mmaranr

Dear jndas, "The absolute truth can not be comprehended by mere logic. His unlimited expansions and vibhutis are beyond the explanation of our intellect. Lord Krishna as a seven year old child lifted the mountain of Govardhana on his pinky. Lord Rama killed 14,000 demons with a single arrow. Lord Vamana covered the entire existence in three footsteps. These are the divine lilas of the Lord." When the truth cannot be comprehended by mere logic, it is difficult for one to distinguish between reality and imagination (like in a fairy tale). Our brain automatically tells us that a child could not lift a real mountain or it is unlikely for anyone to kill 14,000 with a single arrow because these things do not occur normally, and we have prior knowledge of how big a mountain is and what an arrow can do (in this specific example). To undertake a detailed study of any knowledge that is beyond comprehension and logic is dangerous because different people can have different interpretations and beliefs with regard to that knowledge. Accepting the teachings without questioning can also lead to blind faith. On the other hand, answers that seem difficult of believe or not logical (compared to normality) leads to loss of confidence at the very start. Any comments? Regards, mmaranr

Hi all, I came across a letter written to The Editor that question the writer of Gita. The extract of the reply is as follows: "Later Vyasa Muni wanted to put the Mahabharata in written form, and for this he took the assistance of Sri Ganesh. Lord Ganesha broke one of his tusks and used it as a pen. Vyasa Muni spoke the Mahabharata (which includes the Gita), and Lord Ganesha transcribed it." From my understanding, Lord Ganesha is only a mythological god who never existed in history. His origin (from the dust from Parvathy's body) and the reasons behind the elephant head are also merely philosophical. I thought that his character was introduced in ancient scripts to explain the intangible and complex emotions of humans. Do most believers accept the fact that the Gita was written using a broken tusk?

Dear Jagat, >In other words, you want to know why God is not as you would have created Him! All I am saying, given the reality of the world, the nature and diversity of life forms, it is high improbable that a divine designer is behind all this and have created everthing with a purpose in mind. It is the blind forces of nature that governs everything - mindless, merciless forces that does not have a purpose or foresight. > Who gave you the intelligence to judge? Where did the ability to ask these questions come from? The intelligence in everyone did not crop up in a single instant. It is the result of gradual cumulative knowledge built-up over centuries made possible by the advancement of science - just like the way evolution has occurred. >The teleological argument: does this universe have a purpose? Does my life have a >purpose? If it does, why does it have a purpose? I don't think the universe has a purpose. Neither do I believe that our life has a purpose. Just before conception each one of us were one of the more that 500 million sperms that have equal chances of fertilizing the egg. If another sperm has been faster, perphaps we will never have been born. We are extremely lucky to exist, given the immense odds against that. Now that we exist, we have to create our own purpose in life. I don't know about others, but my purpose of life is to understand the world and nature as they are, the diverse and fascinating life forms and the history of everything. We are equally lucky to be born at a time when science has advanced so much and made many discoveries that can explain many things considered mysteries about 2000 years ago. >The argument from moral imperative: Where does morality come from? Why do we demand justice? What pushes us toward goodness and abhor evil, and yet why are we weak and succumb to evil? Why is being ethical such a challenge? Morality, ethics and respect for other humans were uncommon during prehistoric times or even ancient times. When humans became more civilized and there was law and order, moral values were inculcated into all children who grew up to become responsible adults. Of course, religion and the fear of God played a major role in teaching moral values and to bring society to order. This is precisely the reason why I think the major religious scriptures were written and how the belief in God came about. During the times Bible and Qu-aran were written, the Middle East was undergoing tremendous war between Romans, Hebrews and Persians. The only way someone could get the people together to fight is to create a common religion, in accordance with their own interpretations. Given the enormous size of the earth it is unlikely that the prophets of the major religions were born in the middle-east. >So you conclude everything came from a big bang. How much more curious that is. That all creation should have been present inside a seed waiting to unfold with all its myriad laws of physics, that we unpeel layer by layer, onion like, and never seem to find the core? I never concluded that everything came from a big bang. In fact, I don't believe in the big bang theory because being an event there must be a cause. I believe that that the universe always existed but is volatile in nature, i.e. a star can be born and can die. It this the birth of the star (just another sun) the gave rise to planets, including earth. Why the universe is volatile in nature, I don't have the answer. But, it is highly improbable that a divine designer exist because of the many of the reasons I gave in my earlier post. It is the blind force that prevails throughout the universe. >Kant said, "the star-studded sky above and the moral law within" were the two arguments he found most convincing for the existence of God. I don't think Kant would have said this if he was a dinosaur witnessing the imminent strike of a massive meteorite approaching the earth about 65 million years ago. >If you want detailed reasons for everything, well science is where you should go. Unfortunately, science provides evidences that point to the fact the a conscious, purposeful divine designer is highly improbable, bearing in mind that the designer we mean here refers to God. > But when it comes to the ultimate meaning of your existence, you may have to come face to face with the totality of all things that is God, and the subatom of consciousness that is hiding within your own tiny fragment of consciousness, which is also God. This is the most difficult part for me to defend, frankly. I agree that one day we will come face to face with the totality of all things, that is at our death, but why should it be God? I prefer to call it the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality that comes at out death is extremely abstract and outside our own understanding. It is in a different dimension, different from the four dimensions of the physical world (x, y, z and time, t). It is pointless to imagine what happens in the other world and start preparing for it now. One should spend more time trying to understand the world he/she lives in now and face the present reality. >Philosophy is about learning to ask the right questions. In science, one can ask anything!

Dear Jagat, >In other words, you want to know why God is not as you would have created Him! All I am saying, given the reality of the world, the nature and diversity of life forms, it is high improbable that a divine designer is behind all this and have created everthing with a purpose in mind. It is the blind forces of nature that governs everything - mindless, merciless forces that does not have a purpose or foresight. > Who gave you the intelligence to judge? Where did the ability to ask these questions come from? The intelligence in everyone did not crop up in a single instant. It is the result of gradual cumulative knowledge built-up over centuries made possible by the advancement of science - just like the way evolution has occurred. >The teleological argument: does this universe have a purpose? Does my life have a >purpose? If it does, why does it have a purpose? I don't think the universe has a purpose. Neither do I believe that our life has a purpose. Just before conception each one of us were one of the more that 500 million sperms that have equal chances of fertilizing the egg. If another sperm has been faster, perphaps we will never have been born. We are extremely lucky to exist, given the immense odds against that. Now that we exist, we have to create our own purpose in life. I don't know about others, but my purpose of life is to understand the world and nature as they are, the diverse and fascinating life forms and the history of everything. We are equally lucky to be born at a time when science has advanced so much and made many discoveries that can explain many things considered mysteries about 2000 years ago. >The argument from moral imperative: Where does morality come from? Why do we demand justice? What pushes us toward goodness and abhor evil, and yet why are we weak and succumb to evil? Why is being ethical such a challenge? Morality, ethics and respect for other humans were uncommon during prehistoric times or even ancient times. When humans became more civilized and there was law and order, moral values were inculcated into all children who grew up to become responsible adults. Of course, religion and the fear of God played a major role in teaching moral values and to bring society to order. This is precisely the reason why I think the major religious scriptures were written and how the belief in God came about. During the times Bible and Qu-aran were written, the Middle East was undergoing tremendous war between Romans, Hebrews and Persians. The only way someone could get the people together to fight is to create a common religion, in accordance with their own interpretations. Given the enormous size of the earth it is unlikely that the prophets of the major religions were born in the middle-east. >So you conclude everything came from a big bang. How much more curious that is. That all creation should have been present inside a seed waiting to unfold with all its myriad laws of physics, that we unpeel layer by layer, onion like, and never seem to find the core? I never concluded that everything came from a big bang. In fact, I don't believe in the big bang theory because being an event there must be a cause. I believe that that the universe always existed but is volatile in nature, i.e. a star can be born and can die. It this the birth of the star (just another sun) the gave rise to planets, including earth. Why the universe is volatile in nature, I don't have the answer. But, it is highly improbable that a divine designer exist because of the many of the reasons I gave in my earlier post. It is the blind force that prevails throughout the universe. >Kant said, "the star-studded sky above and the moral law within" were the two arguments he found most convincing for the existence of God. I don't think Kant would have said this if he was a dinosaur witnessing the imminent strike of a massive meteorite approaching the earth about 65 million years ago. >If you want detailed reasons for everything, well science is where you should go. Unfortunately, science provides evidences that point to the fact the a conscious, purposeful divine designer is highly improbable, bearing in mind that the designer we mean here refers to God. > But when it comes to the ultimate meaning of your existence, you may have to come face to face with the totality of all things that is God, and the subatom of consciousness that is hiding within your own tiny fragment of consciousness, which is also God. This is the most difficult part for me to defend, frankly. I agree that one day we will come face to face with the totality of all things, that is at our death, but why should it be God? I prefer to call it the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality that comes at out death is extremely abstract and outside our own understanding. It is in a different dimension, different from the four dimensions of the physical world (x, y, z and time, t). It is pointless to imagine what happens in the other world and start preparing for it now. One should spend more time trying to understand the world he/she lives in now and face the present reality. >Philosophy is about learning to ask the right questions. In science, one can ask anything!:-)

Dear all, >Of course, if you have already decided that science gives you the answers, >then don't bother. This, in fact, settles the whole issue once and for all. In essence, what really matters is what one believes in individually. Everyone have their own beliefs and theories about how everything came to exist it their present forms. Religions and science have their own explanations. The explanations are the results of years of research (in both disciplines) by philosophers and scientists and I belief their effort must be respected. I don't think anyone has the right to impose his/her beliefs on others. I appreciate the response given by many over the questions that I posted and the subsequent discussions. These questions (among many others) have been bothering me for a long time and I desperately needed some convincing answers before deciding whether to embark on the journey to truth via religious path or as a naturalist. I think I will need a few years to study the religious texts and scientific papers before deciding which way to go. At the moment, I belief that the existence of a divine creator is highly improbable as a result of my own observation and reasoning. Some of these are as follows: 1. The occurrence of earthquakes are the result of stresses built up along the fault lines in the earth's crust. From this, I conclude that the stress build-up is caused by the solidification of the earth's crust from a molten state resulting in the formation of tectonic plates pressing against each other. This is further confirmed by the presence of molten rock beneath the crust that oozes out as lava during most volcanic eruptions. No intelligent creator would have designed an earth with fault lines that can cause earthquakes and kill thousands, including destruction of places of worship. 2. Only our planet is able to sustain life because of the suitable atmosphere and environment. The other planets are either too dry, too cold or too hot to sustain life. They all rotate in orbits that fall in the same plane, suggesting that they could have been formed from the spinning sun at the birth of the sun (this is merely my own speculation). It is difficult to imagine why God could have made all nine planets and populate only one. 3. Some of the fossils left by early life forms shows a transitional pattern. For instance, the archaeopteryx displays a distinct blend of major reptilian and avian characteristics. There are hundreds of other fossils of primitive life form that existed before humans existed and are extinct now. This is a fact. It is difficult to understand why God created early life forms and mislead humans to believe that evolution could have occurred. 4. There are millions of harmful bacteria and viruses that attack innocent people. These could not have been created by a loving God at the same time humans were created. 5. It is highly improbable that God created animals so that the only way they can survive is by inflicting pain on others (including humans). 6. It is difficult to imagine that God could have created the vast variety of living creatures, including the more than 5000 different species of ring worms, each with perfect organs, senses and the ability to reproduce, and, of course, a soul. Some of these do not serve any benefit to mankind, including the smelly bug the just dropped onto my keyboard while typing this posting or the mosquito that just bit me a short while ago. 7. Only evolution explains satisfactorily why most people of South Africa look so much different from the majority of people from France or England. It is highly improbable that the purposeful God created the different races of humans who look so much different. There are many other reasons why I belief that an intelligent creator is highly improbable. These explanations may exist in the religious scriptures but I could not understand why one has to seek the 'truth' himself/herself instead of seeking the answer from a learned religious scholar. What if God, in reality, does not exist? How can one account for the existence of everything? How can complexity arise against the forces of simplification? Why do symmetry exist is living things? Science can offer answers that are much more credible than that offered by the religious texts (at least the bible, which I trust is equivalent in content and meaning to the Bhagavad-gita, since, I believe, all scriptures are the word of God). I will post some of these answers in my next message if someone is interested to read. Otherwise, I will retreat from this discussion for a while in search for the truth. >Harsh? Yes. But if he goes away with anything, let him take that. For all the questions that I asked and the views I have given, the harsh statement is absolutely nothing compared to the death sentence I would have been given had I posted these questions about a millennium ago. >Perhaps when he gets serious and a little humble, he can begin real inquiry >into the mysteries of the ultimate reality in a way that yields results. I wonder how can someone get humble just to ask simple questions like the ones I asked. If a child of six years asked why the world is spherical and not flat any school boy who has studied physics will be able to answer that. The child need not wait and grow up to seek the truth on his/her own. This is my contention.

Dear Jagat >So your argument, if that's what it is, is >"How can God exist when there is evil in >the world?" >If God is good, then how can there be evil >has one basic answer: >We don't see the big picture, therefore we >cannot see the ultimate purpose of things >from God's point of view. I don't have an argument per se. I feel more satisfied to believe that the existence of everything is due to some mysterious forces of nature. I don't attribute these forces to God. But, these are blind forces of nature that has no purpose, foresight or mercy. Science has enabled many of these forces to be understood by man (one of which is gravitational). Science also readily provides simple explanation of the manifestation of these forces, e.g. earthquakes or hurricanes, without the need to study geology or quantum theory. It is my opinion that religion should be able to provide similar explanations without having to study the philosophy of religion or to understand the 'whole picture'. >Birth, old age, disease and death are >hard-wired into creation. Is there any >possibility that science will do away with >these? I find it difficult to understand why diseases have been hard-wired into creation or, for the sake of argument, why hundreds of different type of bacteria and viruses have been created together with humans - bearing in mind that each virus is a living organism complete with the ability to repoduce and multiply. I wished a simple explanation exist without recourse to a study of religion. Anyway, science is trying its best to combat diseases and, thanks to years of research, humans nowdays have longer life span compared to our ancestors. >As long as you answer in the affirmative, >you admit that something is more powerful >than man, and that is God. Seek him/her/it >out. I admit that there obviously is something more powerful than man. I call that the force of nature. The blind, merciless force that does not have a purpose in mind. >Science cannot give you an answer as to why >there is evil in the world, because science >does not recognize the existence of evil. If the evil we refer here is due to natural causes, e.g. floods, earthquakes, famine, outbreak of malaria, plague etc., these can, indeed, be explained by science. >You did not respond to my previous post, >which shows that you have not really studied >the question in any depth. Had you, you >would understand what philosophers of >religion have debated as the arguments for >the existence of God. I apologize for not responding to your previous post as I was away on a job related issue. >I suggest that you take a course in the >philosophy of religion at your local >university. Why just a course on the philosophy of religion? I believe that evey human should try to understand the world as it is and the forces behind it that has resulted in its present form. Therefore, one should also study the history of the world, geology, archeology, palentology, zoology, theory of evolution as well. It is important that every human should seek out the truth on their own unbiased and accept the best explanation that satisfies him or her. >Everything you have said comes down to >"Science explains certain material phenomena >better than the scriptures of ancient man." All I am saying is that science has been subjected to constant scrutiny, arguments, debates, explorations, thinking and years of research that has renewed the old perception of the world and resulted in many new discoveries unknown during ancient times. Science is constantly debated and new findings are put forth all the time. This has, therefore, allowed mankind to progress. Have the ancient scriptures subjected to similar study and argument?

Dear all, I would like to thank everyone for their replies to my message. I waited for a while to hear from everyone before replying. I trust that almost everyone in this discussion board is a believer and my deepest apologies if my questions have offended anyone, although they are sincere and were asked with the aim of finding out the truth. I, in fact, expected some convincing answers to my questions from the religious viewpoint, although, from scientific viewpoint they can be explained easily. Science has now answered many of the mysteries of life that were once (and may still be) answerable only with reference to a divine creator. This has been possible only over the last two hundred yeas with the discovery of radioactive dating methods and the theory of evolution by natural selection by Charles Darwin. With radioactive dating, scientists are able to tell the ages of the various fossils dug up from the earth. When these are laid out in chronological order, the older fossils point to a more primitive life forms. (The earth itself is estimated to be about 4.6 billions years old although the bible says that the age is 6000 years old). The fossil record shows that life forms became increasing complex over long periods of time. The life form about 500 million years ago consist mainly of reptiles and a diverse array of sea creatures (Atlas of Prehistoric World - Discovery Channel). True humans did not exist about 50 million years ago. The oldest human-like creatures were 4-5 millions years old (http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/). The slow change undergone by the life form is a result of evolution by non-random natural selection (see The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins). I believe that God did not intentionally create different life froms at different times over the history of the earth. Neither do I believe that God created humans or any of the diverse variety of living creatures. I believe that it is the blind forces of nature that has caused the existence of the present life form. The most basic of these forces is the gravitational force of gravity discovered by Issac Netwon in the 17th century. Before this discovery (and perhaps, even till today) many people may have attributed this force to the divine creator. But, it is the force of gravity that exist throughout the universe. I don't believe that God is behind the forces of nature, or else He will be responsible for many natural disasters that kill thousands of innocent God-loving man, woman and children. I will read through the relevent sections of the religious scripture like Gita to find answers to my questions. But, I have to bear in mind that these scriptures may never have been updated based on latest findings, research and discoveries, unlike the scientific texts. mmaranr

Dear nachiketa2, I personally believe that many people pray to mythological or other gods because their parents did so. They were told, at a very young age, to believe and pray to gods. Their parents were told the same by their own parents and so on, generations after generations. This is known as mental child abuse. A child at the age of 3 believes in everthing we tell them - i.e. about Santa Claus, fairies, unicorns, dragons etc. I sincerely believe that a child should grow up free from any imposed beliefs and thoughts and explore life and world on his/her own. Equal time should be alloted to reading religious and science books, i.e. books on creation theory and evolution by natural selection. With regard to eating eggs and meat, please take a look at your teeth the next time you brush. You will notice that each one of us has four canine (sharp) teeth. If these canine teeth are a bit longer we would look like chimpanzees. I believe that we evolved from primates that ate meat. If we were meant to eat only vegetables our teeth will look like goat teeth, but they don't. There are many more scientific evidence that humans evolved from primite life forms. Please devote equal time to find some answers from the book by Richard Dawkins 'Blind Watchmaker', the website:www.talkorigins.org and other science books such as History of PreHistoric World by Discovery Channel.

Hi all, I am confused if there is really a Divine Creator called God (I believe He is called Brahma in Hinduism) and have some very fundamental questions. I hope someone can enlighten me and guide me to the truth. 1. If Brahma created the universe and all living things, who are Jesus Christ's father and Allah? 2. If He created the earth, when was this event accomplished? Is it 4.6 billion years ago as estimated from radioactive dating? 3. Why did He create primitive life form millions of years ago that are very much different from the life form that exist today? (Why create dinosaurs first before humans and make them extinct?) 4. Why make the earth with fault lines along which earthquakes repeatedly occur and kill thousands of normal, innocent people, including children? 5. Why make the earth with molten rock underneath the crust that oozes out as lava during earthquake? 6. Why create the e-coli bacteria? Or any of the hundreds of viruses that cause death to innocent people, children, animals and plants? 7. Why create 9 planets and make only one possible to sustain life? What is the purpose of the other 8? 8. Why create people of different races, religious beliefs, color etc.? 9. Why create some people with birth defects? If this is to pay for their misdeeds in their previous life, why wait one generation? 10. Why hundreds of innocent people die in stampede, tunnel fires, diseases when seeking Him at temple festivals, rituals, pilgrimages etc. I hope someone can help me.