bija

I can see we must beg to differ in these points prabhu. Thank you for the discussion and debate on the methods to bring love of God to the world.

I have shared all my thoughts in relation to your subject matter...thank you for your time.

yours...bija.

Oh Mukunda, giver of liberation!

Who in the world is there with the courage

to pray for the gift of sacred love,

of which the slightest manifestation,

when brushing against the minds of the great sages,

makes them forget the happiness of liberation?

My prayer therefore for You is this:

that I should simply desire for such prema,

and that this desire should increase forever,

in this world, birth after birth. quoted by Anadi

Surely the slightest, miniscule, drop of this sacred love brushing the mind would be the greatest treasure and perfection of human birth.

I am sure once it was tasted anything in this world would be tolerable, as long as greed for such increased day by day. Or at least hope for such increasement.

If such appears in the heart...it is irrelevant from which direction it comes. It is the greatest gift and the greatest treasure. To have association of such gracious saints or to see them must be special indeed.

Thanks for sharing your background and understandings Anadi. You have not left anyone out....especially one with aspiration to seek divine love.

I am always eager to hear stories of saints. Please post more on the 'movement of the heart'.

yours...bija

In other words, Sri krsna manifested himself in the hearts of the gopis in an uninterrupted series of ever-new blossoming appearances, enkindling this love-lust of theirs to ever newer and greater heights. This is the way in which He establishes His glories. quote by anadi

This is very beautiful Anadi. Could you please share a little more on the movement of the heart.

Also in reference to your forum...could you please share a little of your spiritual background etc. It is pleasing for me to read such posts.

Allow me to diagree with you. Yes the world is a stoolhouse we should try to get out of. It is the place of maya. That does not mean we do not need to know how the maya is working. I think we should understand what is happening in the world. There is a lot more happening behind the curtain that many of us are completely oblivious to. I think we should educate ourselves about the deceptive nature of current governments in power and try to speak the truth about what is happening worldwide on such issues as global warming, globalization, one world government etc. . Not just sit back chanting hare krishna trying to be aloof and not knowing what is happening around us. I think the Vaishnavas can make a difference and should be more outspoken about current events.

quote by Tattvadasa

I think you may have missed my point somewhat.

I would like to point out the nature of defect, ie maya and it's workings. But not such much the defects themselves.

It is good to look at what fruit each approach will give.

By teaching about the nature of defect one can give people knowledge as to the why's of the defects themselves.

If one just focus' on the defects themselves more prominently the audience influenced by ignorance will not enlighten, but become more divisive amongst their groupings.

The important point is to assist in raising the individuals standing. Focusing on the negative will only create more negative. Just look at the jihadists and the fruit coming from their teachers.

You see this is why Srila Prabhupada saw teaching about devotional service as the greatest humanitarian work.

I find this is the wonderful openess of Vedic literature. It can be taken on many levels. Such as literally, mythologically and even deeper, transcendentally in relation to the higher self.

It seems to speak in relation to the full being; body, psyche, and spirit.

Similarly these three dimensions can be encountered in one's being, without need for contradiction.

How one perceives may be due to qualification.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about literalism Tattva. I feel somewhat similar.

We know that Vaishnavism is the oldest religion on earth. But have you ever read many stories where people had their tongues cut out? No of course not. The stories that we do hear of beheadings etc always have a happy ending. quote by Tattvadasa

Ahh...thanks for the giggle.

A burning cross is the symbol of hatred, atrocity, intolerance and so on that Christianity had imbibed for centuries. I found a lot of good reads on the site and think it is a very good source of information concerning the history of Christianity. I would like to see one done about Islam. quote by Tattvadasa

Yes...why we are at it why don't we wish one to be done for the whole shaboogle!(just kidding)

This material realm is full of problem....I think we already know that Tattva. Best to focus on the transcendental and maybe point out the nature of defect. Rather than focusing on all the defects themselves. And be grateful that we have entered a tradition that has a reasonably good track history compared to the history of some other traditions...ie inquisition etc.

http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

Strange name to call a website...the burning cross was the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan wasn't it?

So little precious time in this life...and we spend all our energy in developing something like this. With drama flicks and Damien Omen music.

and you thought i was the fundie????? quote by Tattvadasa

And you had a hunch I was a neo-con did you? Or do you think I am a fundie too?

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada I left the arena of politics some years back.

Strange old world.

It is pleasing to hear your understandings. In that there can be tolerance in fundamental faith.

Once fundamentals are grasped....do you think there is a level of realization where literal interpretation of scripture is not of highest importance?

Or should scripture always be taken literally. Is literal interpretation only for those of certain qualification?

(edited section) Personally I find much advantage reading the Bhagavatam literally. It adds so much to my spiritual life and imagination as a human being. Actually such an interpretation I feel is of great benefit to spiritual growth...and development of faith.

But saying this...I would not feel threatened in belief if someone proposed that some topics are myth or should not be taken literally. Because I can also see the power of myth in relation to psyche.

So there is no conflict within me regarding these issues.

In my basic understandings I feel Gaudiya Vaisnavism is to deep and transcendental to fall

under the label of fundamentalist. But ofcourse we may be fundamentalist in our approach.

sorry...my below post came through twice after editing. I have deleted it here.

Bija,

and others of his mentality. I have a few serious question here. I want to find out just how deep your Judaeo-Christian conditioning goes.

 

1. Do you support Americas fight on terrorism?

2. Do you support the war in Iraq.

3. Who are the terrorists??? quote by Tattvadasa

Tattvadasa Prabhu, I had the courtesy to publicly answer your questions.

Could you show me the same courtesy?

Why did you ask these questions?

Where did you want to go with the answers?

What are your thoughts on the above questions?

Not all religious fundamentalist have something to add to terrorism. quote by Tattvadasa

Yes Tattva I would agree. But many fundamentalists are divisive or intolerant of other faith. Many I said...I do not know about all.

Do you think there are elements of fundamentalism in Gaudiya Vaisnavism?

Point considered and taken Theist. And in regards to association as you mention...I do not spend much endeavour trying to bring some around. Especially those with an agenda to criticize other faiths.

It is obvious isn't it...in the material realm religion is going to have defect. Not one is perfect in my opinion. It is the nature of this sphere. Plenty of room for Putana's. I think we have all had our own encounters with our personal Putana's or are having them now.

Anyway Tattvadasa Prabhu...sorry to have spoiled your party...any more thoughts?

Tattvadasa, Tattvadasa, Tattvadasa,

please firstly let me clarify. Yes I am aware of all these atrocities. So I will not begin to defend such. But life is short for me friend...so I will not expend precious time in pointing the finger. There are plenty of others to do this.

You make some interesting points about christian theology. I think what is very relevant to me is this....clearly from my own background I was only taught religiosity and it's outcome economic development.

Basically do a hard days work, go to church etc and this will be pleasing to God on judgement day. Now as you can understand...this sure leaves some gaps to be filled in for the seeking soul.

So ofcourse at a young age the catholicism was left behind. But interestingly enough the more I discover within about Vaisnavism, I can appreciate more now of some that I left behind.

Recently I undertook a small study of Father Bede Griffiths Bhagavad Gita translation. I had high hopes. But was dissapointed. Not a scratch on Gita As It Is or The Hidden Treasure of the Absolute.

Bija, how big was your Christmas tree this year? quote by Tattvadasa

Christmas Trees......how was yours Tattva. No I did not have one.

Bija,

and others of his mentality. I have a few serious question here. I want to find out just how deep your Judaeo-Christian conditioning goes.

 

1. Do you support Americas fight on terrorism?

2. Do you support the war in Iraq.

3. Who are the terrorists??? quote by Tattvadasa

 

It is interesting you ask this...and where you want to go with the answer.

Look...no to the first two questions. Simple.

The third question is somewhat more complex...I would say fundamentalists of all religion have something to add to this. And people based in ignorance.

As I have mentioned before Prabhu...spirituality for me means alot more than economic development. It is amazing what people will do for a dollar. It is amazing what people will do to keep a dollar. And it is amazing what people will do who do not have a dollar. But ofcourse the answer is much more complex than this.

Don't you find it strange that our views find basis in the direct words of Srila Prabhupada whereas characters like you can only insist he really feels the opposite of what he is saying. quote by Theist

I can understand why Tackle-Berry and others say such things. Srila Prabhupada seems to have been very tactful in his preaching methods with those outside of the movement. And at other times on certain points...very straightforward. But yes....I feel in my heart and from his words that he had great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. He requested his disciples to refer to Jesus as the son of God. I am sure he did not want fanatical disciples.

It seems from what I have seen and read that he had a very spacious heart. And understood that souls cannot spiritually awaken over night. So his methods were to nurture, care and uplift the soul to greater awareness and understanding. Something that is a gradual process for many....even a process over lifetimes...in his understanding.

I recently watched an ITV movie of Srila Prabhupada being interviewed on television. He gave the interviewer answers to his questions very simply. Almost as if giving the interviewer what he wanted to hear...but injecting truth at the same time. Who can understand the depth of his realization and his methods and tact in dealing with others of much less realization.

Saying this I feel Srila Prabhupada did not see the person Jesus as a religious myth.

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Putana-Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.doc

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The killing of the demon Putana.doc

Tatvadasa, you make some good points, but you can never convince these people who are more christian than gaudiya in their attitude. They are fanatics, so forget about them. They fanatically defend the lies of christianity, including the jesus myth. If only they exhibit the same fanaticism in understanding vedic scriptures! It will never happen, though.

 

Prabhupada wanted these ignorant christians to become gaudiyas, so he spoke of jesus etc. It was just a preaching device. Unfortunately, it backfired and instead of christians converting to vaishnavism, we have vaishnavas converting to christianity! quote by Tackle-berry

Yes...I think Tattvadasa has some good points also.

Tackle-berry thanks for putting a smile on my dial.

I do not get called a fanatic everyday.

I think ofcourse there is going to be difference to some degree in understandings. It is a diverse world...isn't it?

The Christians made all these accusations against the Vaishavas but when they were proven wrong they simply brushed everything under the rug. They never even made the slightest attempt to apologize. Now some Vaishnavas are reopening the debate and turning the tables. I was happy to find a website where some Vaishavas are bringing to light these facts. I was also thinking the same thing so there is something in the ether at this time in history. I will post the website after I have completed 15 posts here as I think it should be warmly welcomed by the Vaishnava world. quote by Tattvadasa

I was also thinking there is something in the ether at this time. The age of Kali Yuga...the age of quarell and hypocracy. That is what I am picking up on anyway. Where many religionists are showing symptoms of intolerance, division etc.

At the end of your previous post you have outlined your agenda and calling well. A fairly big task ahead of you for sure.

I will not be joining you in your vaisnava crusade. This type of thing has been going on in the name of all religions since time immemorial.

I see a new world. Where we can gently assist others to higher realization and understanding. With the wealth of knowledge of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition. Rather than the mission of conversion or knocking on the head.

I understand from one of your previous edited posts you where born in the bible-belt of USA. So your understanding of christianity would be of a certain type. From my brief encounter with fundamentalist evangelicals, it has been seen that they are very intolerant of other faiths. I can see this conditioning coming through in some of your words.

Sometimes it seems the more energy we put into defeating some standpoint, we eventually end up mirroring that standpoint in some ways. Please do not take offence at me saying this.

Saying this I am probably conditioned by my christian upbringing also. Which was of a more progressive slant on the catholic theology. Directly after Vatican Two council. Where an openess to other faiths had begun. And dialogue had been entered after centuries of closure, crusade, and wrong...in the name of God. Even though this movement was quelched somewhat...it was a time of great hope.

So I am grateful for this encounter. Which installed a type of 'universalism' from a very young age. So the transition to santana dharma universalism was spontaneous and easy.

And what is that universalism? It is devotional service.

Where are a christian, muslim, jew etc can also take part. Real unity as Srila Prabhupada has said. And as realization progressively develops we will no longer identify with such designations so much.

From this I can envision peace for the earth in the name of God. Rather than endless crusade and conflict. Which has been proven from the past.

This battle will not be for the timid or weak of heart. quote by Tattvadasa

May I dare to say in reference to your post...

This battle will not be for the timid or spacious of heart.

 

I had a look around Prabhu. Could not find it in pdf or document in english.

It can be found at this site in Sanskrit: http://www.dharmicscriptures.org/scriptures.htm

By the way...I read in the Sri Krsna Samhita that....'Vrindavana is a land of faith'.

quote by bija

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter 5 text 13

vishvaasa-vishaye ramye nadi cid-drava-rupini

tasyaam tu pitaram magnam uddhritya-lilayaa harih

In Shri Vrindaavana, the land of faith, the Yamunaa, the personification of spiritual liquid, flows. Nanda Mahaaraaja was merged in that water, and the Lord delivered him as part of His pastimes.

That avatar is a digital pic of my vapu setting on the beach of Mindoro Island in the Philppines last year. quote by Guruvani

In the photo..is that a bead bag around your neck?

If they were truly convinced of The Absolute Truth and such understanding had evolved in a natural way--which would include being able to question the very foundation of one's faith and religion--then nothing could ever swerve or derail them. quote by guest

In Western culture there is a saying that the biggest compliment to one's religion is the ability to be able to question it. quote by guest

Yes...I think for some in their natural progression of faith, such a stage arises.

Moving on from the initial acceptance of a belief system, to really investigating within oneself.

I think this point has been touched on in another thread in regards to Guru. I feel when we come to this questioning stage of our faith we need to have a very open relationship with our spiritual guides.

I am sure a balanced guru would be open to such questioning, and understand.

If this stage can be appreciated...the outcome is surely a strengthening of faith and a new maturity and development.

Debate actually strengthens the devotional platform of sadhakas who are at a certain level of understanding. quote by guest

Yes....open ended discussion is beneficial for growth.

I can see some benefit from comparitive study if the outcome is deepening of faith. By the way...I read in the Sri Krsna Samhita that....'Vrindavana is a land of faith'.