Sarva gattah

Your humility Prabhu touches my heart and makes me realize my fanaticism too. You know, it is even more rare to have a human birth than associating with devotees – just to be on this forum associating with devotees of Krishna and other seekers of truth is so, so rare that we just take it for granted. As the saying goes, we do not know or realize what we have got until we loose it. The process of death can come at anytime and frankly it scares the hell out of me. I also apologize for the fanaticism I have posted on this sit.

Actually devotees used to swim there, some still do however most of the Prabhupada disciples I know, me included, stopped swimming there in 1978

Both interesting points Hare Krsna

Harikesha prabhu - "The material world is a marvellous place, because here the Lord has created the grand illusion that we can become God and enjoy the creation independently of Him. Krishna has created this illusion out of love for us, the fallen souls. It is not in our power to create such a facility, which can be likened to a playground created by the father for the sake of his small children. Only Krishna can create such a facility, and He does so just to allow us souls the opportunity to think ourselves God and try to enjoy the material energy. The only problem is that this so-called enjoyment is illusory and cannot remain for long. Everything here is temporary and full of misery. Why has Krishna created a world that is temporary and full of misery? The answer is simple: Because He does not want us to stay here. He wants us to find out that we have made a mistake in coming to the material world and to thus return to our original home, the spiritual world. Therefore He orders the material energy to push the conditioned souls toward frustration, so that they will someday again turn toward the Lord, who is within their hearts as the Supersoul of all beings, and surrender unto Him. The Lord says that anyone who thus surrenders unto Him will quickly return to Him. The Lord also assists the living entities by sending His pure devotees to speak the knowledge of the spiritual world to them to again awaken them to their real position. He also presents the Vedic literature to open their eyes with transcendental knowledge. He is so concerned for the living entities that He periodically descends from the spiritual world Himself in order to display His transcendental pastimes and attract the conditioned souls back to His eternal abode. One may also ask, If I had full knowledge in my spiritual position—for we say that the soul is eternally full of knowledge and bliss—why did I come to the material world, knowing that it is a place of suffering? The answer is again simple. One is full of knowledge in the same way that a small glass is full of water. When the glass is filled with water, we say that it is full. However, no sane person would accept that all the water in the world is in that glass. Only a small portion of the water is in the glass. Since we are quantitatively different from the Lord, we can conclude that our quantity of bliss and knowledge is much smaller than that of the Lord. However, since we are smaller receptacles of knowledge, we can easily be full of knowledge according to our smaller capacity. This does not mean that we possess all knowledge. It means that we possess only a small portion of knowledge—enough to fulfil all our needs in relationship with Krishna. Therefore the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world, just as a lusty person does not consider the results of his actions as he rushes forward to satisfy his lusty desires. Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires" ( I found this very inspiring) Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada Some foolish scholars, sanyasis and gurus also say Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are very autocratic and dictatorial that denies one the right to investigate for themselves ‘the origin of the jiva-soul’. There sometimes arrogant determination on this point is revealed by their attempts to scare you into submission by breaking your spirit and cleverly making you believe non-one can help you understand or guide you except them. To achieve this witty attempt to make you submissive, they constantly chip away at your spirit, moulding you into what they want you to be, until your self-esteem is broken just like a horse is broken in and forced to be submissive and just obey without ‘thinking’. This dangerous ‘cult’ mentality is just a further episode of the juvenile pioneering immaturity of the modern revival of the many Vaishnava societies and not to be taken seriously. On many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are. The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha s’akti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna. We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s’akti (jiva tattva) IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy (tatastha s’akti) , jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serve the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna's Goloka), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. This can be seen from different views, thr baddha-jiva in the material world is a real but inferior representation of the nitya-siddha The nitya baddha appears to move around however, its source is its nitya siddha origins in Vaikuntha that is permanantly there due to the eternal present time factor. It may appear contradictory but it isn;t, the material body does leave the embodied (ethereal vessel) baddha-jiva-soul and the embodied baddha-jiva-soul leaves the material body From the material world point of view the embodied soul leave our variety material bodies On the absolute level we are always in Vaikuntha even if we think or dream we are in the mahat-tattva Depends on thinking of Krishna but believe me, when the body is breaking up so many thoughts go through your mind, I realized that for me I'm very fallen and sinful and even though I realized that when this material body breaks down and leaves the soul, or as you have said, when I leave this broken body, for me, the mundane dream will continue - but I SEE it as another chance to somehow. someway remember Prabhupada and Krishna - if we can do that, then it will appear to us that the material experience or dream really never happened because we have gone back home, back to Godhead

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. This can be seen from different views, thr baddha-jiva in the material world is a real but inferior representation of the nitya-siddha The nitya baddha appears to move around however, its source is its nitya siddha origins in Vaikuntha that is permanantly there due to the eternal present time factor. It may appear contradictory but it isn;t, tha material body does leave the embodied (ethereal vessel) baddha-jiva-soul and the embodied baddha-jiva-soul leaves the material body From the material world point of view we leave our material bodies On the absolute level we are always in Vaikuntha even if we think or dream we are in the mahat-tattva

The material body leaves the embodied soul like the nitya-baddha sub-conscious dream state is projected from ones authentic nitya-siddha svarupa body and comes to the material world TEXT 24 acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam akledyo 'sosya eva ca nityah sarva-gatah sthanur acalo 'yam sanatanah SYNONYMS acchedyah—unbreakable; ayam—this soul; adahyah—cannot be burned; ayam—this soul; akledyah—insoluble; asosyah—cannot be dried; eva—certainly; ca—and; nityah—everlasting; sarva-gatah—all-pervading; sthanuh—unchangeable; acalah—immovable; ayam—this soul; sanatanah—eternally the same. TRANSLATION This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. PURPORT All these qualifications of the atomic soul definitely prove that the individual soul is eternally the atomic particle of the spirit whole, and he remains the same atom eternally, without change. The theory of monism is very difficult to apply in this case, because the individual soul is never expected to become one homogeneously. After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to remain as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead. The word sarva-gatah (all-pervading) is significant because there is no doubt that living entities are all over God's creation. They live on the land, in the water, in the air, within the earth and even within fire. The belief that they are sterilized in fire is not acceptable, because it is clearly stated here that the soul cannot be burned by fire. Therefore, there is no doubt that there are living entities also in the sun planet with suitable bodies to live there. If the sun globe is uninhabited, then the word sarva-gatah--living everywhere--becomes meaningless. TRANSLATION text 25 It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable, immutable, and unchangeable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body. PURPORT As described previously, the magnitude of the soul is so small for our material calculation that he cannot be seen even by the most powerful microscope; therefore, he is invisible. As far as the soul's existence is concerned, no one can establish his existence experimentally beyond the proof of sruti, or Vedic wisdom. We have to accept this truth, because there is no other source of understanding the existence of the soul, although it is a fact by perception. There are many things we have to accept solely on grounds of superior authority. No one can deny the existence of his father, based upon the authority of his mother. There is no other source of understanding the identity of the father except by the authority of the mother. Similarly, there is no other source of understanding the soul except by studying the Vedas. In other words, the soul is inconceivable by human experimental knowledge. The soul is consciousness and conscious--that also is the statement of the Vedas, and we have to accept that. Unlike the bodily changes, there is no change in the soul. As eternally unchangeable, the soul remains atomic in comparison to the infinite Supreme Soul. The Supreme Soul is infinite, and the atomic soul is infinitesimal. Therefore, the infinitesimal soul, being unchangeable, can never become equal to the infinite soul, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This concept is repeated in the Vedas in different ways just to confirm the stability of the conception of the soul. Repetition of something is necessary in order that we understand the matter thoroughly, without error.

The body leaves the soul, vacates due to its decay and ill health So why do we say ‘oh, he or she has left their body?’ What really happens is the embodied soul encaged in an ethereal vessel or body is actually experiencing the biological body breaking down and ceasing to work, in other words. The material body leaves the soul. The soul does not move at all its immovable, that’s how I saw it. On Saturday I had a heart attack and had no heart beat for five minutes Just a realization Hare Krsna.

Some silly so called devotees like the nonsense ENVIOUS 'beggar' ( I do enjoy the challenge, the WORLD is pretty boring without ‘arguing the point’ with beggar)(ALSO TO SCARED TO REVEAL HIS REAL NAME) SAY that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. Here is Srila Prabhupada's response. Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”. Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Some foolish scholars, sanyasis and gurus also say Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are very autocratic and dictatorial that denies one the right to investigate for themselves ‘the origin of the jiva-soul’. There sometimes arrogant determination on this point is revealed by their attempts to scare you into submission by breaking your spirit and cleverly making you believe non-one can help you understand or guide you except them. To achieve this witty attempt to make you submissive, they constantly chip away at your spirit, moulding you into what they want you to be, until your self-esteem is broken just like a horse is broken in and forced to be submissive and just obey without ‘thinking’. This dangerous ‘cult’ mentality is just a further episode of the juvenile pioneering immaturity of the modern revival of the Vaishnava societies and not to be taken seriously. On many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are – this book is doing exactly that. Other than this issue on the ‘origin of the jiva’ however, I do appreciate, respect and are often moved by devotees like Harikesa’s prabhu’s preaching as the introduction to this Book reveals Srila Prabhupada ‘personally’ told me (Gauragopala dasa) once in the Sydney Temple room in February 1973 (while I was cleaning) that the body I now have is not my real body and that my real body is in Vaikuntha “You just have to realize it” he added “It is there right now” he further explained. Being very young I did not fully appreciate what he was saying As previously explained, some devotees once said in Mayapur in 1976 that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed as Prabhupada had previously told his Australian devotees in 1972 however on this occasion he says the opposite and tells the devotees they should try to understand. We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. Here again is Srila Prabhupada's response to those who believe it is too difficult to understand we ALL came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”. Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell! The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha s’akti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna. We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s’akti (jiva tattva) IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy (tatastha s’akti) , jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serve the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. Here is Srila Prabhupada's response. Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”. Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Some foolish scholars, sanyasis and gurus also say Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are very autocratic and dictatorial that denies one the right to investigate for themselves ‘the origin of the jiva-soul’. There sometimes arrogant determination on this point is revealed by their attempts to scare you into submission by breaking your spirit and cleverly making you believe non-one can help you understand or guide you except them. To achieve this witty attempt to make you submissive, they constantly chip away at your spirit, moulding you into what they want you to be, until your self-esteem is broken just like a horse is broken in and forced to be submissive and just obey without ‘thinking’. This dangerous ‘cult’ mentality is just a further episode of the juvenile pioneering immaturity of the modern revival of the Vaishnava societies and not to be taken seriously. On many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are – this book is doing exactly that. Other than this issue on the ‘origin of the jiva’ however, I do appreciate, respect and are often moved by devotees like Harikesa’s prabhu’s preaching as the introduction to this Book reveals Srila Prabhupada ‘personally’ told me (Gauragopala dasa) once in the Sydney Temple room in February 1973 (while I was cleaning) that the body I now have is not my real body and that my real body is in Vaikuntha “You just have to realize it” he added “It is there right now” he further explained. Being very young I did not fully appreciate what he was saying As previously explained, some devotees once said in Mayapur in 1976 that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed as Prabhupada had previously told his Australian devotees in 1972 however on this occasion he says the opposite and tells the devotees they should try to understand. We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. Here again is Srila Prabhupada's response to those who believe it is too difficult to understand we ALL came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”. Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell! The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha s’akti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna. We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s’akti (jiva tattva) IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy (tatastha s’akti) , jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serve the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Introduction by unknown author that first appeared on the World Wide Web of the North European BBT in the mid 1990s One may rightly ask,” If I am originally a pure servant of God, then why did I come to the material world in the first place? If there is no ignorance in the spiritual world, then why did I leave that wonderful place and come here, where I am suffering repeated births and deaths?” This is a good question, and one that Srila Prabhupada has elaborately explained. Every living being, either in the material or spiritual world, has free will. Because we are minute parts of the Supreme, we have minute quantities of His qualities. One of Krishna’s qualities is independent free will. He does whatever He likes, whenever He likes, and it is always perfect. He is never bound by the reactions of His decisions, because He is transcendental to the material nature. Because we do not possess the same quantity of free will as Krishna, we can sometimes do what we like and sometimes not. Further, whenever we act, we have to suffer or enjoy the reactions of that decision. Every living being in the spiritual world loves Krishna. This is the nature of the spiritual world. However, that love is not forced. For example, if I were to hold a gun to your head and say,” Love me,” you would naturally say,” Oh, yes, I love you.” But that would have no meaning. You cannot force anyone to love another person, for love comes from within naturally when the proper conditions arise. Therefore, Krishna does not force the living entities to love Him, for that would not be real love and it would not be satisfying to the Supreme Lord, who knows everything that is going on in the hearts of the living entities. Krishna is satisfied only by pure, natural and spontaneous love, without any traces of self-motivated desire. Therefore Krishna endows each and every living entity with free will. With this free will, one can love Krishna or one cannot love Krishna. The choice is entirely up to the living entity. Those living beings that love Krishna are situated in the spiritual world, whereas those living beings that don’t love Krishna are situated in the material world. Those who don’t love Krishna, or who have become envious of the Lord’s position as the Supreme Enjoyer, cannot remain in the spiritual world for a moment. If it so happens that a living entity becomes envious of the Lord for some reason, then he immediately falls from the spiritual world, for no envy of the Lord exists in the spiritual world. Remember, the choice to love Krishna or not exists in each of us eternally. Envy comes as the opposite of love, for it is created from hatred. Hatred and love are very closely related, and each of us has experience of how we can become immediately envious of others, even if our intelligence has not yet accepted that emotion. Therefore, when the living entity feels enviousness for the Lord, he immediately turns into a competitor of the Lord and desires to enjoy as the Lord enjoys. Such desires cannot remain in the spiritual world, because everyone there is considering themselves as enjoyed by the Lord; they never want to become the enjoyers themselves. Because this desire to become the competitor of the Lord as the enjoyer is spiritual (as all desires in the spiritual world come from the spiritual platform, since all the living entities there are completely spiritual), it must be immediately satisfied. Every desire in the spiritual world is immediately satisfied, because that is the nature of the spiritual world. But since the desire to be the Lord oneself is not possible to satisfy in the spiritual world, as Krishna is the enjoyer and there cannot be any competitor there, one comes to the material world in order to attempt to fulfil that desire. The material world is a marvellous place, because here the Lord has created the grand illusion that we can become God and enjoy the creation independently of Him. Krishna has created this illusion out of love for us, the fallen souls. It is not in our power to create such a facility, which can be likened to a playground created by the father for the sake of his small children. Only Krishna can create such a facility, and He does so just to allow us souls the opportunity to think ourselves God and try to enjoy the material energy. The only problem is that this so-called enjoyment is illusory and cannot remain for long. Everything here is temporary and full of misery. Why has Krishna created a world that is temporary and full of misery? The answer is simple: Because He does not want us to stay here. He wants us to find out that we have made a mistake in coming to the material world and to thus return to our original home, the spiritual world. Therefore He orders the material energy to push the conditioned souls toward frustration, so that they will someday again turn toward the Lord, who is within their hearts as the Supersoul of all beings, and surrender unto Him. The Lord says that anyone who thus surrenders unto Him will quickly return to Him. The Lord also assists the living entities by sending His pure devotees to speak the knowledge of the spiritual world to them to again awaken them to their real position. He also presents the Vedic literature to open their eyes with transcendental knowledge. He is so concerned for the living entities that He periodically descends from the spiritual world Himself in order to display His transcendental pastimes and attract the conditioned souls back to His eternal abode. One may also ask, If I had full knowledge in my spiritual position—for we say that the soul is eternally full of knowledge and bliss—why did I come to the material world, knowing that it is a place of suffering? The answer is again simple. One is full of knowledge in the same way that a small glass is full of water. When the glass is filled with water, we say that it is full. However, no sane person would accept that all the water in the world is in that glass. Only a small portion of the water is in the glass. Since we are quantitatively different from the Lord, we can conclude that our quantity of bliss and knowledge is much smaller than that of the Lord. However, since we are smaller receptacles of knowledge, we can easily be full of knowledge according to our smaller capacity. This does not mean that we possess all knowledge. It means that we possess only a small portion of knowledge—enough to fulfil all our needs in relationship with Krishna. Therefore the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world, just as a lusty person does not consider the results of his actions as he rushes forward to satisfy his lusty desires. Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires. END OF INTRODUCTION BY unknown aurthor prabhu COMMENT – The conclusion by some devotees of this issue is that we should just accept Prabhupada’s Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter he sent to us Australian devotees in 1972, of whom I was one of them, as final and no one should have the ‘audacity’ to disobey Prabhupada and discuss this is issue. There are other letters and lectures where Prabhupada encouraged devotees to ‘try and understand where our origins are from’ Devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic, however, keep in mind that Prabhupada did discuss this issue in letters and lectures especially in Mayapur in 1976 where he stated some devotees haven’t got the mental capacity to understand the ‘origin of the soul’, Prabhupada on that occasion said ‘they don’t want to understand!! The following letter from Srila Prabhupada however, more or less told the devotees to let the issue be, the following letter came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.” Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic Ø "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. Ø There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Ø Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Ø We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Ø Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Ø Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed. Ø So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Ø Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. Ø So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. Ø So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. Ø But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Ø Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease. On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? Ø So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin. Ø Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Ø Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Ø Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Ø Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Ø Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Ø Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Ø Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic. Now it is very important to realize on many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are Those people who narrow mindly see only this one instruction on this topic are not seeing the full picture and are entitled to their opinions on the other hand, Prabhupada also gave other instructions we SHOULD try and understand and at many times said that we should try to comprehend

Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupada of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) but as our dreaming secondary non Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967 This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell! Srila Prabhupada - “Because they (jiva tattva) are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. (Bhäg. 2.5.19, Srila Prabhupada - “Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. (Bhäg. 2.5.19, Srila Prabhupada - “This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity’s eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant.” (Bhäg. 2.5.19, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Similarly, there was no necessity to create this material world for the sufferings of the conditioned souls, but at the same time there are certain living entities, known as nitya-baddha, who are eternally conditioned. We say that they have been conditioned from time immemorial because no one can trace out when the living entity, the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, became rebellious against the supremacy of the Lord. (Which means originally the nitya baddhas were all nitya siddha devotees) (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “It is a fact that there are two classes of men... Without tracing out the beginning of the existence of these two classes, we can take it for granted that some of the living entities revolted against the laws of the Lord. Such entities are called conditioned souls (nitya-baddhas)... Covered by the material body, the spiritual identity (nitya-siddha) is lost, and therefore the word mumuhe is used here, indicating that they have forgotten their own spiritual identity (nitya-siddha).” (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “It is clear that a particular body is given to the living entity for a particular type of activity. This process is going on perpetually, from a time which it is impossible to trace out. (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Vaishava poets say, therefore, anädi karama-phale, which means that these actions and reactions of one’s activity cannot be traced, for they may even continue from the last millennium of Brahmä’s birth to the next millennium.” (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history. Because living entity, by nature, he is not conditioned NOT nitya-baddha). But actually we see that we are conditioned, and there is no possibility to trace out the history. (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Many, many Brahmä’s life. Not only one Brahmä’s. There are so many Brahmäs changed, and we are conditioned. So therefore we are called eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).” (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “So some way or other, originally, we are all Krishna conscious, pure, svaccha. Svacchatvam avikäritvam. Now, being transformed or agitated somehow or other... Anädi-karama-phale, padi’ bhavärëava-jale. We cannot ascertain when this transformation took place... (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay Srila Prabhupada - “How we fell, you can trace out the history, but it is very difficult because anädi karama phale, nobody can ascertain. Just like when a man is diseased, he goes to doctor... There is no necessity to find out the history how he fell diseased. (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay Srila Prabhupada - “There is history (just like the cause of many cancers is unknown). Therefore it is said, anädi karama-phale. Anädi. Anädi means... Ädi means the creation. Creation... before creation, I [become] contaminated [with] this desire, icchä-dveña samutthena.” (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - “And there are innumerable spiritual living entities also. And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are, I mean to say, sent to this material world”. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “The same idea is expressed in Milton’s Paradise Lost. So we, all conditioned souls, we are practically living in a place after Paradise Lost. We should understand this... (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are spirit soul. We should not have accepted this material body. But when we have accepted, how we accepted, there cannot be any tracing of history. It is not possible. Anädi karama. Anädi karama. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Nobody can trace out the history, when we, the conditioned soul, accepted this material body.” (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, ‘...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...’ You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (or nitya baddhas). Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.” (Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968) Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It's (our nitya-siddha body) is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal". Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency. that does not change like this world. These potencies belo This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world ng to the Personality of God-head Vishnu Shiva dasa – “Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata”. Shiva dasa – “The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies. Srila Prabhupada – “It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy”. END OF SHIVA’S UNDERSTANDING Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka. The dreams of the living entity are real but temporary. Correct reality however is imperishable, permanent, without decay and without past or future. Everything is already there and always has beenIndependent self centred dreams of the living entity in Goloka however, are project instantaneously, such ‘dreams’ or ‘thoughts’ are very real and are not illusion because they go on to really exist in the mahat-tattva, which is the material creation governed by Maha Vishnu. Stop thinking in terms of your dreams in your material body, it's not like that -- Dreams in your head while sleeping are illusions.You are conditioned by mundane education to believe 'dreams' are illusion. The dreams of Maha Vishnu below are different and so are ours from our eternal nitya-siddha body. Fall down is real but only from the concept of time and not consciousness. Dreaming from Goloka however, is not like that; the nitya-baddha jiva state is real and described as 10.000th the size of a tip of hair. Due to the fact that the baddha-jiva is consciousness forgetful of its eternal form, many yogis, philosophers and Vedantists, believe the soul or jiva is formless. They think this way because they have no information of the jiva’s permanent home, Goloka-Vrndavana. Even in the mundane heavenly worlds, ones thoughts, dreams and desires are as real as the reality they live in ... In Goloka however, independent thoughts not of pleasing Krishna, instantaneously puts one in Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva material creation that is depicted in a darker circle above MAHAT-TATTVA MEANS MATERIAL WORLDS AS PAINTNG BELOW REVEALS IN THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAND CORNER (TAKING UP 25% OF THE SPIRITUAL SKY OR BRAHMAJYOTI) We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago