I don't know where you got those translation of if they are dependable. Here is the best explanation that I can find. Srila Prabhupada says that Siva is simultaneously an expansion of Vishnu and jiva. As the annihilator of the universe, the jiva aspect of Siva is acting. It doesn't appear as Siva is two different types but simultaneously a combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva. Those are from Prabhupada's Bhagavatam. The question of this thread was about the Gaudiya Vaisnava conception. Since Jiva Goswami is considered to be the greatest philosopher and was one of the founding acharyas in Gaudiya Vaisnavism his opinion certainly should be considered as representative of Gaudiya theology. I already quoted his opinion on this topic, he clearly states what I have stated: two different Shivas, one Vishnu tattva, the other not. Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura said the same exact thing and added that a jiva fills the position of the deva Shiva. He is also considered a major acharya for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said, "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was the protector, guardian, and acarya during the middle period (1600-1700) of the historical development of Gaudiya Vaisnavism."

You seem to be saying different things, I gave the opinion of Jiva Goswami and Visvanath Cakravarti who both said that there is a Shiva who is a plenary expansion of Krishna, Vishnu tattva, God himself, and that there is another Shiva which is a post like Brahma; which is either a jiva (who becomes superior to ordinary jivas) or Vishnu (when there is no qualified jiva to fill the post).Here are the relevant verses: http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/10/en1 naham parayur rishayo na marici-mukhya jananti yad-viracitam khalu sattva-sargah yan-mayaya mushita-cetasa isa daitya- martyadayah kim uta sasvad-abhadra-vrittah SYNONYMS na -- neither; aham -- I; para-ayuh -- that personality who lives for millions and millions of years (Lord Brahma); rishayah -- the seven rishis of the seven planets; na -- nor; marici-mukhyah -- headed by Marici Rishi; jananti -- know; yat -- by whom (the Supreme Lord); viracitam -- this universe, which has been created; khalu -- indeed; sattva-sargah -- although born in the mode of material goodness; yat-mayaya -- by the influence of whose energy; mushita-cetasah -- their hearts are bewildered; isa -- O my Lord; daitya -- the demons; martya-adayah -- the human beings and others; kim uta -- what to speak of; sasvat -- always; abhadra-vrittah -- influenced by the base qualities of material nature. TRANSLATION O my Lord, I, who am considered to be the best of the demigods, and Lord Brahma and the great rishis, headed by Marici, are born of the mode of goodness. Nonetheless, we are bewildered by Your illusory energy and cannot understand what this creation is. Aside from us, what is to be said of others, like the demons and human beings, who are in the base modes of material nature [rajo-guna and tamo-guna]? How will they know You? SB 8.12.35: O Maharaja Parikshit, best of kings, when Lord Siva had fully discharged semen, he could see how he himself had been victimized by the illusion created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus he restrained himself from any further maya. SB 8.12.36: Thus Lord Siva could understand his position and that of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited potencies. Having reached this understanding, he was not at all surprised by the wonderful way Lord Vishnu had acted upon him. SB 8.12.37: Seeing Lord Siva unagitated and unashamed, Lord Vishnu [Madhusudana] was very pleased. Thus He resumed His original form and spoke as follows. SB 8.12.38: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O best of the demigods, although you have been amply harassed because of My potency in assuming the form of a woman, you are established in your position. Therefore, may all good fortune be upon you. SB 8.12.39: My dear Lord Sambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount. SB 8.12.40: The material, external energy [maya], who cooperates with Me in creation and who is manifested in the three modes of nature, will not be able to bewilder you any longer. SB 8.12.41: Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, having thus been praised by the Supreme Personality, who bears the mark of Srivatsa on His chest, Lord Siva circumambulated Him. Then, after taking permission from Him, Lord Siva returned to his abode, Kailasa, along with his associates. SB 8.12.42: O descendant of Bharata Maharaja, Lord Siva, in jubilation, then addressed his wife, Bhavani, who is accepted by all authorities as the potency of Lord Vishnu. SB 8.12.43: Lord Siva said: O Goddess, you have now seen the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the unborn master of everyone. Although I am one of the principal expansions of His Lordship, even I was illusioned by His energy. What then is to be said of others, who are fully dependent on maya? SB 8.12.44: When I finished performing mystic yoga for one thousand years, you asked me upon whom I was meditating. Now, here is that Supreme Person to whom time has no entrance and who the Vedas cannot understand.

In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God: http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva. The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles. Jiva goswami explains the difference between the demigod Shiva and Sadashiva in his Paramatma Sandarbha -- Anuccheda 17 This is also explained by Sri Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur in his Sri Bhagavatamrita Kanika:

In Jaiva Dharma Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote:

I was quoting Jiva Goswami, he wrote that as a commentary to Brahma Samhita. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism Durga, either one, is a plenary expansion of Radha. Gaudiya Vaisnavism is monotheistic, some may consider it to be polytheistic where they envision more than one person being God, but that is due to a poor understanding.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4

Exactly, that is the authentic teaching of the Gaudiya Sampradaya: From the Sri Krsna-bhakti-ratna-prakasa of Srila Raghava Goswami: Even Durga is identical to Krishna, as told by Jiva Goswam in this commentary to Brahma Samhita:

What are thoughts? They are a dialogue in the mind. How do you understand the dialogue? You are dependent on memory for understanding the language of your thoughts, you are dependent on knowledge to understand the concepts of your thoughts. You are dependent on Krishna for memory and knowledge: Krishna says The mind is not you, and the mind is not under your control. Due to conditioning people identify the mind as themselves or under their control, but Lord Kapila says: Aniruddha is a Vishnu expansion of Krishna. Paramatma exists at the heart or core of the jiva, the soul of our soul, and functions as the mind. Through meditation on detachment from the mind, the mind can reveal it's true identity to the realized yogi. Lord Kapila continues: At the stage of bhava-bhakti the devotee has the truth of the mind and his or her relationship to Krishna revealed to them through Krishna's control over the mind -- Krishna speaks to the devotee through the mind because the devotee understands that he or she is not the controller of the mind; thereby letting Krishna speak to them in the mind. The jiva is always under control in all he says or does in all circumstances because will power only belongs to the Lord. The jiva is only sakti or controlled energy, while God is sakti and saktiman: the controller of energy. Becoming conscious of this reality is essential for entering into bhava-bhakti: The jiva is not the doer because the jiva is not in control of his thoughts which inspire the jiva to act, knowing this we can be conscious of Krishna because Paramatma is the mind and controls thought:

I was talking about the lila that is created by acharyas for the purpose of aiding people in their raganuga-sadhana practice. I replied already to someone who asked the same thing, this is what I said: "I'm not saying rasa-lila didn't take place, I'm saying that the rasa-lila created by Gaudiya acharyas serve very specific purposes. Unless you are educated enough in Bhagavat tattva and Radha Krishna tattva the true purpose of those writings for raganuga practice will not be attained." Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written: