bhaktajan

If Postulation 'A' is correct: A--'You eat meat because you like to eat bloody flesh and want to use the excuse "God said I can" to defend your indefensible position.' then, B--'It is true . . . that 99.9% of the world's criminals, cheaters, juvinile delinquints, drunken drivers, fools, corrupt politicians, pedophiles, dictators, drug dealers, prostitutes, fallen priests, prison inmates, tax collectors, army chaplins and, undertakers ---are all meat eaters --And we are not suprised, are we?

Overlooked Secrets of Meat-eaters: In an environment that is harsh with hot deserts & arid rocky terrain —raw meats have sustained generations of passionate nations. Long before electric Refrigeration was invented there was the science of eating dried cadavers among the denizens of less desirable real estate. Historically, people around the world have cured meat, in order not to waste valuable food, and to insure against poor harvests or hunting seasons. Although a salt-rich diet is currently implicated in risk for heart disease, in the past food shortage was a greater problem. Salt cod, which was air-dried in cool northern Europe, was a civilization-changing food product, in that a bountiful but perishable food supply could be converted to a form that allowed for wide travel and thus exploration. Salted meat was widely used as a food source on ships during the Age of Sail, as it is non-perishable and easily stored. Eric Newby wrote that salted meats consisted of the majority of shipboard diet even as late as his cruise aboard Moshulu (which lacked any refrigeration) in 1938. Salted meat and fish are commonly eaten as a staple of the diet in North Africa, Southern China and in the Arctic. Prosciutto (Italian word for ham). Traditional prosciutto is cured for over 3 years. Bill Buford describes talking to an old Italian butcher who says: “When I was young, there was one kind of prosciutto. It was made in the winter, by hand, and aged for two years. It was sweet when you smelled it. A profound perfume. Unmistakable. To age a prosciutto is a subtle business. If it’s too warm, the aging process never begins. The meat spoils. If it’s too dry, the meat is ruined. It needs to be damp but cool. The summer is too hot. In the winter—that's when you make salumi. Your prosciutto. Your soppressata. Your sausages.” In English, prosciutto almost always used for an aged, dry-cured, spiced Italian ham that is usually sliced thin and served uncooked; this is called prosciutto crudo 'raw ham' in Italian and distinguished from prosciutto cotto 'cooked ham'. Similar hams are produced in many other countries, such as Jinhua ham in China and country ham in the southern United States. In some cases similar hams are made in imitation of others rather than following a long tradition. Bresaola, made in northern Italy from air-dried beef. Bresaola is air-dried salted beef that has been aged about 2-3 months until it becomes hard and a dark red, almost purple colour. It is made from eye of round and is lean and tender with a sweet, musty smell. It originated in Valtellina, a valley in the Alps of northern Italy's Lombardy region. A strict trimming process is essential to the rich taste. Legs of beef are thoroughly defatted and seasoned with a dry rub of coarse salt and spices such as juniper berries, cinnamon and nutmeg. They are then left to cure for a few days. A drying period follows, of between one and three months depending on the weight of the particular bresaola. Up to 40% of the meat's original weight is lost during aging. A similar process is also applied in Valtellina to smaller pieces of meat. This results in a more strongly flavoured product, Slinzega, which is similar to South African biltong. Traditionally horse meat was used for slinzega, but now other types of meat can be used, such as venison and pork. Originally intended as a way to preserve meats before the advent of refrigeration, these preparations are prepared today for their flavors that are derived from the preservation processes. Similar products: The Bresaola produced in Valtellina is now a Protected geographical indication (PGI) under EU Regulation 2081/92. Since this designation, smoked dried beef made outside Valtellina may carry a generic name such as "viande séchée" or "beef prosciutto". But there are traditional products from several other areas that are similar : Bindenfleisch (Bündnerfleisch) - from across the border in Grisons, Switzerland Brési - from the Jura region of France Carne de sol - from NE Brazil Cecina - from León, now used elsewhere in Spain and Latin America (Cecina de León also has PGI status) Charque dulce - from Brazil Chipped beef - from the United States Deng-deng - from India (should be Dendeng - from Indonesia) Pastirma - from The Middle East, Turkey and the Balkans Pemmican (Pemmikan) - from North America Suho meso - from the Slavic countries Suschenaja govjadina - from Southern Russia Tasajo - from South America =================================== In other word "Raw Flesh" is more economical —and it's going on everywhere —this gross "common-denominator" is the prime culprit in all . . . subtle criminal inspirations . . . Hoping there is an instant Change-of-heart, Bhaktajan

I forgot to mention the TIME factor or element. In short, Time exists in the material world. It does not exist in the spiritual Kngdom of God. When a spirit soul returns to heaven . . . after taking birth-after-birth since time immemorial . . . he/she regains their original spiritual body so as to engage in loving reciprical pastimes with God and his entourage [the material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual Sky --outside the material enclosed universe] . . . when the spirit soul arrives back home he/she has been gone only for a blink of an eye [time does not exist in the same location as eternity] ---this is what is written in the Vedas. Oh, but this is just 1/One millionth of 1 percent of the contents of the Vedic Literatures. But usually a mantra and prayer beads is all that is needed. The Vedas are pre-western history that is now available --whereas, in the past, so many other enterprises and Indu-stries were pursued --instead of searching-out the possiblity that these Vedic Histories existed . . . if only one knew to look.

Hindus do not believe in many Gods --they pay homage to different Demigods --all of whom are related & descended from the same progenitor, Maha-Pita-maha Brahma. The recognised & traditional "Gods of Hinduism" do not equate to competing polytheistic concepts--The recognised & traditional "Gods of Hinduism" are all family members [that includes the celestrial-level self-elected Demons] of the same family tree of Personalities of the Superintendents of universal afffairs. If someone does not recognise the facts as delineated in the Vedas as True --that is their free-will to . . . follow another's proclamation(s). What else is new? Hindus do believe in an assembly of many Gods (all related to each other as imediate and distant cousins) that exist here within this material world. If the common Hindu do not know this fact about the orthodoxy of their own scriptures--that's too bad. What else is new?

Love, = There is no love in the material world there is only give and take (as in a mutual business transaction). Love of God (Krishna-Prema) is an "Absolute" thing-- so we must see out the Absolute Truth (the summom-bonum) from absolute sources --in the interim, we must have faith in what little Absolute Truth we do know . . . and carry on. Walking Together As Friends, = Arjuna was without envy --so he was able to keep company next to God (Krishna) during the worst of times. God as "Paramatma" (one part, of the Hindu Thrinity, is the localised presence of God as the Holy Life-force in the Heart) witnesses all actions and keeps us company at all times --yet material sense-pleasures great & small divert our attention --this is where contemplation is famously related to 'seeing God in all acts'. Sin, = ugra-Karma (undisirable re-actions to our own prior acts). Karma (actions) results in Karma-phalam (The fruits of actions). Detrimental actions cause ugra-Karma. Krishna directly explains in the Gita the different types of Actions and their results. Remember this one: "That which is like poison in the beginning, is like nectar in the end; and that which is like nectar in the beginning, is like poison in the end" --tell that to the teens who neglect their homework; or to obese people. Separation, = This is a highly elevated spiritual topic "Feeling: of seperation" is the actual situation we, as spirits in the material world, are entrapped by the material world [i'll leave this to others to explain]. Forgiveness, = this is the flip side of non-enviousness. The trappings of the material ego is to accumilate concepts of "I & Mine" ergo, "My ownership of all I survey" --all these false attachments entrench our sense of being in the here and now --forgiveness is actually the recognition that WE are not the propriertor of anything in the material universe (except our own indivisible individual soul, ultimately lossing the mind & body at death to be later born anew with new body commensurate with the aculturation of of actions from the previous lifetime). Restoration = (prayascitta) Wel this is indeed the Hindu path known as "Yoga" ("to link-up" ~similar to "religio",to re-link. re-connect). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The first rule for the neophyte is this: "You are not the material body, you are spirit soul" IMO, without any scholarly training everyone can come to know that when Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead and ascended to heaven --that one's indiviual being is "not the material body, you are spirit soul". IMO, the notion that "there is a God from whom we are in his image" --is not an idea that arrises from the intellects of those castaway on a desolate enviroment. Such knowledge must descend from a higher authority to benedict mankind. And God indeed does deliver such knowledge --to the deserving (for all others are not interested) who seek escape from the cycle of birth and death.

Hi everyone, I am a Hare Krishna Chanter since 1979 and I am not aware that anyone conducts rathayatra all year round. What I've heard is that the complaint is that the festival is done on days other than One (1) Singular Day simultaneously in sync with the Puri Temple in Orissa. There is no need for complaint from any one --except if blasphemy is performed, which has not been the issue. [The complainers should just thank our lucky stars --and, if possible, send me some maha-sweets].

Hindustani: how the hell you chaps are trying to say who is the God and who is demigod? Comeout of this fake saga of God and Demigod,else you will be punished severely by your own God one day while living or after death. Umapati_das: I don't understand ISKCON either. They say that Shiva and Devi are less than Krishna, but then go on to say that gods from other religions are Krishna. [iMO, 1/10 of 1% of posters on these forums are not nor have ever been a part of ISKCON, yet. As I am.] ........................................................................ Bhaktajan: Who is God? [here is the definition--other than this definition is the concept of Atheism and its concominant factors]: God, by definition, is that Person who possesses and is the original source of all personal Opulences-in-full par excellence: God, by definition, is that Person who possesses all wealth, strength, beautity, intelligence, fame, and, renunciation. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Bhagavata-purana 3.10.17 [translation & Purport by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami]: "The fifth creation is that of the controlling deities by the interaction of the mode of goodness, of which the mind is the sum total. The sixth creation is the ignorant darkness of the living entity, by which the master acts as a fool." PURPORT The demigods in the higher planets are called devas because they are all devotees of Lord Viñëu. Viñëu-bhaktaù småto daiva äsuras tad-viparyayaù: all the devotees of Lord Viñëu are devas, or demigods, whereas all others are asuras. That is the division of the devas and the asuras. Devas are situated in the mode of goodness of material nature, whereas the asuras are situated in the modes of passion or ignorance. The demigods, or controlling deities, are entrusted with departmental management of all the different functions of the material world. For example, one of our sense organs, the eye, is controlled by light, light is distributed by the sun rays, and their controlling deity is the sun. Similarly, mind is controlled by the moon. All other senses, both for working and for acquiring knowledge, are controlled by the different demigods. The demigods are assistants of the Lord in the management of material affairs. After the creation of the demigods, all entities are covered by the darkness of ignorance. Each and every living being in the material world is conditioned by his mentality of lording it over the resources of material nature. Although a living entity is the master of the material world, he is conditioned by ignorance, by the false impression of being the proprietor of material things. The energy of the Lord called avidyä is the bewildering factor of the conditioned souls. The material nature is called avidyä, or ignorance, but to the devotees of the Lord engaged in pure devotional service, this energy becomes vidyä, or pure knowledge. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gétä. The energy of the Lord transforms from mahämäyä to yogamäyä and appears to pure devotees in her real feature. The material nature therefore appears to function in three phases: as the creative principle of the material world, as ignorance and as knowledge. As disclosed in the previous verse, in the fourth creation the power of knowledge is also created. The conditioned souls are not originally fools, but by the influence of the avidyä function of material nature they are made fools, and thus they are unable to utilize knowledge in the proper channel. By the influence of darkness, the conditioned soul forgets his relationship with the Supreme Lord and is overwhelmed by attachment, hatred, pride, ignorance and false identification, the five kinds of illusion that cause material bondage.

What I was referring to is the Scriptural injuction that ordains the actions of the LEADER: [i had presumed & intended that this would be read & understood by readers of my opening post --it was not a presumption I was hoisting upon the unsuspecting reader to think I was stating something I thought was unique & of my own invention] Bhagavata-purana 4.20.14: "To give protection to the general mass of people who are citizens of the state is the prescribed occupational duty for a king. By acting in that way, the king in his next life shares one sixth of the result of the pious activities of the citizens. But a king or executive head of state who simply collects taxes from the citizens but does not give them proper protection as human beings has the results of his own pious activities taken away by the citizens, and in exchange for his not giving protection he becomes liable to punishment for the impious activities of his subjects." ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: So we should attempt to be PIOUS for the sake of our bretheren --especially our leaders. In this way both the subjects and the king will be happy during this life, and in the next life the king will be able to share one sixth of the pious activities of the citizens. Otherwise, by levying taxes on the sinful citizens, he will have to share the reactions of their sinful activities. This same principle can be applied to parents and spiritual masters as well. If parents simply give birth to children like cats and dogs but cannot save their children from imminent death, they become responsible for the activities of their animalistic children.

Kesierose: There are people in this world, who are pretty much happy through their lives, though they may not have been happy all the time. This category appears to be completely ignored by religionists Patit: It is not that this category is ignored by religionists. Material happiness is actually just less distress. There is no real happiness derived from material nature. When there is less stress we call that happiness. In order to understand this point, we have to be acquire higher taste. When we acquire higher taste, we realize what true happiness is. Therefore we can be situated in true happiness while being in this world. Yes this is your time to be happy. Thinking you are happy and actually being happy are two different things. Ignorance is bliss. The true way to get happy while you are here is to get in touch with your real self. Why should one try to get happiness via temporary sources when the same amount of energy can be spent towards getting something permanent? Its true what you say about distressed people taking up spiritual practices. There are 3 other types of people who take to spiritual life as well. Namely the wise, inquisitive and in need of money. Of the four, you may come in the category of wise. Actually, one who is self realized has no fear. It is not recommended to neglect your duty. It is recommended to do your duty without being attached to the results of your duty. This way, your duty does not become a distraction. Rather, it becomes a type of meditation. Yes no amount of education can conquer maya. The only thing that can conquer maya is the the mercy of guru and the Lord. Every type of varna and ashram is supported by the Vedas. If you wish to be a grhasta, go for it! One only has to perform his duty no matter what ashram he may be in. The point is to always remember god and never forget him. ......................................................... Patit's reply is genus at work! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "There are people in this world, who are pretty much happy through their lives, though they may not have been happy all the time. This category appears to be completely ignored by religionists - for obvious reasons." My reply to Keiserose's above statement: Your statement is so lacking in universal application--religionists seek to convert only the miserable & stupid under-acheviers - for obvious reasons.??? The world's wealth is in the hands of 5% of the population and keiserose is only concerned with spiritually philanthropic aspirants from forsaking "the ways of enjoyments". China, Siberia, Africa Mexico, Central America, Colombia, North Korea & Iran all have TV Soap Operas with the Beautiful People enacting the Keiserose marching Orders under the banner of the "quality of your ONLYlife."

The Lord comes here to reestablish the principles of religion, and the basic principle is the development of an attitude of surrender to Him. This is the Lord’s last instruction in the Bhagavad-gétä (18.66): sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja. “Give up all other processes and just surrender unto Me alone.” Unfortunately, foolish men have misinterpreted this prime teaching and misled the masses of people in diverse ways. People have been urged to open hospitals but not to educate themselves to enter into the spiritual kingdom by devotional service. They have been taught to take interest only in temporary relief work, which can never bring real happiness to the living entity. They start varieties of public and semi-governmental institutions to tackle the devastating power of nature, but they don’t know how to pacify insurmountable nature. Many men are advertised as great scholars of the Bhagavad-gétä, but they overlook the Gétä’s message, by which material nature can be pacified. Powerful nature can be pacified only by the awakening of God consciousness, as clearly pointed out in the Bhagavad-gétä (7.14). The culture of vidyä is summarized in Çrémad-Bhägavatam (1.2.14) in the following words: “Therefore, with one-pointed attention one should constantly hear about, glorify, remember and worship the Personality of Godhead, who is the protector of the devotees.” Unless religion, economic development and sense gratification aim toward the attainment of devotional service to the Lord, they are all simply different forms of nescience. In the the Gita (2.39), the Lord explained two kinds of procedures—namely säìkhya-yoga and karma-yoga, or buddhi-yoga ---both the yogas are interdependent, as religion and philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation. The ultimate goal is Kåñëa, because the philosophers who are also sincerely searching after the Absolute Truth come in the end to Kåñëa consciousness. This is also stated in the Bhagavad-gétä. The whole process is to understand the real position of the self in relation to the Superself. Of these two, the path of Kåñëa consciousness is better because it does not depend on purifying the senses by a philosophical process. Kåñëa consciousness is itself the purifying process, and by the direct method of devotional service it is simultaneously easy and sublime. It is said that one cannot ascertain the ways of religion simply by imperfect experimental knowledge. Actually, the principles of religion can only be laid down by the Lord Himself. One must follow in the footsteps of great authorities. By mental speculation one cannot ascertain what is religion or self-realization. The Vedas, therefore, give us a chance for escape by pointing out the paths of religion, economic comfort, regulated sense gratification and, at last, the means to get out of the miserable condition entirely. The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge and processes of religion—knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. Now, in summarizing Bhagavad-gétä, the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Kåñëa. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him. BG 18.32: That understanding which considers irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion, under the spell of illusion and darkness, and strives always in the wrong direction, O Pärtha, is in the mode of ignorance. PURPORT Intelligence in the mode of ignorance is always working the opposite of the way it should. It accepts religions which are not actually religions and rejects actual religion. Men in ignorance understand a great soul to be a common man and accept a common man as a great soul. They think truth to be untruth and accept untruth as truth. In all activities they simply take the wrong path; therefore their intelligence is in the mode of ignorance. ............................................................................................... There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kåñëa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kåñëa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reactions. The principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, as we have already discussed, may be followed by the follower of any faith. There is no need to turn from Hindu to Mohammedan to Christian or some other faith and thus become a renegade and not follow the principles of religion. The Bhägavatam religion urges following the principles of religion. The principles of religion are not the dogmas or regulative principles of a certain faith. Such regulative principles may be different in terms of the time and place concerned. One has to see whether the aims of religion have been achieved. Sticking to the dogmas and formulas without attaining the real principles is not good. A secular state may be impartial to any particular type of faith, but the state cannot be indifferent to the principles of religion as above-mentioned. But in the age of Kali, the executive heads of state will be indifferent to such religious principles, and therefore under their patronage the opponents of religious principles, such as greed, falsehood, cheating and pilfery, will naturally follow, and so there will be no meaning to propaganda crying to stop corruption in the state. Bhagvata purana 3.12.25: Religion was manifested from the breast of Brahmä, wherein is seated the Supreme Personality of Godhead Näräyaëa, and irreligion appeared from his back, where horrible death takes place for the living entity. ............................................................................................... The next symptom of the age of Kali is that principles of religion, which are all spotlessly white, like the white lotus flower, will be attacked by the uncultured çüdra population of the age. They may be descendants of brähmaëa or kñatriya forefathers, but in the age of Kali, for want of sufficient education and culture of Vedic wisdom, such a çüdra-like population will defy the principles of religion, and persons who are religiously endowed will be terrified by such men. They will declare themselves as adherents of no religious principles, and many “isms” and cults will spring up in Kali-yuga only to kill the spotless bull of religion. The state will be declared to be secular, or without any particular principle of religion, and as a result there will be total indifference to the principles of religion. The citizens will be free to act as they like, without respect for sädhu, çästra and guru. If one is actually Kåñëa conscious, he cannot have any enemies. Since his only engagement is to induce others to surrender to Kåñëa, or God, how can he have enemies? If one advocates the Hindu religion, the Muslim religion, the Christian religion, this religion or that religion, there will be conflicts. History shows that the followers of religious systems without a clear conception of God have fought with one another. There are many instances of this in human history, but systems of religion that do not concentrate upon service to the Supreme are temporary and cannot last for long because they are full of envy. There are many activities directed against such religious systems, and therefore one must give up the idea of “my belief” and “your belief.” Everyone should believe in God and surrender unto Him. That is bhägavata-dharma. Bhägavata-dharma is not a concocted sectarian belief, for it entails research to find how everything is connected with Kåñëa (éçäväsyam idaà sarvam). According to the Vedic injunctions, sarvaà khalv idaà brahma: Brahman, the Supreme, is present in everything. Bhägavata-dharma captures this presence of the Supreme. Bhägavata-dharma does not consider everything in the world to be false. Because everything emanates from the Supreme, nothing can be false; everything has some use in the service of the Supreme. This is the meaning of sarvaà khalv idaà brahma. Everything is Brahman because everything can be used for the service of the Supreme Lord. Nothing is mithyä, false; everything is factual. Bhägavata-dharma is called sarvotkåñöa, the best of all religious systems, because those who follow bhägavata-dharma are not envious of anyone. Pure bhägavatas, pure devotees, invite everyone, without envy, to join the Kåñëa consciousness movement. Mäyä means disharmony between the living entities and the Supreme Lord, and Vaikuëöha means harmony between them. But foolish creatures, although actually under the control of the supreme living entity, defy His existence, and that state is called mäyä. Sometimes they deny that there is such a being as God. They say, “Everything is void.” And sometimes they deny Him in a different way: “There may be a God, but He has no form.” Both these conceptions arise from the rebellious condition of the living entity. As long as this rebellious condition prevails, the material world will continue in disharmony. Harmony or disharmony is realized because of the law and order of a particular place. Religion is the law and order of the Supreme Lord. In the Çrémad Bhagavad-gétä we find that religion means devotional service, or Kåñëa consciousness. Kåñëa says, “Give up all other religious principles and simply become a soul surrendered unto Me.” This is religion. When one is fully conscious that Kåñëa is the supreme enjoyer and Supreme Lord and one acts accordingly, that is real religion. Anything which goes against this principle is not religion. Kåñëa therefore says: “Just give up all other religious principles.” In the spiritual world this religious principle of Kåñëa consciousness is maintained in harmony, and therefore that world is called Vaikuëöha. If the same principles can be adopted here, wholly or partially, then it is also Vaikuëöha. So it is with any society, such as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness: If the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, putting faith in Kåñëa as the center, live in harmony according to the order and principles of Bhagavad-gétä, then they are living in Vaikuëöha, not in this material world. The above was learnt exclusively from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and his beloved devote students and his grand-students. Bhaktajan

As advised in Chapter Thirteen of the Bhagavad-gétä (13.8–12), one should culture knowledge in the following way: (1) One should become a perfect gentleman and learn to give proper respect to others. (2) One should not pose himself as a religionist simply for name and fame. (3) One should not become a source of anxiety to others by the actions of his body, by the thoughts of his mind, or by his words. (4) One should learn forbearance even in the face of provocation from others. (5) One should learn to avoid duplicity in his dealings with others. (6) One should search out a bona fide spiritual master who can lead him gradually to the stage of spiritual realization, and one must submit himself to such a spiritual master, render him service and ask relevant questions. (7) In order to approach the platform of self-realization, one must follow the regulative principles enjoined in the revealed scriptures. (8) One must be fixed in the tenets of the revealed scriptures. (9) One should completely refrain from practices which are detrimental to the interest of self-realization. (10) One should not accept more than he requires for the maintenance of the body. (11) One should not falsely identify himself with the gross material body, nor should one consider those who are related to his body to be his own. (12) One should always remember that as long as he has a material body he must face the miseries of repeated birth, old age, disease and death. There is no use in making plans to get rid of these miseries of the material body. The best course is to find out the means by which one may regain his spiritual identity. (13) One should not be attached to more than the necessities of life required for spiritual advancement. (14) One should not be more attached to wife, children and home than the revealed scriptures ordain. (15) One should not be happy or distressed over desirables and undesirables, knowing that such feelings are just created by the mind. (16) One should become an unalloyed devotee of the Personality of Godhead, Çré Kåñëa, and serve Him with rapt attention. (17) One should develop a liking for residence in a secluded place with a calm and quiet atmosphere favorable for spiritual culture, and one should avoid congested places where nondevotees congregate. (18) One should become a scientist or philosopher and conduct research into spiritual knowledge, recognizing that spiritual knowledge is permanent whereas material knowledge ends with the death of the body. These eighteen items combine to form a gradual process by which real knowledge can be developed. Except for these, all other methods are considered to be in the category of nescience. In the modern society, even a boy thinks himself self-sufficient and pays no respect to elderly men. Due to the wrong type of education being imparted in our universities, boys all over the world are giving their elders headaches. Thus the Vedas very strongly warns that the culture of nescience is different from that of knowledge. The universities are, so to speak, centers of nescience only; consequently scientists are busy discovering lethal weapons to wipe out the existence of other countries. University students today are not given instructions in the regulative principles of brahmacarya (celibate student life), nor do they have any faith in any scriptural injunctions. Religious principles are taught for the sake of name and fame only and not for the sake of practical action. Thus there is animosity not only in social and political fields but in the field of religion as well. Thanks to the culture of nescience, befooled men have created their own nations within these planets in order to grasp sense enjoyment more effectively for these few years. Such foolish people draw up various plans to render national demarcations perfectly, a task that is totally impossible. Yet for this purpose each and every nation has become a source of anxiety for others. More than fifty percent of a nation’s energy is devoted to defense measures and thus spoiled. No one cares for the cultivation of real knowledge, yet people are falsely proud of being advanced in both material and spiritual knowledge. The instructions of vidyä (knowledge) must be acquired from a dhéra. A dhéra is one who is not disturbed by material illusion. No one can be undisturbed unless he is perfectly spiritually realized, at which time one neither hankers nor laments for anything. A dhéra realizes that the material body and mind he has acquired by chance through material association are but foreign elements; therefore he simply makes the best use of a bad bargain. The living entity has actual functions in the living, spiritual world, but this material world is dead. As long as the living spiritual sparks manipulate the dead lumps of matter, the dead world appears to be a living world. The dhéras have come to know all these facts by hearing them from superior authorities and have realized this knowledge by following the regulative principles. The transcendental message and regulative principles come down from the spiritual master to the disciple. Such knowledge does not come in the hazardous way of nescient education. One can become a dhéra only by submissively hearing from a bona fide spiritual master. Arjuna, for example, became a dhéra by submissively hearing from Lord Kåñëa, the Personality of Godhead Himself. Thus the perfect disciple must be like Arjuna, and the spiritual master must be as good as the Lord Himself. This is the process of learning vidyä (knowledge) from the dhéra (the undisturbed).

“Religion Defined” Or “Are you not envious of anyone?” It is written in the Ancient scripture of India: “Only one who can learn the process of Ignorance, foolishness & Stupidity and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.” ........................................................................................... Everyone has been trying to attain a permanent life wanting to conquer cruel death by his material acquisitions and the strength of his nescience, to make one-sided attempts to win the struggle for existence. Everyone is struggling hard for existence, but the laws of material nature are so hard and fast that they do not allow anyone to surpass them. The process by which one goes back to Godhead is a different branch of knowledge, from revealed Vedic scriptures. To attain a blissful life after leaving this material body, one must study transcendental knowledge. The Lord has delivered to remind the forgetful human being that his home is not here in this material world. The living being is a spiritual entity, and he can be happy only by returning to his spiritual home. Godhead sends His bona fide servants and sometimes the Lord comes Himself to do this work. He therefore appears by His own will whenever there is a predominance of irreligiosity and a disappearance of true religion. Principles of religion are laid down in the Vedas, and any discrepancy in the matter of properly executing the rules of the Vedas makes one irreligious. In the Bhägavatam it is stated that such principles are the laws of the Lord. Only the Lord can manufacture a system of religion. The Vedas are also accepted as originally spoken by the Lord Himself to Brahmä, from within his heart. Therefore, the principles of dharma, or religion, are the direct orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (dharmaà tu säkñäd bhagavat-praëétam [sB 6.3.19]). These principles are clearly indicated throughout the Bhagavad-gétä. The purpose of the Vedas is to establish such principles under the order of the Supreme Lord, and the Lord directly orders, at the end of the Gétä, that the highest principle of religion is to surrender unto Him only, and nothing more. The Vedic principles push one towards complete surrender unto Him; and whenever such principles are disturbed by the demoniac, the Lord appears. Therefore each and every avatära, or incarnation of the Lord, has a particular mission, and they are all described in the revealed scriptures. No one should be accepted as an avatära unless he is referred to by scriptures. It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can manifest Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear. In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances. But the mission is the same—to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. God is more sorry than we ourselves to see the sufferings we are constantly undergoing in this material condition. The miseries of this material world serve to indirectly remind us of our incompatibility with dead matter. Intelligent living entities generally take note of these reminders and engage themselves in the culture of vidyä, or transcendental knowledge. And a human who does not take advantage of this is called a narädhama. Foolish human beings who are grossly absorbed in the culture of avidyä, nescience, do not mind this cruel process. The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now materially manifested, being covered by the material body and mind. The activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of the activities of the original, spiritual senses. Real sense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our pure spiritual form, free from all material contamination, real enjoyment of the senses is possible. Aggravation of the material disease is no sign of knowledge, but a sign of avidyä, ignorance. The modern trend of material civilization is to increase the temperature of the feverish material condition. Human activities diseased by a tendency toward sense gratification have been regulated in the Vedas under the principles of salvation. This system employs religion, economic development, sense gratification and salvation, but at the present moment people have no interest in religion or salvation. They have only one aim in life—sense gratification—and in order to achieve this end they make plans for economic development. Misguided men think that religion should be maintained because it contributes to economic development, which is required for sense gratification. Thus in order to guarantee further sense gratification after death, in heaven, there is some system of religious observance. But this is not the purpose of religion. The path of religion is actually meant for self-realization, and economic development is required just to maintain the body in a sound, healthy condition. A man should lead a healthy life with a sound mind just to realize vidyä, true knowledge, which is the aim of human life. This life is not meant for working like an ass or for culturing avidyä for sense gratification. The path of vidyä is most perfectly presented in Çrémad-Bhägavatam, which directs a human being to utilize his life to inquire into the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is realized step by step as Brahman, Paramätmä and finally Bhagavän, the Personality of Godhead. The Absolute Truth is realized by the broadminded man who has attained knowledge and detachment by following the eighteen principles of the Bhagavad-gétä.

ATTENTION ISKCON Distractors [and also old world Hindu Ashrams organizations and gurukula life Distractors]: POST #4: I'm wondering if it's another Sri Govinda who took sannyas because the Sri Govinda . . . never seemed like the type of devotee who would ever do that. This ATTESTS to the forgotten (or very seldom remarked upon) common opinion of the first generation of ISKCON Hare Krishna Members: They all knew that 'time-was-of-the-essence' --that their stay in ASHRAM-LIFE was to be short lived and thus the benefits had to achieved and then in future we would move on . . . So, it is a sincere sentiment [Post #4] to expect less than full-all-out-staunch-determination to be the result, even after 'being-Trained-Up' -- So, the sentiment: "never seemed like . . . devotee who would ever do that. . . ." may appear to be axio-moronic [this initially had been the ideal aim] --when actually it is indeed the exception to the commonplace devotees game plan. So brainwashing is not the program of ISKCON nor will it ever be.

Hindustani wrote to bhaktajan [Post 120]: That is why I see huge difference between you and jnd type Iskconites.Gyan never comes from attending classes it comes from within Mr.C.P. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: bhaktajan replies: in regards to your obviously sarcastic end statement in bold: Are you saying that gyan (intellectual knowledge & research) comes to YOU from within and not from study and lessons from an instructor? Can you provide ME the benefit of your association HERE and NOW . . . as I ask you to: Please provide the assembly of vaishnavas [or just direct your erudition solely at me] the answers to these questions: {Note: Post 14-Keiserose & 15-Ganeshprasad --failed to reveal any NECTAR --yet continued to mystify . . . } Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics: jiva, parkriti, karma, isvara, kala (time), the differences between the yogic schools of thought, basic sitting silent meditation, dharma, moksha, sat-sanga, good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/ sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness? Please remember to provide your own hard earned Insights & especially the verbatim of your Dear Bhagavan's melodious words.

Hindustani, ARE YOU READY? HERE IT COMES NEWBEE: 1st: "You are not the material body--you are spirit SOUL" 2nd: "Always Remove your shoe at the mandir" Homework assignment [finally exam scores will be issued in your next life]: Choose a Mandir of your choosing [i prefer ISKCON Temples best] --and wash the pots there after the feasts. Start slowly, follow the lead of the other washers, then advance to biggedr feasts each time. Now you are own your own recognisance --aishman bhava!

Theist for giving me the attention I obviously crave so desperately, Thanks. 1] [erzats]: If you agree with this --I AGREE WITH IT: "I think Srila Prabhupada's definition does not differ from his spiritual masters!!! And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is the one who wrote Vaisnavism Real and Apparent." 2] You wrote: "It's clear that the apparent version is the one favored on this forum." Again I respond: Why do you not "Re-state it explicitly?" --[yes, I know the what it says in the 'Art of War', "the general must be inscrutable" --so . . . if you don't say so . . . I'll just have to understand via heavy investigation . . . ] <I'll be leaving a message at 1-1-2 soon.>

I too, by reading what you read about what he wrote about what he said. goosebump-shakti.

He Hindustani, You probably outside the loop of confidentiality of "Hare Krishna vaisnava" training dogma: The First thing to teach a newbee [other than removing shoes at the mandir] is: "You are not the material body--you are spirit SOUL" I hope that will convince you that every member in ISKCON is awaiting the chance to tell you the rest of the story . . . YALL come back soon, Hindustani!

theist & Kulapavana [i'd like to grab both of you two by the ear lobe and make yous write on the Black-board] --the problem is lack of academic protocol. I was interested in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's definition ... but neither of you two would re-iterate what you say you posted as his definition. Where is yours Theist? [i looked and then got tired of searching] Where is yours Kulapavana? [your Post #107 --"Abandoning his servitorship to the lotus feet of Lord Hari" is the anti-thesis of Vaishnava] It is almost like you are arguing --only to find out later that y'all forgot to DEFINE what the actually debate was about. Oye Vey talk about non-sequetors . . . off-topic yet again.

US President swats dead a fly and and says "I got the sucker". This is an opportunity to chastise Politicians --and instruct them to observe Ekadasi fast. Please consider advising your local leader of the Populace to observe Ekadasi fasts. I doubt Roosevelt or Linden Johnson or Saddam Hussien did. Or should we hide that from them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyfWgOhkaLw "Whatever great men do common men follow . . . " --Bhagavad-gita

Dasosmi, Welcome to wild-west of Vedantic gestations where logic is presented with that murphy's-law golden touch. You can practice your debate &/or personability-seduction skills here. The only draw back [other then fraterising with the Mayavad-esque contingency] is the temptation to go off-topic, which happens all the time --like herein . . . Bhaktajan

Raghu Posted [Post #56]: Neo-Advaitins are taught that acceptance of any hierarchy among the devas is equal to "hating other gods." . . . it is little wonder that ignorant Hare Krishna fundamentalists show up. 1] Hare Krishnas are 'ultra-orthodox' Hindus. 2] There is a hierarchy among the devas --that Family-Tree" is deliniated in the Bhagavatam --this insight provides a Vedantist with a foundation to offer respects and veneration to the paramapara descendants of Lord Brahma and thus, the Raghu & Soma vamsas. Raghu, Maybe I had lost the context of your statement, but Hare Krishna fundamentalists don't exist except in the form of the 'Reform-movements' and, in fully surrendered full-time ashram devotees.

Of Course Lord Shiva spoke such things --but "that is for me to know and for the **upstart posters to find-out" --and then grace me with their mercy via revealing the mysteries to me. I am not greedy nor jealous. I would give my quota of prasadam to them even before being asked for it! **Either you are a true Afficinado (of Shiva) and thus a reliable reference or you're just an iconoclast upstart who's propagating controvercy because you are addicted to chaos.

Quote: sant wrote [post 36]: Certainly not no one has said such a thing here.It has been clearly mentioned in bhaktjans posts that one shouldnt insult lord shiva. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I am bewildered at what is being discussed inlieu of so learned Shivite who should be so kind as to tell us of revelations the Lord Shiva has revealed --especially those Vedantic truths that I have not yet learned . . . so Bhaktajan asks: "Am I, Bhaktajan, being faulted for requesting responses to these Questions?": [from Post #13] Please provide the assembly of vaishnavas [or just direct your erudition solely at me] the answers to these questions: {Note: Post 14-Keiserose & 15-Ganeshprasad --failed to reveal any NECTAR --yet continued to mystify . . . } Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics: jiva, parkriti, karma, isvara, kala (time), the differences between the yogic schools of thought, basic sitting silent meditation, dharma, moksha, sat-sanga, good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/ sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness? Please remember not to quote anyone except your Dear Bhagavan's melodious words. {...btw, This last statement is my sly reference to the neccesity to quote directly from sastra } PS: Check my earlier posting: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1145175&postcount=6 My intent is to show that quoting Lords Shiva's scriptural injunctions will ITSELF, reconcile so-called differences between the Vaishnavas' & Shivites' affection(s) --I cannot see how this could possibly be mis-construed as an offensive request. If a Shivite asked of me the same questions--I would gladly search out and provide the exact 'chapter & verse' in abundance --until . . . he asked me to take a break for lunch.

"standard advaitist scripture stating that the goal is to become god" ---? Yes, we know that this is indeed the case --Why post it? For Doubting Thomas'? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Nirvana & Brahman realisation are far from: "the goal is to become god"? Nirvana & Brahman realisation are far from athiestic & meglomaniac tendencies to proclaim oneself as the standard bearer of the Truth?