Raguraman

Hare Krishna, Dear Anticheater, Stick to logical reasonong. No need to use word like cheat etc. It is not respectful towards a great saint. I don't think Swamy Ramakrishna is an ordinary man. One can be a strong Advaiti and a great saint at the same time. The good example is Sri Ramana Maharishi, Sri Ramakrishna himself etc. These souls are greater than us in every way. Even Madhvacharya bowed down humbly and respected his advaita guru.

Hare Krishna, I do not deny this at all. Lord Narayana is antaryami and service to them is great. There is a difference between seeing GOD in human beings(Jivas), human bodies and stones is different from calling all this as GOD itself. All great. But it still does not explain the term used. As for image worship, seeing GOD in Jiva's etc. is alright. The question here is not about this. What anti-cheater is really asking is how can you tell people that humans are GOD.

Hare Krishna, This may be more applicable to you guys. Tell me how can GOD become human. This is not a question on service and every branch of Vaishnavism emphasises service. The question is about calling and telling human beings that we are all GOD. That is the point here.

Hare Krishna, Dear anticheater, I have not seen so much conviction and stability of mind as you even though you are younger than people abusing you. You stuck to your logic. I did not find any logical answer from people here on two issues. Only abuses on a young and intelligent person. The very word Naarayana means the resting place of all humans. This is none but Lord. 1. So how can Narayana be daridra ? Is it not a good question. If you are not able to give a convincing answer to a kid atleast have the decency to accept your ignorance on this matter. May be you should ask your guru what Sri Ramakrishna really meant instead of abusing a kid. 2. How can GOD become a Jiva or vice-versa ? This 2nd problem is even addressed by all Vaishnava AchAryas.

Hare Krishna, Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayebhyo Salutations to those(the forms of Rudra) who shower prosperity on the devotees and to those who possess the hearts of the celestials(or to those who are very dear to the celestials). I think the above translation is closer to the truth. As for the Maitrayana Brahmana Upanishad, some do not accept it as authentic, some take it as authentic. So I cannot comment on that which I do not trust as authemtic.

Hare Krishna, Perhaps, people like you, when their false beliefs are adequately exposed, they start to accuse other people of imagination. This is what happens when a person not even trying to find out what mantra is part of what Sloka try to make a completely baseless point. First, the sloka is added along with Rudram and is not a part of Rudram. Second, this verse is found in Rig Veda Samhita and not in Yajur Veda Samhita. Third, there is not a single evidence that this points to Lors Shiva only. I have proovided reference in Narasimha Tapaniya Upanishad where Lord Narasimha is said to be three eyed and master, Lord of Rudra. Four, I have provided reference to Rig Veda Samhita 7:40:5 which shows that Lord Rudra gained all HIS powers from Lord Visnu. Why reject this verse. Considering this, Lord Rudra grants HIS mercy and mukti only through Lord Visnu's permission and not otherwise. It seems that your stand is totally demolished. so all this useless accusations of me being imaginative when you do not know which mantra is where. This indeed will be a sardarji logic, for only people like you can make.

Hare Krishna, So my question remains. Since none of these things exist except Brahman, then Vedas are illusion too, for there is not the other to teach in the first place. Mukti is also illusion. Then what is that advaita preaches. NOTHING...

Hare Krishna, Trayambaka can refer to Lord Narasimha as well. Lord Narasimha has three eyes and is mentioned in Narasimha Tapaniya Upansihad. In the same Upansihad Lord Narasimha is also mentioned to be the Lord of Sankara(Rudra). Now if one takes it that this word Trayambakam refers to Lord Narasimha or Lord Rudra, either way Lord Rudra cannot offer Mukti to any soul independent of Lord Visnu. Why ? One has to again consider Rig Veda 7:40:5 where it is clearly said that Lord Rudra gained all HIS powers by worshipping Lord Visnu. One has to also consider Devi Sukta where DEVI claims she is the strength in Lord Rudra's weapons. So it is clear that Lord Rudra offers mukti through Lord Visnu's grace and not othewise. The vedic mantra is actually to Lord Visnu in Narasimha form. There is also a puranic story where Lord Shiva asks Lord Visnu for a boon that anybody who dies in Kasi may attain mukti. In the event of death, Lord Shiva HIMSELF comes to the human and preaches Brahmataraka mantra to the departing.

Hare Krishna, An objective TRUTH or Fact does not depend on a person and his perception. For example, if all the people in Earth were to believe that the Earth is flat or even correctly as spherical the Earth is still spherical. Similarly I am trying to state the objective fact as recognized in Advaita. I am trying to state an objective FACT or TRUTH as recognized by advaita. This TRUTH is recognized in pAramArtika level and is the absolute FACT as per advaita. So let us drop lower levels of understanding (as stated in Advaita) which is subjective and also subject to MAYA as per advaita. It is true that Lord Krishna is not subject to Maya or Karma. It, however, does not imply non-existence or deny the vry existence of Karma or Maya(Avidya). But, as per advaita, the absolute TRUTH or FACT is that there is one reality(Brahman) and the very existence of creation, Karma etc. is denied. ie none of this we see as creation even exist in reality. I am getting very good responses from you sir. So to learn from you is very good for me as well. Since you have some anubhava in Advaita it is better for me atleast to gain knowledge of your perspectives. As for Maya and creation, it is said, in advaita, that the whole creation is maya or illusion. You must have heard of the Slokha used by madhvas. Naham Karta Hari Karta..... There is no doubt that Lord is the doer. But, unlike advaita, we recognize the existence of other entities except Brahman or Lord. The existence of these entities does depend on Brahman and is REAL. Even in Mukti we are his servants. Now it is true that all activities and free will are facilitated by Brahman so that it functions from moment to moment(depending on Brahman). But the FREE WILL itself comes from Svabhava of Jiva. Jiva, with its svabhava, has no begining or anihilation. Free will, mind, intellect, body, existence of everything and whatever you think of is functioning because of Brahman. In other words Brahman makes possible that everything can function every moment aftre moment. That is why Lord is called as the real doer. I think I am clear here and would explain more if needed.

Hare Krishna, Truly sir, I am not knowledgeable at all, but thank you for acknowledging the fact that such a thought is Buddhism period. I am talking from pAramArthika view. This is the comlete and perfect TRUTH and knowledge according to advaita. So in this sense. Other views in vyAvahArika sense are lower level of realization, but not the perfect knowledge. This is what I was talking as different states of knowledge in the first post. One, according to advaita, after reaching higher stages from vyAvahArika level, goes to pAramArthika level. This level is referred to as ajAti VAda. In this stage, according to advaita, one realizes through jnana that maya has no reality at all. In other words MAYA and consequently this whole creation both do not exist. Brahman becomes identical to ATMAN and this state is referred as Turiya(See my first post). ATMAN as per advaita is Brahman(I will not differ here as it is the TRUTH and ATMAN is a term that refers to the same object ie Brahman). But the observer(Jiva) is referred to as AnAtman in advaita too as in Buddhism. This Jiva is unreal in the ultimate realization and so JIVA does not exist in the paramartika sense. So my question remains as to what undergoes Karma and reincarnation. But suddddenly, just now I realize that in pAramArtika sense there is no creation at all and so Karma also does not exist as per advaita. So one can conclude this way that awareness exists but no perception in mukti. But what gets mukti when there is no Jiva or creation or karma. So one might think Brahman gets mukti. Wait but when there is no creation or karma or maya then there is no mukti too. So there is no Veda too. Only the undifferentiated element called Brahman exists with pure awareness and having no perception(of different objects). Well objects or nothing else exist, except BRAHMAN. This is what Buddhism teaches. Well this is Buddhism.

Hare Krishna, You are agreeing to lack of knowledge. Then what is the point in arguing with me. First you need to learn. I am not attacking you, but it is pointless on your part to prove your point when you do not know what Vedas say. This is ridiculous question. Veda Vyasa(Krishna Dwaipanya) is Lord Visnu's avatar. Then please read Gita fully. What is said here is that HE, the LORD, is the support(antaryami) of everything. I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39) Read the verses below. Particularly 15 and 17. Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma are said to be seen within Lord Krishn'a transcendental body in verse 15, but in verse 17 Lord Krishna HIMESELF is seen as holding Discuss, Gadha etc. This form is seacial to Lord Visnu only. Arjuna said: O Lord, I see in Your body all the gods and multitude of beings, all sages, celestial serpents, Lord Shiva as well as Lord Brahmaa seated on the lotus. (11.15) O Lord of the universe, I see You everywhere with infinite form, with many arms, stomachs, faces, and eyes. Neither do I see the beginning nor the middle nor the end of Your Universal Form. (11.16) I see You with Your crown, club, discus; and a mass of radiance, difficult to behold, shining all around with immeasurable brilliance of the sun and the blazing fire. (11.17) There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40) Whatever is endowed with glory, brilliance, and power; know that to be a manifestation of a fraction of My splendor. (10.41) What is the need for this detailed knowledge, O Arjuna? I continually support the entire universe by a small fraction of My energy. (10.42)

Hare Krishna, His version of Gita is exactly as per Vaishnava schools like Sri Sampradaya and Dvaita. Do you know all Vaishnava acaryas teach pure monotheism. Shankara, Ramana etc. advaitis are not the only people who wrote commentaries on Gita. Besides Advaita is full of fallacy. Would you care to explain more. I am not confused about anything here. May be it is you people who are very much confused. May be your philosophy dos not stand on stable ground.

Hare Krishna, It is heart breaking to see some advaitists and Shivites like Barney belittling Srila Prabhupada. Their knowledge of this great man's achievement seems to be nill. So I have started this thread. After reading his life story one can clearly see that Srila Prabhupada's achievement is too great compared to some other gurus like gurudeva. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. http://www.dipika.org/mainpages/srila.prabhupada/who.is.prabhupada.htm "We think that we have met Your Goodness by the will of providence, just so that we may accept you as captain of the ship for those who desire to cross the difficult ocean of Kali, which deteriorates all the good qualities of a human being." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.22) On the order of his spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada began writing on and translating Vedic texts in the English language to bring the message of Lord Krsna to the Western countries. After decades of struggle in India, he came to the West and started the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Later on he created the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, to publish his writings and recordings of his lectures, conversations, etc. The VedaBase has been created so that this great treasurehouse of knowledge may be preserved and propagated and so that all may take advantage of the wisdom and association of the pure devotee of Lord Krishna. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada appeared in this world in 1896 in Calcutta, India. He first met his spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami, in Calcutta in 1922. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, a prominent religious scholar and the founder of sixty-four Gaudiya Mathas (Vedic institutes), liked this educated young man and convinced him to dedicate his life to teaching Vedic knowledge. Srila Prabhupada became his student, and eleven years later (1933) at Allahabad he became his formally initiated disciple. At their first meeting, in 1922, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura requested Srila Prabhupada to broadcast the Vedic knowledge through the English language. In the years that followed, Srila Prabhupada wrote a commentary on the Bhagavad-gita, assisted the Gaudiya Matha in its work, and in 1944 started Back to Godhead, an English fortnightly magazine. Maintaining the publication was a struggle. Single-handedly, Srila Prabhupada edited it, typed the manuscripts, checked the galley proofs, and even distributed the individual copies. Once begun, the magazine never stopped; it is now being continued by his disciples in the West and is published in over thirty languages. Recognizing Srila Prabhupada's philosophical learning and devotion, the Gaudiya Vaisnava Society honored him in 1947 with the title Bhaktivedanta. In 1950, at the age of fifty-four, Srila Prabhupada retired from married life, adopting the vanaprastha (retired) order to devote more time to his studies and writing. Srila Prabhupada traveled to the holy city of Vrndavana, where he lived in humble circumstances in the historic temple of Radha-Damodara. There he engaged himself for several years in deep study and writing. He accepted the renounced order of life (sannyasa) in 1959. At Radha-Damodara, Srila Prabhupada began work on his life's masterpiece: a multivolume annotated translation of the eighteen-thousand-verse Srimad-Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana). He also wrote Easy Journey to Other Planets during this time. After publishing three volumes of the Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada came to the United States of America, in September 1965, to fulfill the mission of his spiritual master. Subsequently, His Divine Grace wrote more than sixty volumes of authoritative annotated translations and summary studies of the philosophical and religious classics of India. When he first arrived by freighter in New York City, Srila Prabhupada was practically penniless. Only after almost a year of great difficulty did he establish the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, in July of 1966. Until his passing away on November 14, 1977, he guided the Society and saw it grow to a worldwide confederation of more than one hundred asramas, schools, temples, institutes and farm communities. In 1968, Srila Prabhupada created New Vrindaban, an experimental Vedic community in the hills of West Virginia. Inspired by the success of New Vrindaban, which became a thriving farm community of more than two thousand acres, his students have since founded several similar communities in the United States and other countries. In 1972, His Divine Grace introduced the Vedic system of primary and secondary education in the West by founding the Gurukula school in Dallas, Texas. Since then, under his supervision, his disciples have established children's schools throughout the United States and the rest of the world, with the principal educational center now located in Vrndavana, India. Srila Prabhupada also inspired the construction of several large international cultural centers in India. The center at Sridhama Mayapur in West Bengal is the site for a planned spiritual city, an ambitious project for which construction will extend over many years to come. In Vrndavana, India, are the magnificent Krsna-Balarama Temple and International Guesthouse and the Srila Prabhupada Memorial and Museum. There is also a major cultural and educational center in Bombay. Other centers are planned in a dozen important locations on the Indian subcontinent. Srila Prabhupada's most significant contribution, however, is his books. Highly respected by the academic community for their authority, depth, and clarity, they are used as standard textbooks in numerous college courses. His writings have been translated into over fifty languages. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, established in 1972 to publish the works of His Divine Grace, has thus become the world's largest publisher of books in the field of Indian religion and philosophy. In just twelve years, in spite of his advanced age, Srila Prabhupada circled the globe fourteen times on lecture tours that took him to six continents. In spite of such a vigorous schedule, Srila Prabhupada continued to write prolifically. His writings constitute a veritable library of Vedic philosophy, religion, literature, and culture. yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam vande guroh sri-caranaravindam "By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. Therefore, I should always remember and praise the spiritual master. At least three times a day I should offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master." Soem of his works: Compare this to the miniscule amount of work done by other gurus mentioned in some post. http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Prabhupadas_Books.html Books by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada . Bhagavad-gita As It Is Srimad-Bhagavatam, cantos 1-10, (29 vols.) Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (17 vols.) Teachings of Lord Caitanya The Nectar of Devotion Sri Isopanisad Easy Journey to Other Planets Krsna Consciousness: The Topmost Yoga System Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead (3 vols.) Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers Dialectical Spiritualism -- A Vedic View of Western Philosophy Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahuti Transcendental Teachings of Prahlad Maharaja Teachings of Queen Kunti Krsna, the Reservoir of Pleasure The Science of Self-Realization The Path of Perfection Life Comes From Life The Perfection of Yoga Beyond Birth and Death On the Way to Krsna Raja-vidya: The King of Knowledge Elevation to Krsna Consciousness Krsna Consciousness: The Matchless Gift Back to Godhead magazine (founder)

Hare Krishna, It is not a wonder that no advaiti wants to confront the problem here. They do not have any answer, for the very postulaion of one reality in advaitam is FALLACY.

Hare Krishna, Barney is clearly exposing his hatred for Vaishnava Acharyas. On the one hand he does not even undersstand that ISKCON is present in so many parts of the world. Today, ISKCONs presence is felt everywhere that first Gita book I read in a remote town in Tamil Nadu is that of Srila Prabhupada's translation. While Barney being a Shivite praises Sivaya Subramanyaswamy(a Shivite Guru), he denigrates a Vaishnava Guru(Srila Prabhupada). He forgets that there are about 90,000 followers of ISKCON only in USA. One has to consider so many other countries from Europe, middle-east and Asia. What ISKCON has achieved is far more than what Saiva Siddhanta Church achieved. Not to mention Srila Prabhupada is not even alive. Considering what Srila Prabhupada achived in a short span of 10 years and at an age of 70 tells more of this great Guru. Surely his achievements over a span of 10 years are a lot better than most Saiva Gurus achievements over a span of 50 years. It is interesting to note that Barney statements on Srila Prabhupada. He states that Srila Prabhupada can be praised only for praching Gita to the west. ISKCON has temples in so many countries around the world. They have published numerous scriptures(all of them translated by the humble Guru Srila Prabhupada at age 70 or more). In the begining he used to type all his works and sell them and make money. This money was again used to create more copies. His life in USA began without any financial backing these Saiva Gurus had from their home country. From being a no one in USA, Srila Prabhupada has built a organization that exists in most parts of the world today. His translations and works are more comprehensive than what the Saiva Gurus achieved with financial backing from Hindus over a span of 50 years. Now anyone can tell who is greater here. Gurudeva's achievements over 50 years dwarfs before Srila Prabhupada's achivement in 10 years.

Hare Krishna, Similarly Srila Prabhupada could have simply used all the money from ISKCON. He did not use a penny for himself. He sacrificed his entire life for spreading Vedas in west. Srila Prabhupada's mission is spiritual and greater than Gandhi's mission for political freedom. It is clearly mentioned in Vedas that Lord Shiva gained his powers by worshipping Lord Visnu(Rig Veda 7:40:5). Anybody who worships Lord Visnu with the right knowledge is a Vaishnava. So Lord Shiva is a Vaishnava. One point is Gandhi's efforts for freedom struggle did unite people, but Britain was forced externally by other powers to grant freedom to India. This is the actual reason and Gandhi's influence in this is not that much. One needs to know the effects of second world war, American involvement and pressure on Britain for freedom of India etc.

Hare Krishna, So as though you would have changed your mind if he had preached in Chennai. Srila Prabhupada's orders were from his Guru and prampara. It was Bhagavan's will that Srila Prabhuada spread Vaishnava theology to west. This is a very ignorant question. Lord Vittala is the SELF-SAME BHAGAVAN Visnu and every Vaishnava(HKs included) knows that.

Hare Krishna, Srila Prabhupada did not mention about Namdev, Jnanadev and so many other Vaishnavas. It does not mean he disrespects any Vaishnava. His teachings were more on Lord HIMSELF than on Vaishnavas.

Hare Krishna, Srila Prabhupada entered USA at 70 years of age with a few dollars in his hand. Within 10 years what he did was write books and spread Krishna Consciousness. He did not enjoy the money which his organization collected. All the money was spent for spreading Vaishnava philosophy. Only ognorant people think that he was enjoying grants from rich people. Most of his followers were not so rich. Ofcourse some rich followers were there. In this way he is no lesser than Gandhi. Barney, you seem to have extreme hatred for HKs. It is not good for your mental health.

Hare Krishna, As per the Upanishads and Vedas, MahAtmA and AtmA are terms exclusively used to denote BhagavAn and none else. To use this term for any human is detestable. As for Sri Rayaru, some western Vaishnavas are simply wondering why Srila Prabhupada did not mention such a great Swami. It is not a sign that one seeks approval from Srila Prabhupada. Mariathaiya pesa kathuko. Avaru eluvathu vaisula satichathu satharana visayamala.

Hare Krishna, I guess you do not understand what Sruti is ? Sruti refers to Veda Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads. There is no contradiction in Sritis. I think I am discussing with somebody who does not know even what Sruti is. Lord Krishna also says there that one who worships Devas go to Devas, one who worships ghosts go to them, etc. and that one who worships HIM, attains HIM. Read fully before making any conclusions. You need to gain knowledge before you argue here. First know what Sruti refers to.

Hare Krishna, This is the fundamental problem of Advaita as I recognize it. I am not claiming I know everything. Advaita recognizes different states of perception of truth, but the ultimate truth is that there is only one TATVAM ie Brahman. They interpret the Mandukya Upanishad teachings of ChaturVyuhas(Taijasa, Prajna etc.) of Bhagavan as states of Jivas and Turiya(fourth) form of Bhagavan as Brahman ie "Man minus EGO". To explain more, the first three states(waking, dreaming, sleeping) as states where the unreal Jiva appears to exist and when the Jiva attains realization(Turiya) it becomes Brahman. Problem: It is said that Jiva(reflection of Brahman) is unreal. Brahman is the only reality. Then what is enveloped by maya. One cannot say that the unreal(non-existent) Jiva is enveloped by Maya, since that which does not exist cannot be bound. Obviously Brahman cannot be bound by Karmas or Maya or EGO. I think advaitists agree to this. So the question remains as to what undergoes effects of the Karmas.

Hare Krishna, I have quoted verses from Sruti that clearly show Lord Rudra is subordinate to Lord Visnu, Mahalakshmi and even Lord Vayu. If you cannot accept it then you are rejecting Vedas. Bhagavad Gita is explained as per the Srutis by Vaishnavas. When Lord Krishna says "I am Sankara, etc" He means that HE is the antaryami of all these demi-Gods.

Hare Krishna, The verse clearly says that Lord Krishna in that human form is Brahman. Simple. So if Brahman assumes a form it is ABSOLUTELY REAL. This is what Lord Krishna is saying, that deluded people(like advaitists) disregard HIM, when HE takes human form. Your question is illegitimate. Lord Krishna is Brahman. So there is no begining or end for HIM. HE is IMMORTAL and omnipresent.

Harre Krishna, Your or my limitation to know that Lord Krishna is omnipresent is not Lord Krishna's limitation. The form of LORD Krishna is transcendental and beyond both of us. What you see as though Lord Krishna is limited is your fault or avidya. I provide Sruti verses, didn't I. I think you need to understand fully about Vaishnavism before you argue with me.