AncientMariner

Bet AM does not like this kind of broad thinking.

 

Broad thinking is good only when the results align with our beliefs. In all other cases, broad thinking is bad & instead we should rely on scriptural evidence.

 

So broad thinking as in Jesus = Vishnu is good.

broad thinking as in Shiva = Vishnu is bad. (come on, where is the evidence?)

 

Cheers

I have never thought that Jesus is Vishnu. I have always viewed Jesus as a saktyavesa avatar meaning he is a jiva and maxes out at 78% of the qualities of Krishna. Although I have read theists arguments of simultaneous oneness and difference and can see what he is saying to some degree.

How can you not worship Shiva if you worship Vishnu? Shiva is an aspect of Vishnu its just that according to my understanding worship of Shiva alone without worshipping Vishnu is not sufficient to get liberation or something like that. I have never put Shiva worship down.

I have read (I'm being lazy and not looking for the quotes) from Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja (Prabhupada's Indian disciple who passed on about 12 yr. ago in his mid-sixties) and Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja (Prabhupada's godbrother who entered nitya lila about 9 yr. ago at 103) that there is always a pure devotee guru on the planet. Then it is written that if we cannot find that guru, it is because of own lack of sukrti or qualification. One may wonder then why Krsna says that at times He must come again to re-establish real dharma, yada yada hi dharmasya. To me the answer is that the aspirant should always see, "that if there is any lacking then that lacking is within me."

Obviously in the object world things happen such as corruption and scandal even within Gaudiya Vaisnava institutions. It is always difficult to balance and make sense out of the ideal of Krsna Consciousness and what we see in "real life". No one said that it is easy. The real entrance into Krsna bhakti is through humility and surrender in connection with the power source of pure association. To paraphrase (maybe Jesus) "the log is in our own eye."

Once we begin to blame the environment we step outside that realm of humility and surrender and may fall prey to obsessive fault finding. Then we will believe that our failure to really take to Krsna Consciousness is because there is no good association. And by good association in this context I really mean - higher association. One may believe that good association are those that share the same outlook, that things are hopeless because so many have fallen down. Even the mundane positive thinking movement knows that such negativity will eventually block our way and damage our wellbeing on every level.

That is fine but those with your particular philosophical viewpoint on the subject seem to highly stress physical association and Prabhupada made statements about preceptorial association and things that just seem to be completely discounted by the groups from your philosophical viewpoint.

"When thou art living still in sound!"

- Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

"Such transcendental literatures,

even though irregularly composed,

are heard, sung and accepted by

purified men who are thoroughly honest."

(Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagvatam, Preface)

"The potency of transcendental sound

is never minimised because the vibrator

is apparently absent."

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 2.9.8, purport)

"Reception of spiritual knowledge

is never checked by

any material condition.

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 7.7.1, purport)

"I will live forever from my books

and you will utilise."

(Srila Prabhupada, 17/5/75, Berkeley USA)

"...and these books will do everything."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/2/76)

"These are not ordinary books.

It is recorded chanting.

Anyone who reads, he is hearing."

(Srila Prabhupada, 19/10/74, Letter to Rupanuga Das)

"Physical presence is immaterial.

Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master

should be the guidance of life."

(Srila Prabhupada, 19/1/67, Letter to Brahmananda and other students)

"So we should give more stress

on the sound vibration,

either of Krsna or Spiritual Master.

Never think that I am absent from you.

Physical presence is not essential;

presence by message (or hearing)

is the real touch."

(Srila Prabhupada, 2/8/67, Letter to students)

"Krishna and his representative are the same.

Similarly, the spiritual master

can be present wherever the disciple wants.

A spiritual master is the principle,

not the body.

Just like a television can be seen

in thousands of place

by the principle of relay monitoring."

(Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

"Whatever I had to say,

I have already said in my books...

Whether I am present or not does not matter."

(Srila Prabhupada, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)

"In my books the philosophy of Krsna

Consciousness is explained fully..."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/11/74, Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa)

"Diksa is the process

by which one can

awaken his transcendental knowledge

and vanquish all reactions

caused by sinful activity."

Srila Prabhupada's Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya, 15.108, purport

Srila Prabhupada : "Even a moment

association with a pure devotee - all success!"

Revatinandana : "Does that apply to reading

the words of a pure devotee?"

Srila Prabhupada : "Yes"

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/12/70)

"So although a physical body is not present,

the vibration should be accepted as

the presence of the Spiritual Master,

vibration.

What we have heard from the Spiritual Master,

that is living."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/1/69, Los Angeles)

"Every one of you must regularly read our books...,

and automatically all questions will be answered."

(Srila Prabhupada, 24/01/70, Letter to Randhira)

"...you should always read my books daily

and all your questions will be answered..."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/11/74, Letter to Hugo Salemon)

"So utilise whatever time you find

to make a thorough study of my books.

Then all your questions will be answered."

(Srila Prabhupada, 7/1/76, Letter to Upendra)

Devotee : "Srila Prabhupada

when you are not present with us,

how is it possible to receive instructions?

For example in questions that may arise..."

Srila Prabhupada : "Well the questions

are answ...answers are there in my books."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/5/73, Los Angeles)

"If there is no chance to serve

the spiritual master directly,

a devotee should serve him by

remembering his instructions.

There is no difference between

the spiritual masters instructions

and the spiritual master himself.

In his absence therefore,

his words of direction should be

pride of the disciple."

(Srila Prabhupada, C.c. Adi 1.35, purport)

"Anyone who has developed

unflinching faith in the Lord

and the Spiritual Master

can understand the revealed scripture

unfolding before him.

I am sure that even if

I am not physically present before you,

still you will be able to execute

all spiritual duties in the matter

of Krsna Consciousness,

if you follow the above principles."

(Srila Prabhupada, 29/9/67, Letter to Subala)

"As far as my blessing is concerned,

it does not require my physical presence.

If you are chanting Hare Krsna there,

and following my instructions,

reading the books,

taking only Krsna prasadam etc.,

then there is no question of

your not receiving the blessings

of Lord Caitanya,

whose mission

I am humbly trying to push on."

(Srila Prabhupada, 30/6/74, Letter to BalaKrsna)

"You write that you have desire to avail

of my association again,

but why do you forget that

you are always in association with me?

When you are helping my missionary activities

I am always thinking of you,

and you are always thinking of me.

That is real association.

Just like I am always thinking of

my Guru Maharaja at every moment,

although he is not physically present,

and because I am trying to serve him

to my best capacity,

I am sure he is helping me

by his spiritual blessings.

So there are two kinds of association:

physical and preceptorial.

Physical association is not so important

as preceptorial association."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/8/69, Letter to Govinda dd)

Paramananda :

"We are always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada,

simply by your teachings and your instructions.

We are always meditating on your instructions."

Srila Prabhupada : "Thank you.

That is the real presence.

Physical presence is not important."

(Srila Prabhupada, 6/10/77, Vrndavana)

"I am always with you.

Never mind if I am physically absent."

(Srila Prabhupada, 16/9/67, Letter to Jayananda)

"It is sometimes misunderstood that

if one has to associate with persons

engaged in devotional service,

he will not be able to solve the economic problem.

To answer this argument,

it is described here that

one has to associate with liberated persons

not directly, physically,

but by understanding,

through philosophy and logic,

the problems of life."

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 3:31:48, purport)

"Therefore we should take advantage

of the vani,

not the physical presence."

(Srila Prabhupada, 4/11/75, Letter to Suci dd)

"I shall remain your personal guidance,

physically present or not physically

as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Srila Prabhupada, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

"Although according to material vision

His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada

passed away from this material world on

the last day of December 1936,

I still consider his Divine Grace to be

always present with me by his vani,

his words.

There are two ways of association

- by vani and by vapuh.

Vani means words

and vapuh means physical presence.

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable

and sometimes not,

but vani continues to exist eternally.

Therefore,

one must take advantage of the vani,

not the physical presence."

(Srila Prabhupada C.c. Antya, concluding words)

"But always remember that I am always with you.

As you are always thinking of me,

I am always thinking of you also.

Although physically we are not together,

we are not separated spiritually.

So we should be concerned only with

this spiritual connection."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/11/69, Letter to Gaurasundara)

"So we should associate by vibration,

and not by the physical presence.

That is real association."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/08/68, Lectures SB)

"There are two conceptions,

the physical conception and

the vibrational conception.

The physical conception is temporary.

The vibrational conception is eternal.

...When we feel separation from Krsna

or the Spiritual Master,

we should just try to remember their words

or instructions,

and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and

the Spiritual Master

should be association by vibration

not physical presence.

That is real association."(Srila Prabhupada, Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, chapter 4)

Devotee : "...so sometimes

the Spiritual Master is far away.

He may be in Los Angeles.

Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple.

He thinks

"How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?

Srila Prabhupada : "Just follow his order,

Spiritual Master is along with you by his words.

Just like my Spiritual Master is not

physically present,

but I am associating with him by his words."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/08/71)

"We are not separated actually.

There are two - Vani or Vapuh -

so Vapu is physical presence

and Vani is presence by the vibration,

but they are all the same."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/6/70, Letter to Hamsadutta)

I am not an ultimate authority on anything. None of us here are. But I do know a thing or two about GV and Prabhupada's intentions. I am also not rich in brahminical qualities yet I will try to object to what I see is a distortion of the teachings of our sampradaya. Even a sadhaka is expected to do that.

No problem with having a viewpoint and objecting to what you see as distortions.

show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

I don't know that you have. Just the way you speak it seems like you see yourself as the ultimate authority on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and on Prabhupada and his intentions etc and I am not convinced that is brahmanical in quality but who knows for sure.. Maybe you are and maybe you are not, I don't know I guess that is up to Krishna to decide. Mr. Spades or clubs or whatever suit he is started mentioning aparadha as if everyone who doesn't agree with your interpetation is committing aparadha so by that statement I assumed that he is putting himself and yourself on the saintly platform.

Of course you are the sadhus LOL. Especially if you say so yourselves. Prabhupada's clear instructions have no such value of course.

Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny.

Yeah, that is always puzzling to me as well. My understanding of saintly people is that they view themselves as lower than the straw in the street and do not actually view themselves as saintly.

There is no 'zap'. Mantra is not a zap. It is a magical seed, a packet you have to open and gradually learn how to use - it may take decades for you to do that. And you can only receive it person-to-person, from a proper link in a proper sampradaya. What is so hard to understand or accept?

I can understand the concept but your idea of a person to person transfer from a proper link is taking initiation from a guru that eventually falls down and does abominable things. I am not sure I want to undergo such an embarassing thing so I definetly don't feel any need or pressure to run out and get properly initiated.

"Diksa is important for those who do the missionary work for Lord Caitanya."

That statement I can agree with. If you are going to be a guru that accepts disciples etc. then it does seem pretty mandatory to take some sort of formal ceremony even if you know it is just a formality just to give you the credibility within that tradition but as far as realization being dependant on a "zap" from a formal religous ceremony I am not sure I can buy that one. Just my opinion.

Shiva is a form of Visnu, so even Shaivas worship Visnu while they don't know it.

Krsna said "among all Shivas, i m Shankara". There is nothing except Krsna.

Work to unite people, do not work to divide.

If fact, Krsna worship cannot unite people, because most people in this age are pashughnas, so they cannot understand Krsna.

One thing can unite all people: the SAAWITRII gaayatrii, samano mantra, which is for all people regardless of religion. Even buddhists should use the SAAWITRII, because it is not against their beliefs, although it comes from the Veda.

Pay tribute to Mahaatma Gandhi; to the Christians he said "i m Christian". To the Jainas he said "i m Jaina". To Shaivas he said "i m a Shaiva", and so on. He was not a liar. His personal deity was lord Raama. This is the best example for all people to follow.

It is easy to divide; it is good to unite.

I like your broad minded inclusiveness in regards to theism. That is always a beautiful thing to see such a broad minded approach.

I hear quacking, but no longer have to read thru the nonsense proposed by the one who always gets so upset when devotees choose to discuss one of their own, Lord Jesus Christ. I imagine he is quacking again about how Srila Prabhupada is duplicitous and patronizing and pandering to the christian community. If he is, this is the greatest offense against Srila Prabhupada if one is a disciple of his, to minimize his teachings in such a puffed up manner. I actually turned this dude off because of such statements he always makes.

 

Unfortunately, I do read some of his garbage when another tries to answer him and quoting him. It doesnt do any good to quote him, because he argues with himself as well. But he talks about chasing away the good people who would otherwise be here. Why dont you go with them, these sectarian jihadist hindus that hate to hear the mere mention of Lord Jesus Christ. One spammer was already run off because of his rude comments under three names. Are these the spiritual people he is talking about?

 

The thing is, there is a hidden Lord Jesus Christ. He hides from even those who profess allegiance to what they imagine to be him. Lord Jesus Christ masde this exacting prediction "In the future, there will be those who heal the sick and baptize in my name, but I will say to them "I dont know you, get away from me, you have failed to honor the will of he who has sent me""

 

So, we have conversations about Lord Jesus Christ on the spiritual discussions section of audarya fellowship forum. If one scrolls down, one will find a hindu.org forum, a hare krsna.org section. And Lord Jesus makes his appearance there often as well. Why is that? Because Lord Jesus Christ has canvassed all to honor the will of his father who has sent him, and Lord Father Narayana has made Lord Jesus Christ so famous as a spiritual personality in history that he is discussed positively by everyone in the world.

 

Now there is a false jesus, the hero of the armageddonists engaged in genocide for 2000 years in his name. The cotton mathers of the world who burn innocent women for curing infants. The pat robertsons of the world recommending race extermination. The founders of manifest destiny programs to wipe out indigenous cultures using the weapon used to kill christ as their own swords. This is the jesus of fanaticism, and this jesus is also rejected by Lord Jesus Christ himself, in much the same manner that Srila Prabhupada rejects the vaisnava disguised kali cela.

 

But here, we have discussions of the real jesus chrisT. How is he real? Because we receive him from the lips of the devotee Srila Prabhupada, who tells us of his selfless service to his Father. Srila Prabhupada recognized the real Lord Jesus Christ because he has the vision to differentiate between demon and devotee. Those who always spout off about jesus not being up to par are not the authorities, because they have not passed the criteria of being beyond the kanistha adhikari state, meaning they quack because they have no ability to even see a vaisnava. These are the same who will accept white slavery adherants as their guru and come whining about it later when their guru splashes down in some prison somewhere or in some looney bin.

 

So, I accept the authority of Lord Jesus Christ because I am an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada never repeated the same old drivel of the cotton matherites, those who actually declared war on Srila Prabhupadas movement from the very start. Srila Prabhupada hears the real Lord Jesus Christ and works with him in canvassing all to honor the will of the Supreme Lord. They are not against each other, they work in unison.

 

I actually am more disgusted with the real whiner of these forums than the no-holds-barred folk(s) who were edited off yesterday. This offense of accusing my guru maharaja of pandering to the christian by saying nice things about jesus is so blatantly demoniac as well as false. Did Srila Prabhupada pander to the hippie movement? Did he pander to the recreational drug industry? The military industrial congressional complex? Did he pander to the zionists? The sex industry, hollywood, bollywood? Did he pander to the wave of gurus arriving in droves with rock stars as their advertizements?

 

No, Srila Prabhupada does not pander to anyone to gain material advantage or create duplicitous propaganda, He does not say Jesus this and Jesus that like the phony christian ministers who fail to do the will of the Father. My spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, calls him LORD JESUS CHRIST, and my spiritual master has his own trademark that I defy anyone to disprove, he says it AS IT IS.

 

I agree with one thing the dude says, get rid of the whiners.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Went back and was reading this thread and I think this is probably the best post I have ever read on this forum.

No... but in the pursuit of .....knowledge has evolved

 

So you typing any opinion is an illusion?

 

Or that common sense shares that change is pure within time.

 

Is just the same as recognizing what you believe as true will change.

 

 

 

Just the same that to say the words hare crishna hare crishna hare hare, will help you learn how to birth a child. Or that to be humble shows us how to do?

Knowledge is constantly in the midst of change and as life continues in this evolution the consciousness of crishna evolves in the knowledge of truth.

So to honor what truths are represented by the great teachers then honor the change to be inclusive.

Know that knowledge evolves and prepare for the gifts to unfold.

set the beliefs aside; the children are dependent upon our integrity not our faith

Sometimes the way you write really throws me off and I just can not get what you are saying but on this thread for some reason I think I got some of your posts and I can see both sides to this argument. I can see how the materials scientists do sometimes become puffed up and do not give credit to God but I can also see your point about knowledge evolving and preparing for gift to unfold etc.

the personality cult surrounding Prabhupada was (and still is) tremendous, but that is the fault of his groupie disciples, not the GV tradition. As it was said earlier by the prabhu quoting HBV:

 

"In this description the whole process is summarized by saying that the only necessary and indeed essential act in initiation, is the speaking or giving of the mantra, (not the Hare Krishna mantra which is referred to correctly as Hari nam and not mantra) but 'Klim Krishnaya Govindaya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha', by the guru into the disciple's ear (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.243-6)"

 

That is the essence of diksa, not some book knowledge, or theoretical understanding of our philosophy. People who do not understand that point have much to learn and realize.

What exactly happens when the guru whispers in your ear?

Brainwashed by George

(from his last album)

 

Brainwashed in our childhood

Brainwashed by the school

Brainwashed by our teachers

and brainwashed by their rules

 

Brainwashed by our leaders

By our Kings and Queens

Brainwashed in the open and brainwashed

behind the scenes

 

God God God

A voice cried in the wilderness

God God God

it was on the longest night

God God God

An eternity of darkness

God God God

Someone turned out the spiritual light

 

Brainwashed by the Nikkei

Brainwashed by Dow Jones

Brainwashed by the FTSE

Nasdaq and secure loans

Brainwashed us from Brussels

Brainwashing us in Bonn

Brainwashing us in Washington

Westminster in London

 

God God God

You are the wisdom that we seek

God God God

The lover that we miss

God God God

Your nature is eternity

God God God

You are Existence, Knowledge, Bliss

 

The soul does not love, it is love itself

It does not exist, It is existence itself

It does not know, It is knowledge itself

"How to Know God" Page 130*

They brainwashed my great uncle

Brainwashed my cousin Bob

They even got my grandma when she was

working for the mob

Brainwash you while you're sleeping

While you're in a traffic jam

Brainwash you while you're weeping

While still a baby in your pram

Brainwashed by the Military

Brainwashed under duress

Brainwashed by the media

You're brainwashed by the press

Brainwashed by computer

Brainwashed by mobile phones

Brainwashed by the satellite

Brainwashed to the bone

 

God God God

Won't you lead us through this mess

God God God

From the places of concrete

God God God

Nothing's worse than ignorance

God God God

I just won't accept defeat

 

God God God

Must be something I forgot

God God God

Down on Bullshit Avenue

God God God

If we can only stop the rot

God God God

Wish that you'd brainwash us too

 

Namah Parvati Pataye Hare Hare Mahadev

Namah Parvati Pataye Hare Hare

Namah Parvati Pataye Hare Hare

 

Shiva Shiva Shankara Mahadeva

Hare Hare Hare Hare Mahadeva

Shiva Shiva Shankara Mahadeva

Shiva Shiva Shankara Mahadeva

 

Namah Parvati Pataye Hare Hare

Namah Parvati Pataye Hare Hare

Shiva Shiva Shankara Mahadeva

Shiva Shiva Shankara Mahadeva

 

*taken from the book 'How to Know God - the yoga aphorism of Patanjali by Swami Prabhavananda'

Wow, gotta admit those are some great lyrics.

I never could understand why the Beatles were so popular. I thought their lyrics were just plain bad. I did like a lot of John Lennon's songs and I did like George Harrison as he did seem to be very humble and unassuming. I did like the Traveling Wilberrys or whatever their name was that contained Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, George Harrison and some other people, they were really good.

It doesnt matter what we think when we die, most of us will be thinking, "Oh s---". What matters is what krsna is thinking when we die. George Harrison was very pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. All the speculation about his smoking, his drug use, his SRF and TM leanings, none of this has anything to do with anything. Krsna was thinking of george harrison as he passed away.

 

Shastra confirms my statement here. Krsna thwarted Yama in the jurisdictional question in the ajamila matter. Yama confirms that George is not in his jurisdiction, because he was initiated by Chaitagurudeva.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

That seems to be a fair point to me based on my limited understanding of Prabhupadas books.

That is cool. Sounds like George was chanting right up to the end.

I thought I read somewhere that George wasn't that much in Krishna Consciousness when he died or he was into Siva or something like that. Can't remember exactly. So on that front Mr. Spades or Clubs or whatever suit he is may have some merit to his statement but I don't know for sure, how can anyone know what George was thinking when he died.

Precisely! It even requires firm faith to take a proper diksa. There is no doubt that without proper diksa our bhajana never gets real deep.

 

Why would one not want to take a proper Vaishnava diksa??? Only whimsical people think like that.

I think it might have something to do with the personality cult surrounding gurus and seeming pressure to take initiation from this or that guru when ultimately it seems that should be a personal decision and not be influenced by peer pressure etc. Just a guess on my part, don't know for sure.

That is a very poignant point in regards to material hardship being more mercy than material goodness can ever be.

I don't perceive ritual piety and all its obligations as 'richness'. The beauty of spirituality is its simplicity. The bane of materiality is its unceasing complication, the unnerving attention we have to give to all the little conditions to stave off inauspiciousness.

What I am attracted to in a person of spiritual advancement is, in fact that person's simplicity. His/her ability to see God in everything, even the most mudane and unexceptional.

The form of Gopal the cowherd boy and His simple rustic pastimes suprasses in sweetness the form Dwarkadish and all his complex 'rich' opulence.

I can appreciate that thought. If I were ever to pursue Krishna Consciousness seriously it would be to simplify things and try to recapture that childlike approach to life rather than the overcomplicated stress festival of material life.

Earlier I bought in a discussion of raganuga bhakti. Then, it seems it was perceived I was bringing in a leaning of vaidhi vs raga. This was not my intention. I am trying to paint a picture of the 'big picture'. From start to finish (if I can say start to finish - that is not quite right).

 

You say it so well here Mahak. Personally I have not taken brahmana initiation or 'harinaam initiation'. Why? Because of the desire to please my guru I am waiting. It would a great mistake if I was to accept a formality for show or honor, without the necessary realization in my heart of following gurus instructions for those initiations.

 

cbrahma gave the quote earlier that initiation does not depend on formality and another member gave the example of George Harrison. These two are great examples of initiation of the heart. When guru and disciple accept on the heart level...that is it! That is initiation! The disciple in his heart says...'this teaching is truth...I accept and desire to follow'. At some point then the formallization will possibly take place (not always). And the process begins...of external and internal meeting.

 

Why did I talk about raganuga bhakti, vaidhi bhakti, deity worship etc...(I forgot to mention love of God)! Our tradition covers a large scope, and the more we move into its depth, by reading, by chanting, by offering respects etc...we can see finer and finer elements of Sri Caitanya's teachings and esoteric life.

 

What concerns me is if we begin to say, 'this is not necessary, that is not necessary'....and eventually saying 'oh prissy pitesim, dead tradition, unecessary ritualistic practice etc etc!'. Then we may be discarding something very rich. Something the acarays have chosen to continue on, to pass down... because of the richness.

 

In the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, people came along and espoused paths of spontaneous flow only, and various other things. The acaryas wrote treatises to stop these thinkers teachings taking foothold (and most of their teachings died away). The acarayas used scriptural basis and deep realization of Sri Caitanya's bhakti to teach the public of the inadequacy of these divergent teachings.

 

The world has changed in the last five hundred years. Will all this tradition be necessary in the future? I question these things all the time. Many people these days see tradition as a bad word. I do not. But I am a 'progressive traditionalist'. Tradition is not a bad thing, many wonderful things have come from mankinds spiritual unfoldment over its history. Maybe it would be foolish to disregard everything of our past. But...if the past stops the flow of living in the present, in time, place, and circumstance...and begins to stifle the flow of service to Krsna, if the world changes very much...then we must consider what to let go of! Wisdom needs to be used. Those who are purely anti-tradition are limited in their vision in my opinion.

 

Deity worship involves many rules and regulations, and not all will be attracted. Srila Prabhupada at one point encouraged his disciples to make Gaura-Nitai dolls and hand them out on the street. He said if people put these cloth dolls in their homes and sing to them, the Lord would be very happy! This is moving with the times isnt it! He called them 'the good luck happy dolls'.

 

Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a very broad science, that is why I mentioned some higher aspects of our tradition in this conversation....to try and show that it is not wise to leave out anything, when the goal is so rich...love of God in spontaneous mood.

 

But even the simplest practicioners like myself, who offer a little bhoga, chant the names, and read some....are not left out of the possibility of love of God. Jaya Sri Sri Nitaai-Gauranga! The whole depth of the tradition, all the rules and angas of bhakti, all the external clothes and sikhas, the siddha pranali....all these things may not be in my reach! But...if I chant the name, take prasadam, and read the books....and offer full respects and love to the total richness of our tradition as mentioned above, then maybe, just maybe...kripa begins to come down. That is my prayer!

 

For me that is a good approach to bhakti...rather than rejecting tradition (or criticizing it with poor fund of knowledge).

Those are good points even though I am not familiar with all your terminology. As the world continues to degrade however the simplest thing for people it seems to me is the maha mantra. People in general just are not going to be intelligent enough or spiritually pure enough to understand all the traditions you are talking about and I admit I don't understand them and I am frightened by excessive ritualism and generally associate excessive ritualism with religous phonieism, so I am guilty of some level of prejudice in this regard. Maybe I am wrong and these pure traditions that you speak of will become the dominant force in our civilization but it seems until that time the maha mantra is much more practical and merciful.

I do not see this as a special or unusual case at all. I see it as the power of the Holy Name as it acts in every case.

 

It is not that in the vast majority of cases the Holy Name does depend on the purifing process leading up to mantra initiation and then after mantra initiation the Holy Name gains potency. No I don't accept that even remotely.

 

The other processes of sadhana only serve to help keep one associated with the holy name otherwise the nine processes of devotional service are all fulfilled simply by chanting the holy name.

 

 

 

The holy name is self-sufficent.

Yeah, the way I look at it if the holy name is not self-sufficient there was no point to the incarnation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Him showing special mercy to the fallen souls of the Kali-yuga. If it is not self-sufficient then Caitanya Mahaprabhu didn't really have any special mercy and might as well just have been a mundane religionist.

You speak so ignorantly without proper evidence on the behalf of tradition and so much against what Prabhupada and his spiritual master have said and accomplished that it only re-affirms the uselessness of your claims to Indian Vaisnavism by some prissy pietism that has obviously withered on the vine and become impotent to engage others in the Yuga-dharma but rather to celebrate its exclusivity and esoteric isolation.

Who needs it.

I just disregard the prissy pietism aspects of Krishna Consciousness and take the simple stuff like what theist posted. I find the simple stuff to be very beautiful and worthwhile but the complicated ritualism just is not my cup of tea but if it has some use for people who am I to critisize. That is why I find the story of Jada Bharata so entertaining because his father was trying to teach him to become the perfect brahmana and a perfect expert in the Vedas and Jada Bharata acted like a deaf dumb idiotic madman so his father would leave him alone so he could continue to think about Krishna and chant the Hare Krishna mantra.

He did it every time (formal initiation), yet he considered it unneccessary??? Strange logic. Besides what is the shastric definition of a Vaishnava?

 

"Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas."

 

What Prabhupada said must be viewed in the light of shastra. End of story.

I read somewhere that Prabhupada initiated some disciples by tape recording.

At the time of my diksa initiation (1980) he represented the parampara properly. It is not just my opinion. He was the obedient servant of Sri Guru and our Parampara.

Maybe so, who am I to judge. I just wasn't aware that bonafide diksa gurus can fall down but I have read of temporary falldowns in Srimad Bhagavatam. Hopefully that is the case with your guru and maybe someday he will rectify himself.