sevabhakta

You are forgetting the humble Gaudiya brahmana's who you have never heard of, and most people have not. In collusion with one of the few truly pious local Ksyatrias whose family has heard from descendents of those directly preached to by Mahaprabhu, the actual writings of Vyasadeva and the real vaisnava translations and commentaries all preserved, carefully, and they just don't tell any of the german or british scholars about it, never will, they are guided by supersoul in the heart to only reveal it to the right folks. Everyone else can speculate their lives away about the psuedo translations and replicas of the Bhagavatam written after Vyasadeva. There may only be a handful of such extreme loyalists, but exactly what kind of Vaisnava group do you think Abhay Caran and his father were a part of anyway. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada worked these insiders and kept the family secret close to the vest. Vaisnava's take no pleasure in seeing others squirm in their doubtful speculations, but they also know when to throw the pearls before the swine for maximum effect, so give em their due eh? Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna

The point is that lunch righteousness is just psuedo piety, especially when used to try and guilt or shame others into doing what you think they should. Part of Srila Prabhupada's plan for the Krsna consciousness movement was to transition to a lighter and more harmonious way of living with mother earth and mother cow. He was very clear about the details too, if anyone cares to research what he said on the subject. If that goal is diligently and honestly worked toward, there is no sinful reaction incurred when something that does not have a perfectly sattvik history in terms of cultivation and distribution, is offered to the dieties, DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD. The dedication (devotion) to making the societal adjustments requested by the spiritual master is the essence. The reorganizing of society to reflect the mode of goodness is a secondary result that assists the sadhana process for most. But it is a secondary result of serious Bhaktas fulfilling the instruction of their spiritual master, and THAT IS THE PERFECTION, making the attempt with no attachment to the results. You will never perfectly defend every Jiva from suffering by your own Jainist/Vegan program of mental speculation. By following the program of the acarya, you may or may not find yourself eventually in a supernaturally harmonious vedic society, or even have your own planet to run like that for a while, but only by his mercy, for Krsna's purpose, and don't bet on it. Hare Krsna

I put some more thought into this subject. Cow protection directly implies different standards for the different ages and genders of the cows. There are various degrees and stages of protecting cows. There is perhaps some slight consistent protection of the bodies of 1000 milkers on an assembly line, and then there is loving protection of a mother cow, a pasture, a bull to have a calf with, lovingly milking her, etc. Is abstaining from drinking milk from cows who your neighbor tortures every day cow protection. I say yes. Will it be an effective strategy? If karma dictates yes, you will influence others, and there will be enough of a boycott that the dairyman might change his ways, etc. If karma dictates NO, then you will just go milkless, but guilt free. If there is another humane alternative, you might seek it out OR CREATE IT YOURSELF, and there you go. You got milk. From the transcendental viewpoint, we take milk where we can get it and offer it to Guru and Krsna. We are not yet cow protectors in the fullest sense, but that is our goal, and we make more progress toward it than those who do not have it as their goal, or who have it as their goal but do not understand the vedic method of complete loving cow protection. It is dishonesty to rest on one's spiritual laurels, and take commercial milk if a little effort and research will reveal a more humane alternative, even if a little more expensive. If not, commercial milk will not only do fine for making offerings, if you are honestly in transition to vedic cow protection, but the milk of those cows is being offered to Lord Krsna by sincere devotees, and THAT IS THE HIGHEST PROTECTION FOR THOSE COWS AT THE MOMENT. You are consciously and willingly starting their transcendental link by offering them indirect service to Krsna. This is watering the root. Those cows are now first in line to be liberated by the future combined efforts of devotees and humanitarian karmi groups. That commercial dairy farm could soon after be chosen at random for a new pilot project of the diary industry where they test newer more humane treatment of cows based on public demand and pressure from activist groups. How Krsna arranges their further service and release from their terrible karma may then be mostly out of our direct ability to influence, but the point is we water the root, Krsna takes care of the rest. I know some vaisya devotees who protect cows to a very high degree. I met the cows and they were truly alive, playful, and it was such a singular experience. Their milk was divine. When I decide to offer and drink commercial milk, whose nutritional value is anywhere from dubious to poisonous, I remember, envy, and admire him. Hare Krsna

While present in Maha Maya's realm, each individual Jiva can make spiritual advancement. There is no loss or dimunition of such advancement, although the Jiva remains in Maha Maya's realm. This is because Yoga Maya also functions simultaneously, side by side with the activity of the material gunas. So if "I" am making spiritual advancement by engaging in some preliminary devotional service, and slightly elevating my life which is mostly spent in the gunas, who is the "I" who is the recipient of that change? So to answer Kulapavana's question, our material consciousness does change with our experiences in the material world, and the assault of the material gunas, which cover our true conscious nature as spirit soul, provides the impetus for us to renounce in favor of transcendental devotional engagements, and by those engagements, our true consciousness is at first only gradually revealed. That is the first change of consciousness, that the gunas elevate to goodness enough that we can use that sattva as a springboard to get glimpses of our true spiritual consciousness. But that is not exactly a change of that spiritual consciouness, just a recognition. Next as we live from that real identity more and more, that spiritual consciousness may change while in the material realm or the spiritual realm, change at that point meaning the evolution of our spiritual consciousness is the ever-fresh and eternally changing awareness of who Krnsa is to us as we move through the rasas.

Somethin is a rumblin, so I guess a tumblin sounds about right. All? Maybe. Krsna Kirtana ki Jaya. Hari Bol

Haribol and Namaste! Welcome back. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was the most recent historical figure who went all over the world representing Lord Caitanya in His mission to spread both the chanting of the Holy Name, and the Pancaratriki rituals as recommended by Sri Narada Muni and the Goswami's of Vrndavana. Inspired by his Guru, he created a full and detailed system of Bhakti Sadhana based in Pancaratriki rituals in a way that would engage anyone from any social position in any country. Thus he was considered an Acarya. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada prescribed these rituals, rules, and regulations on Lord Caitanya's behalf. This was due to his unwavering allegience to the instruction of his Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami. Who was just as chaste to his Guru, going back in succession to Mahaprabhu himself. So I have been learning the rituals of purification that he recommended for all his disciples, and those who his disciples would instruct, etc. As I understand it the rituals of purification for beginners are as follows. 1. Ritually chant the maha mantra. On beads, and together with other devotees in Kirtana or congregational chanting. 2. Ritually read the 4 Books written by Srila Prabhupada that he declared would give the entire philosophy and instructions needed to acheive Krsna Prema. Bhagavad Gita As it Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrta, and Nectar of Devotion. 3. At whatever point you gain faith after being convinced by the knowledge you gain from Ritually Hearing and Chanting like this, consider applying further standard Rules and Regulative principles in your lifestyle. 4. Ritually meet with other devotees, and make the 6 kinds of loving exchanges with them, throughout the rituals above in #s (1-3). 5. When properly initiated, learn arcana and ritually worship dieties in your home, or if a brahmacari, perhaps in the temple. That should get you started and keep you happily engaged for a while. Hare Krsna! .

No one has defeated my position based on the Gita. The only one getting emotional is Theist, attacking my character, making assumptions about my devotion, my perspective on cow slaughter, ascribing guilt, and other such things. I actually feel bad enough watching him twist in the wind trying to maintain his beliefs so I will bow out. Hare Krsna

Oh, is what you say above really the only point of this thread? I think not. Let me refer you to the original post where you pasted a question asked to Sivarama Swami " Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?" And within the answer given by Sivarama Swami, YOU put the emphasis on the following statement. "Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat." So while you say the point of the thread was cow protection, you quote Sivarama Swami here making a mistake. A devotee doesn't think they are free from the "reaction for the violence". A devotee is free from sinful reactions according to Lord Krsna as per BG 3.13. I don't care what Yuga the Gita was spoken in, that is sophistry, the Gita is eternal, and quite frankly if there weren't sinful reactions associated with gathering bhoga in Dwarapa Yuga then why would Krsna waste his time telling us how he was going to "release" us from them when we sacrifice it to him??? What philosophy are you here discussing anyway? Sinful reactions come from piously protecting cows and growing nice vegetables and eating them. If it is not offered to Krsna, you are verily sinning. It is illogical to deduce that any type of bhoga procured by a devotee in a reasonable and customary way through honest trade would by its history be so karmically entangled in ignorance that it would override the truth of Lord Krsna's word. This is just lunch righteousness, and is not based on Lord Krsna's own words. Why not advocate cow-protection on its own merits instead of neglecting scripture to force a neurotic guilt trip onto people?

Yes, very nice, and while doing that over time, we should be protecting as many cows as is possible with the facilities Krsna gives us at the time, and it would be nice training for Ksatriya types to go on some nighttime liberation missions, and even nicer if eventually some of us were so purified that we could go around chastising those who harm the cows. Baby steps, Grasshoppah, slow and steady liberates the cow.

It is actually very nice that people take on such humanitarian missions. They keep the balance more toward the mode of goodness on this planet. Scientific advancement in technology is a part of Varnasrama dharma vedic society. However using junk science or the fruits of real science to cheat and tyrannize others was Hiranyakasipu's game, and if the Bioethicist is not on her game, such demon types will take over for good. Much technology should simply be rejected by anyone trying to live simply and think highly because those levels of tech are a result of ugrakarma.

There you go again "talking about my actions". You don't even know me, and this discussion is not about the straw man of what your conditioned mind imagines "my actions" regarding offering bhoga to the Dieties are. This discussion is whether a person is released from the sinful reactions in relation to how their bhoga is obtained, and according to the Bhagavad Gita if the bhoga is offered as sacrifice the person who does so is released from the sinful reactions involved. You have a different theology on the subject than the Bhagavad Gita. Call me a Prabhupada flag waver anytime. I reject your version.

Theist, why do you presume to know the devotion behind another person's offering to their dieties? Why do you insist that the fact that cows were being treated poorly in factory farms means that all the commercial milk offered by Srila Prabhupada and his direct disciples was rendered a meaningless offering? I am astounded.

BG 3.13 Translation. "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." Which part of "RELEASED FROM ALL KINDS OF SINS" don't you understand Theist?

No, that is your concoction. I said what I said and it is the truth. Your straw man deflection trying to paint me as engaging in cow slaughter is petty and trite. What the heck are you on? How can you paint someone quoting the philosophy as using the truth hypocritically to justify something that is a grievous crime? And paint all the glasses of milk offered by thousands of devotees over decades as unbreakable chains to the karmic reaction of cow torture. You have got to get out more. Not everyone is trying to use the philosophy to justify the continuation of evil deeds. I would like to have seen you try your tapdance in front of Srila Prabhupada. He would have told you to go get a cow, protect it and milk it, and come back and offer the milk to the temple for consumption, and in the meantime to keep your trap shut from condemning his other disciples who don't have cows or access to humanely treated cows. I advocate for everyone to use a reasonable and gradual approach with the goal to reduce cow torture and increase cow protection. This all or nothing attitude is extreme, arrogant, and counterproductive.