Tattvadasa

And the Guru will not abuse or use his disciples for fame or wealth. He will not make a comfortable life for himself at the expense of his followers. His life will be an open book. He will put emphasis on flaming the small desire we may have inside. He will know how to bring to a head and help us to see our own shortcoming in a way that is palatable and helps us to improve. He will rarely humiate his disciple in front of others. He will treat his disciples like a loving father treats his children. And one of the most important things is a guru will respect his own disciples. Knowing that by the association of his disciples and their yearning to know about Krishna brings out his own Krishna Con. so he will thank his disciples for helping him to be Krishna Con. Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja used to refer to his own disciple as 'My Prabhu' 'my master' when refering to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. The guru is one who never thinks himself guru. He only thinks himself servant of his own guru and servant of his disciples. the good qualities of Sri Guru are unlimited.. these are just a few.

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Good thinking tackle-berry. Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Author of several books, including Christianity: Among the Religions of the World and One World and India. Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century. "It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family." The tolerance of Hinduism was recognized by Toynbee, who on many occasions contrasted the exclusivity of the Jewish religion, based on the Jewish belief that the Jews are the chosen people with the large tolerance of the Hindus and Buddhist. This plague of exclusiveness, he claims, was inherited by both the Christians and Muslims: hence their lamentable record. Yea they weren't all bad the British. It is too bad this is not the poplular version of India. Instead to this day all the negative stuff the missionaries imagined is still embedded in the psyche of most of us from the west.

Yes I agree. The movie could have been more accurate. Telling the real story of religion on the planet can only help Mahaprabhus cause. The Vaishnavas have no reason to white wash anything. We have nothing to hide. Telliing the truth about the Abrahamic religions will help give us more dignity. The truth is on our side. 'And they shall know the truth and the truth shall release them from concocted religious influence'. As Prabhupada said, 'all religion comes from India'. When people learn the real evolution of western religion they will want to look back at the origins of religion. Such people will look at the Veda. Those with good piety will then naturally conclude the Srimad Bhagavatam is the cream of all religion. I am going to write the burning cross and suggest they do an accurate flash movie.

Ok so bija seems to be bowing out in a dignified manner. But for those still watching here is some validation for what we are doing. Lets not forget Mahaprabhu himself engaged in such 'negative' activity. When the sankirtana was curtailed by the Kazi, Mahaprabhu organized cvil protest and he was not afraid to argue issues. CC Adi 17.6: By dint of pride in His education, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, not caring for anyone else, defeated all kinds of learned scholars while executing His studies. And he said... CC Adi 17.165: "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance. CC Adi 17.166: "Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow. CC Adi 17.167: "There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument." And the same mistakes and illusion can be found in the other Abrahamic religious texts like the Bible and Torah. THere is nothing offensive about pointing this out.

The historical facts are most all the the Bible is borrowed from other places. Many of the Old Testament stories were taken, or perhaps given, by the Zoroastrians. The doctrines and dogmas within Christianity can be found in previous cults of the time. They were all assimilated into Christianity in order to make the super hero god-man Jesus. The only original doctrine found within Christianity is the doctrine of original sin. http://www.burningcross.net/index.html

Thank you for your input. As you know even in the spiritual world there is sometimes disagreement. Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

You call defeating in argument and logic those who put forward doctrines that breed Jihadists focusing on the negative? I fail to catch your logic here. What we are doing will help eliminate Jihadist mentality by destroying the dogmas and doctrines that breed it.

If that were the attitude then Madhva Acharya would never have succeeded. Ramanuja Acharya would not have succeeded. Bhaktisiddhanta would not have succeeded.Baladeva Viyabhusana would not have validated our sampradaya. And on an on. You are underthinking and mimicking the attitude of those you defend and you obviously have not studied the history of Vaishnavism. Debate and defeating opposing theology has its roots in Vedic thought and has always been a way to broadcast Vaishnava movements and other Vedic rooted movements. We only point to individuals when it is absolutly necesary and stick to theologies and misconceptions and cut away at them. However of course on occasion we must name a fantatical individual who imbibes what he has learned from his scripture. I am sure no Christian would mind if we criticize persons such as Osama Bin Ladin. However when the same fanatacism is pointed out in Christianity we are the bad guys. We do not care for the politcally correct Rodney King 'can't we all just get along' sampradaya. Bible theology breeds fanatcism. But under-thinkers will have a hard time digesting this. Especially those sentimentally attached to the Bible story.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/Religion.swf

In our humble opinion there is a very great segment of western society that has rejected religion altogether based on their dealings with the big three religions. They have recognized the absurdness of the theology at the basis of these religions and their complete disconnect from science and history. These are very intelligent free thinking people who respond very well to logic and reason. Many of them have very high morals and really do want the truth. Many have no understanding of Vaishnavism or Vedic thought and have simply dismissed it altogether as just another religion based on their dealings with the big three. It is really to them we are preaching. NOT to those who adhere to out dated religious systems like Christianity. That is not our audience. Mahaprabhu and his followers must find new ways to reach the masses and no section can be left out. Many people are turning to atheism. This seems to be the evolution of western society. So they must be approached in a different way in order to win them over. If they perceive we promote religious texts that are completely illogical they will at once put us in the category of fanatics. I believe Srila Prabhupada skimmed the cream of Christianity when he came to the west. I am sure there are still some to reach but I do not see that segment of society as a very fertile preaching ground at this time in history. And I know for a fact many young people are being swayed toward atheism because science and history is more and more debunkiing the myths of the Abrahamic relgions. While at the same time in recent history the same scientist are confirming the validity of the Veda. It is now accepted by most scholars and historians that the worship of Krishna pre-dates all others and the Veda is the oldest religious work on earth. Many archaeological discoveries in the past few decades is giving more and more credence to the Veda. We have much going for us at this time in history. So it may appear we are doing a lot of cutting. But that is just the nature of the jungle we are entering.

To blame Jesus for the condition of western society is a big stretch of the imagination and I am not sure that is what our guest was alluding to. However to blame western society, imperialism and colonialism for India's degraded condition is not a stretch of the imagination by any means. It is not the single solitary reason for India's moral decay but it is a very large contributing factor. It is also now a contributing factor in India's new economy and growing wealth. Western based colonist and imperialist have always found ways to destroy cultures and then rebuild them, replacing the old cultures with the western version of civilization. The British destroyed the ancient Indian school system and let education lie idle for decades. And yes it was Christians who molded the modern education system we find in India today. Now the schools are teaching western curriculum and history. The village school system had vedic roots but was destroyed by the British invaders who were indeed all Christians. Where the schools taught eastern history from the Veda before the British arrived now they teach the Veda is myth. Where the schools taught Krishna and all the demigods were real personalities and historical persons they now teach all the Veda is a myth and all the characters mythical. However they teach Jesus is an historical person, they teach Jesus is not a myth and was a real live person. No they do not teach Christianity in the schools per-se they merely lay the seed of doubt about India's heritage teaching it is myth. This has caused many Indians to doubt their own heritage and be ashamed of it. It is a type of cultural genocide masquerading as modern education. Now all of India goes by the Christian calendar, takes Sunday off like all Christians do, celebrate the Christian New Year etc. etc. etc. In the not so recent past different cultures were destroyed by the sword, deities and temples destroyed, and people forced to convert. Now societies are being destroyed in a much more clever and seemingly human way. But it is the same old western mentality, our way is the best and everything else should be replaced by our system. "I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators (all Christians) , when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished (in other words they destroyed the school system). The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his program. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British administrator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a program of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill-able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls." (Mahatma Gandhi at Chatham House, London, October 20, 1931) Western thought helped to mold western society. But it was Chrisitianity that in many ways help develope the thought. As I pointed out earlier it was Christianity that took the divinity out of nature and paved the way for extended exploitation. This extended exploitative mentality has culminated in capitolism. The evolution of capitalism has created the Corporation who I believe embodies the age of Kali greater than any other single entity at this time. The 'throw away society' that rapes, pillages and plunders mother earth to keep the consumers happy is the result of western culture and our culture does indeed have its roots in Christianity. The war in Iraq is the most recent example of the rape, pillage and plundering that has gone on for centuries. Our society needs to keep the fires burnings at any cost. So the crusade continues into the new century. Those who cannot make the connections have not been paying attention and do not know western history. Concerning the media. It is a fact Christians DO control most of the media in India. I believe the media in America is corporate controlled. Most likly becasue India is imitating the west, corporation control will eventually win out. 8 out of 10 people in America claim to be Christian. SO without doing any research I would say it is a logical guess to say at least 8 out of 10 media outlets are run by Christians today. Media control in the west is becoming smaller and smaller and more controlled. But who are the controllers? How many of the CEO's who sit on the boards of these corporations claim to be Christian? I would guess at least 8 out of 10. I am not saying this is some deliberate conspiracy by Christians to take over the world. It is the Judaeo-Christian psyche at work. It is a type of mentality that has evolved. No there are no secret meetings of an elite underground evil network of want to be world controllers. What is happening is the natural evolution of the exploitive hedonistic consumer society mentality. SO we are uncovering the root of this mentality and where it originated and Christianity is strongly implicated. Now if you want to say these people were not Christians or are not Christians who do these things is like saying some one who chants Hare Krishna, wears the dress and worships Krishna is not a Hare Krishna. If you want to split hairs on who is a real devotee or who is a real Christian that is your freedom. But the people we are talking about do worship Jesus, go to Christian Churches, eat the body and blood of Jesus etc. etc. etc. therefore they are indeed Christians by definition of the word. America is considered a Christian nation by every other nation on earth because the population is somewhere around 77 to 80% Bible believing, Jesus worhipping, church going Christians. A very high percentage of this 77 to 80% take the Bible to be the literal word of God.

Allow me to diagree with you. Yes the world is a stoolhouse we should try to get out of. It is the place of maya. That does not mean we do not need to know how the maya is working. I think we should understand what is happening in the world. There is a lot more happening behind the curtain that many of us are completely oblivious to. I think we should educate ourselves about the deceptive nature of current governments in power and try to speak the truth about what is happening worldwide on such issues as global warming, globalization, one world government etc. . Not just sit back chanting hare krishna trying to be aloof and not knowing what is happening around us. I think the Vaishnavas can make a difference and should be more outspoken about current events.

I think many of the articles have been researched well. Yes it is a myth buster that is for sure. The Klu Klux Klan were a Christian group lets not forget. Protecting society from evil influence that is what they thought they were doing and still think they are doing. The Bible is still read at their gatherings. I know I came from that region. . I believe that is the point of the symbol. A burning cross is the symbol of hatred, atrocity, intolerance and so on that Christianity had imbibed for centuries. I found a lot of good reads on the site and think it is a very good source of information concerning the history of Christianity. I would like to see one done about Islam.

Yes I would say some literal interpretations are for those with a particular adhikari. It is not wrong to take things literally. Some things are meant to be taken literally and others not. For instance the injunction that one should cut the tongue from the mouth of an offender. In this case lets not take it literally but understand strong emphasis has been put in order for us to understand it is a very bad thing to blaspheme a devotee of the Lord. The same type of fundamentalist who would gas an active homo-sex person would also cut your tongue out and start an iquisition to purify society. We know that Vaishnavism is the oldest religion on earth. But have you ever read many stories where people had their tongues cut out? No of course not. The stories that we do hear of beheadings etc always have a happy ending. But some with a Judaeo Christian psyche might consider cutting out ones tongue as a way to purify them. This is not different than putting one on the rack and torturing them for purification. Consider this. In math numbers represent something. They are only symbols. Stories can also be like that. The characters represent something. It is not necessary to take it all literally. It is science. As you know Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur made novels and stories. Are they to be taken literally. Not necessarily. I would like to think these things happened somewhere in time. But understanding the spiritual truth is the important thing. Of course the 10th canto and Krishnas pastimes can and should be taken literally in my opinion. All of Krishnas pastimes I take literally. Many of the stories in the Bhagavatam I also take literally. But when it comes to such things as the Universal form or Brahma sitting on a Lotus flower, if we were looking from a distance I do not think it would look exactly like that. I think the Bhagavatam in many cases explain things in a a way our minds can grasp it using characters as symbols. On the Jesus subject. I believe in fact he did not exist. That is my gut feeling. Or if he did he was not the person we have been led to believe he is. Perhaps the account is a fictionalized version of a real person. But the ideal that some propose that he entailed is certainly worthy of consideration. But that ideal cannot be found in the Bible if we take the Bible to be the history. So where does the ideal come from? And as far as wild speculations that he was Lord Brahma, this must be dismissed. That is just mental concoction. No acharya teaches that. This is how I see it.