Bhakta Devarsi

Where I come from, the word dream has its root in the activity done while ones physical body is at rest. Day or Night. We may experience a dream. The difference between the perceptual experience of the dream state, for most people, even lucid dreamers, is vastly different from their day to day waking experience on the physical 3D dimension of the earthly loka, and thus easily identified as a dream. The simple analogy is that it is something that is done while sleeping, and certain things may occur to our personal body in a dream that has no bearing on our personal body upon awakening. So if we can perceive, in our own lives, the experience of wanting to enjoy separately from Sri Krsna, then this is a sure sign that we are becoming aware that we are ignorant of what we are assured is our most blissful and constitutional position. And that ignorance is analagous to being asleep, while the sudden awareness of it is like becoming aware of being in a dream. But the material world is quite real, and eternal. Even if it is simply a dream for Maha Visnu. Since we can be present within his dream with full awareness of who he is, and with full awareness of having a confidential and loving relationship with his personal servants, such an acheived state must be considered to be like being AWAKE. NOT DREAMING OF SEPERATE MATERIAL DESIRES AND EXPERIENCING THE RESULTANT PROCESS OF MENTALLY CONCOCTED SPECULATIONS. AWAKE. While geographically situalted in Sri Visnu's dreamscape. All glories to Maha Visnu's sublime dream of pleasing his beloved. Hare Krsna

I gather it is a split second thing. You know the Jiva is either absorbed in the body of Visnu (post universal dissolution) awaiting redistribution according to past desires and advancement, or just being newly created from the marginal potential energy, in which case the appearance in pure neutrality at the banks of the Viraja could stimulate the original movement of that jiva to go either way. The only way anyone could have a memory of who they were last, would be by Krsna's arrangement, and I gather this does not happen very often. The point is that in the split second of desiring to enjoy one's self, which leads to developing the consciousness of duality, and thus hatred (aversion) to serving the Lord, must happen to one who never actually enjoyed conscious reciprocally loving service of the Lord. They simply had an awesome darshan of the Lord and his associates from a distance, while glancing over their shoulder after already enticed by Maha Maya to head for the realm of illusory pleasure. Apparently this is enough for us to remember the Lord unconsciously when in great distress, such as in the womb. Srila Prabhupada took a very extended lateral liberal view of "serving the Lord in Godhead". As Guruvani repeatedly points out, this must have been a preaching method to reach the extraordinarily false-egocentric westerners, and was technically the truth of the siddhanta. A master preacher. He hooked them in real nicely, and gave them everything they wanted, including a big fat institution they could run to the ground. Simultaneously, he gave the more discriminating among us the goods to see the higher level of how to understand who we are and where we came from. And the most discriminating don't even care much or speak of the issue because they consider it irrelevant to the path ahead, Crow and Tal fruit for sure. Jaya Prabhupada Jaya Bolenatha

SB 4.28.53 portion of purport: The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varaha Purana, He expands Himself in visnu-tattva (the svamsa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnamsa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the Prema-vivarta it is said: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead. By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body. So, according to this, it is possible that some jivas fall down from the service of the Lord, (not to be misconstrued with serving Maha Maya who is "one with the Lord.") We fall down because we develop a consciousness of duality, this causes us to hate something we are already on some level cognizant of, service to the Lord. So we want to be him or at least imitate him. This is congurent with the neutrality of being a living entity on the shore of the Viraja river and being in full view, in awe, of the spiritual kingdom. This witnessing with awe is pleasing to the Lord so could be considered our first service to him. But there is no mood of service on our part, and Maha Maya is pretty awesome too, being invested with his own potency. And since Krsna desires to expand his pastimes through the impregnating of jivas into the material world, this all works out quite nicely. We leaned toward her. Time to do the needful to fortified with the mellow of service so as not to flirt with the unsteadiness of impersonal awe, at least throw some reverence into the mix, there is a person to revere more than our self, and Maha Maya put together. That really kicks off the infinite spiral of service, but requires quite a humble attitude regarding our own self estimation. Jaya Prabhupada, Hare Krsna

Sri Krsna is a person. If a living entity has a relationship with Sri Krsna in the mellow of Santa Rasa, we can speak of the relationship as personal. That (no longer) conditioned living entity is consciously giving his full attention to the person of Sri Krsna with a neutral mood. The spiritual bodily form that Living entity is acting through is not a limiting factor in considering it a personal relationship at that time. Hare Krsna

I hear you. I believe that this is a symptom of remaining to close, for to long, to the association of such offenders. Fallen neophytes don't want help yet. They create this bubble of deadly stench around them for a reason. I am certain that the more discriminating devotees will gradually leave such in the dust, and they will be little more than a rumor, until the Lord sees fit to have a confrontation occur. In the meantime, I know it is best for my spiritual health to ignore the existence of such groups of people, unless I stumble on them during the Lord's business. This means skipping certain webpages, and skipping the posts of certain persons as well. Hare Krsna Prabhu

Well, just consider the centripital force of the cultic tendency in a human, which is to seek some central point to deify, whether the false ego, some forefather or monarch, demigod or demon. It is there in anyone. What better person to have as the center, the Pole star of a cult, than a pure devotee. SB 3.13.3 VERSE: O best of the virtuous, the original king of kings [Manu] was a great devotee of the Personality of Godhead Hari, and thus it is worth hearing of his sublime character and activities. Please describe them. I am very eager to hear BHAKTIVEDANTA PURPORT: Srimad-Bhägavatam is full of the transcendental topics of the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees. In the absolute world there is no difference in quality between the Supreme Lord and His pure devotee. Therefore, hearing the topics of the Lord and hearing of the character and activities of the pure devotee have the same result, namely, the development of devotional service. We infuse our culture with the blessings of the greatest Cult Icon, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, every time we speak of the character and activities of HDG A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. And doing so develops our devotional service. The fact that some groups of persons are of such evolutionary moment that they would twist Iskcon into a mundane personality cult, under the guise of worship and chastity of and to Srila Prabhupada is a side issue to those who would be part of the Main Plan to spread Sankirtana Culture throughout the land with Srila Prabhupada's blessings and instruction as the guiding light. He once said told a devotee you may keep my picture on your altar if you need to. But he seemed to be encouraging the disciples attention on Sri Sri Gaura Nitai and Sri Sri Radha Krsna. That is glorious. He gave himself in ways to benefit those who would need to make his murti and name a talisman and foundation to be "leader" of the fallen neophytes, and equally to the already somewhat green yet strongly independent brahminical or Ksyatria types who rejected institutional abuses from the start. He wanted to set up standards for the brahminical types to follow, under the shelter and cooperation of Ksyatrias, and let them be the cultural center in their area representing his presentation of Mahaprabhu's cult of Sankirtana. Persons who can start a cult around them of distributing the Holy names and Krsna Prasadam, who do not deviate from Guru Sadhu and Sastric conclusion in their presentation of the Science of Bhakti Yoga, should be considered to be empowered and their instruction should be considered the culture that we need to add to our fallen lifestyles. Proceeding without deviating from Guru Sadhu and Sastra is the trick. Til then, nothing like learning within one's father's brahminical learning village, which is what Iskcon was supposed to be by now.

Prabhu, the choice to leave could only come from an eternal servant, Like Jaya and Vijaya, and that is not a fall down. It is a descent. They may be under the influence of Yoga Maya when they arrive within Durga's Prison house, and exhibit the symptoms of demoniac lifestyle, but they are remembering the Lord quite often, in the mood of rebellion and envy. Sometimes I think that many of the people who try to use Srila Prabhupada's teachings to whimsically convince people of concepts they are not ready to understand, may be nitya siddhas who are taking a demon lifetime and are just playing at being envious of Srila Prabhupada's ability to be a teacher to all. If any person reads the Gita and Bhagavatam from beginning to end, and associates with other sincere and honest aspiring bhaktas, that person will figure out what his position was previously if he really needs to know. Otherwise, the focus should be on sadhana to become more attached to devotional service so we can get liberated from the present condition. That goes for the nitya siddhas too you know. Sudarshan Prabhu says so. Hare Krsna

Nice Presentation KB. Hare Krsna

Problem is, we cannot actually divorce any position within the spiritual or material realms from being part of Krsna's lila. And Krsna is experiencing it all personally, through his Paramatma feature. While inconceivably remaining aloof from all but his experiences in his home village of Vrndaban. It may be inconceivable, but that don't make it false. There was never a time nor will there ever be where a living entity is not participating in Krsna's lila in a way in which Krsna is directly consciously aware of the factual existence and condition of that living entity. That the living entity may not be aware of this truth is a different story, and has no bearing on the truth of the principle. And then, there are those who are already in some realized rasa with Krnsa in the spiritual world, and they descend (not fall) into Maha Maya's realm, and they can get the experience, via Yoga Maya, of being in material nescience and then awakened by their Guru Maharaja. For these, they were "Formerly with Krsna in his Lila or Sport". They may be experiencing a motion from Santa rasa or any other rasa, to one higher. The distinction being that while being with Krsna in his lila in a way where only he is Aware of it, is ONE yet Different than being with Krsna in his lila where you are aware and attracted to him and who he is. Always expanding.

Awakening, reawakening, it is the same thing for our purposes. We are now asleep so we must awaken. Even if we have some soft faith we may apply that to the consideration and decide that at the awakening, the Perfect Lord will reveal what we need to know about the type of relationship we are waking up to, and it will perfectly match our internal desires concerning our type of Love for him. Remember we are always in our Original Constitutional Position of being at Service, even when we are serving Maha Maya Devi, we are serving the Lord through the personal representative of his own external material energy. We awaken to the fact that we have the option to use our natural tendency to serve in service to the superior nature of Sri Krsna's internal potency, represented by Sri Guru. Santa Rasa is the first stage, it appears to be neutral, but there is a very subtle dasya aspect because Krsna enjoys that there are living entities in Santa rasa, and therefore his pleasure is being served.

Hare Krsna The spiritual body revivalists use that same concept to inflate their mind with artificial self esteem. This is a trick by the false ego. It paralyzes the Jiva from recognizing the true state of fallenness and suffering they are in, and gives them a sense of already being finished with sadhana, when in fact they have fallen into sahajyaism. There is much more gravity and vigor to ones awareness of their role of serving or offending in their immediate relationships when there is something they must attain by dint of their own effort built on purification of their TRUE CURRENT STATE OF FALLENESS AND MATERIAL SELFISH TENDENCIES, through taking poison (discipline) that turns to nectar later. Srila Prabhupada mentions in Nectar of Devotion that a person who engages in regulative devotional service will, in time, discover that their regulative service BECOMES A SPONTANEOUS EVENT. This matches perfectly well with the awakening in the sadhakas mind of his desiring to emulate and serve a resident of Vraja dham. Thus the beginning of raganuga bhakti. As promised in NOD ch. 5. No external pranali guru necessary. Just do your the regulative service offered by the Spiritual Master, and let the bliss begin. Jaya Prabhupada

Sentiments? The strict adherence to the orders of the Mahabhagavat Acharya is mere sentiment? A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada gave those "subservient" orders. Let's see, I think he gave them according to the condition of the people he was facing, and that they were to serve the end of "to be Krishna conscious and spread Krishna Consciousness to others". We did not know how to do that. He instructed us. He changed his orders sometimes, sometimes he did not. If someone can't keep up with the current status of the instruction of the Acharya, perhaps they need to find another Guru to follow. Or just follow their speculative mind on how to "continue the mission" but at least call it what it is. MY CULT. The cultic tendency of the human being is to be centrifically attracted to a central person and their expression. The fortunate persons dovetail their cultic tendency by surrounding one worthy of being the center of a cult. The rest are looking to be the center of a cult, and follow the leader with a similar level of charisma and self-expression, hoping to climb the ladder to the top and become the center someday too. Each father does this to some degree by attracting wife and children due to fruitive labors. Each kanistha "guru" who strikes out on his own does the same. And this forum is full of such. Just look for those who try to distract others from inquiring as to the latest status of Srila Prabhupada's mission and instructions on a matter, by claiming that such instructions are dated, expired, out of touch with the current reality unfolding before us, etc etc, blah blah. And as far as relating to people, Srila Prabhupada never ever changed a principle of the siddhanta to cater or patronize to a person. If a person had some extreme or eccentric habit, he would alter that person's sadhana, and give them an approach tailored to them, but that might mean they only get to visit a temple for arati and other public functions, and not live there worshiping on the alter every day. The popular populist cultists on this forum are implying that Gaudiya Vaisnavism needs to become more user friendly to the "mainstream" mass of people, but such adjustments are left to the jurisdiction of the uttama Guru, who can take dictation from supersoul to make adjustments in sadhana without watering down the principles and goals the sadhana is made for. The last person who will be successful at such a thing is one who has rejected the recent current link Acharya in the Sampradaya, and instead speculates on where that Acharya went wrong in his application and what might be more suitable to new people who approach the speculator. Enjoy the cults folks, we all got one, Mahaprabhu's is my cup of tea, and Centering around a Mahabhagavat Acharya's instructions seems the most direct entrance to such a sacred circle, and we all know what happens when we follow the cult of a neophyte or madhyam "guru". Nectar of Devotion ch.5 :A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. Hare Krsna

The only reason why neophytes will have a muddied mind, and make the type of statements that Kulapavana makes is because they have a very active and fertile intellect, and thus look out at what all the cheaters did with Srila Prabhupada's perfect instructions and decide, "well, if all those instructions were so easily taken advantage of, and manipulated, and those who did so were thus highly enabled to cheat thousands of people, perhaps I can adjust the concept of spiritual sadhana in a way where no one can abuse it." Thus they speak of going to the root of the problem, the cause, and learning from the "mistakes". It is actually a laudable sentiment, because such neophytes do not like to see people suffer, and seek to prevent such suffering. Unfortunately they condemn themselves to failure in their quest for amelioration of the suffering of those who would be cheated, because their speculative tactic must ultimately reject most of what the Acharya "instituted" as sadhana. Therefore, they will become the leader of their own institution, the sun where other neophytes orbit around, and learn of Vaisnavism. And in the beginning, he will have "rooted out" so many of the practices which were abused, and instituted practices that are more natural or agreeable to the mindset of those around him. In order not to disturb their minds you see. But mark my words, this will end in disaster. At some point or another. Under the aegis of adjusting for time place and circumstance, he will have watered down the principled approach as offered by the most recent empowered Acharya. The Guru's orders are perfect. It is the NON-EXECUTION of such which is THE ROOT AND CAUSE of all failure. To say that Krsna did not understand the western mind, and gave the Acharya inspiration to present sadhana which was contraindicated to the target populace is LUDICROUS. More in line with reality is that ANY sadhana can be improperly executed by materially motivated individuals, and a false shadow institution be erected to cheat those looking for it. And the next phase these materialists hope for is that the other neophytes who have similar mental acuity will decide to throw away the original form of instructions from the acharya and speculate new ones into existence. They don't mind a little friendly neophyte competition. They certainly are counting on it, and praying that the Acharya's original plan becomes dust in the wind. Get it? I pray. Hare Krsna.

SB 4.28.48 : Purport : Whenever an äcärya comes, following the superior orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or His representative, he establishes the principles of religion, as enunciated in Bhagavad-gitä. Religion means abiding by the orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Religious principles begin from the time one surrenders to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the äcärya’s duty to spread a bona fide religious system and induce everyone to bow down before the Supreme Lord. One executes the religious principles by rendering devotional service, specifically the nine items like hearing, chanting and remembering. Krishna Book, 2-32 : The Vedic injunction is that no one can have full knowledge without being under the guidance of an acarya. Acaryavan puruso veda: one who has accepted an acarya knows what is what. The Absolute Truth cannot be understood by arguments. One who has attained the perfect brahminical stage naturally becomes renounced; he does not strive for material gain because by spiritual knowledge he has come to the conclusion that in this world there is no insufficiency. Everything is sufficiently provided by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A real brahmana, therefore, does not endeavor for material perfection; rather, he approaches a bona fide spiritual master to accept orders from him. A spiritual master's qualification is that he is brahmanistham, which means that he has given up all other activities and has dedicated his life to working only for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. For the uttama-adhikari, who may accept the role of acharya, mastery of shastra is equivalent to being able to convey the essential goal of reading shastra to any individual who comes in his path as a sincere inquirer, and also to be able to convey in instructional form the sadhana that person might use to reach the goal of realizing the essence of the sastra, Sri Krsna, for himself. Diksa and Siksa. So ultimately, it is the Lord's Yoga Maya who decides exactly what facts that acharya will need to convey along his sojourn, exactly what will be revealed to whom and when, and the acharya relys on the spontenaity of memory governed by supersoul to respond to all situations. SB 3.11.18 Purport Those who have reached the highest perfectional stage of mystic power and can see everything in the past, present and future are called tri-kala-jnas. Similarly, the devotees of the Lord can see everything clearly that is in the revealed scriptures. The devotees of Lord Sri Krsna can very easily understand the science of Krsna, as well as the situation of the material and spiritual creations, without difficulty. Devotees do not have to endeavor for any yoga-siddhi, or perfection in mystic powers. They are competent to understand everything by the grace of the Lord, who is sitting in everyone’s heart. Srila Prabhupada knew sanskrit and probably alot of sastra, as well as their essence, way before his birth in his recent acharya lifetime. And it seems obvious that his previously initiated relationship to Sri Krsna continued to unfold in a fresh and revelatory way since his ratha-yatra worship as a toddler. He was preaching his whole life, and was so surrendered that in his later years, whatever confidential understanding of any single sanskrit word or sloka the Lord wanted to convey through him, consider it was done, perfectly, through divine dictation. Blessed and most fortunate are those who can rest assured in the divine expertise of a mahabhagavat acharya. Jaya Nitai!

Hmmm, I wonder if Srila Prabhupada could wrap his little brain around Sanskrit. LOL. let us not let our puny intellects incite envy for the Mahabhagavat Acharya. Gour Govinda Maharaj, an advanced disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, once went on a mission to prove the Sanskrit scholarship of his Guru's major shastric works in order to defeat detractors in his local area. He eventually met with a older man who was considered to be the highest authority in Sanskrit and English language in the area. I forget which of the books he was commissioned to read and examine, but he reported to Gour Govinda Maharaj in sublime ecstasy that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami had blown his mind. In all his life he had never seen anyone exhibit such mastery at invoking the most relevant of definitions in every case, even using the most esoteric in some cases but always enhancing the meaning of the sloka. In awe he explained that his translations were flawless and masterfully arranged in such a unique way that will never be exceeded. I beg you. Just read the Translations and the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Bhagavad Gita as it is (1972), and the Srimad Bhagavatam 1st and 2nd Cantos at least. The original unchanged books. Reading with faith and appreciation this will place you eternally at the lotus feet of Sri Krsna. This was my Srila Prabhupada's gift to us all. Hare Krsna