nikkibrahmbhatt

one last thing - you talk of islam - not that i have anything against them - but they are growing not primarily because people voluntarily join islam out of the blue - they are growing because our Hindus and people of other diff faith are marring into muslim families - and you have to respect the muslims for keeping their staunch belief - so that the person of the other faith mainly converts into islam - and it does not happen the other way around. and SOME muslims also have other propagenda that they're involved in which i'd rather not get into right now. You cannot compare that to BAPS. forget about other religions - BAPS is a Hindu panth- a bhakti maarg- compare it to other Hindu panths.

ok .. U havn't answered my question but ill ans ures first 1. the vadtal vachanamrut as you quoted says "And schould know that I have installed Dharm-kool-the descendants of Dharmadev continuing with this tradition." but where does he clearly say that santos should get diksha ONLY from the acharya? though it does say both in the shikshapatri and the satsangi jivan granth that one of the acharyas duty is to over look that things run smoothly within the sant mandal and the common devotees mandal - but it seems that the acharyas of this day and age have failed to do their duties. 2. the Shikshapatri says - those that do not folllow the shikshapatri (by word thought and deed) should be considered excommunicated - to me what that implies is that if the acharya does not follow his niyam dharma the he should then he shouldn't be considered an acharya - eg. in order to be called a medical doctor - the person has to have up- to -date knowlegde about curing people - and most importantly he has to put that knowledge in to practice thats the only time he becomes eligible to be a doctor. a doctor has to have qualities of a doctor to be called a doctor-0 same applys to the acharya - HE HAS TO BE BORN IN THE DHARMA KUL BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY HE HAS TO PRACTICE HIS NIYAMS THOROUGHLY IN ORDER TO BE GIVEN THAT PADVI- ( and this is primarily my own interpretation) - so i think Nishkulanand Swami was obviously absolutely correct - only that now many of the past acharyas and the present ones are not fit to have obtained their padvi - so as far as im considered there is no acharya!..... so what do we do now? leave satsang ? and our whole goal is to attain moksh and nowhere in the vachanamrut does it say that acharya gives moksha- moksha is only attained by pragat. and the acharyas right now don't have the qualities to substantiate that they are pragat. this will be my last post - cos i gatta go do thaal and then study - the rest i will discuss tommorrow JaiSwaminarayan

Oh - i can keep up with the posts ! .... you tell me when you Asked Maharaj - what did he say ?

dude your just scared that I AM CORRECT- AND IF YOU ASK MAHARAJA HE WILL TELL YOU. IF YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE ARE WRONG THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE - BUT I THINK YOU DOUBT YOURSELF THAT BAPS IS IN THE CORRECT.if you really think WE BAPS are on the wrong then DO IT! otherwise quit arguing.

the question about the aarti - i don't know as yet but li do the aarti in that way because it is my gurus aagnaa!

this you are talking of officially - but what of the acharyas that are on the gadi and do not have the characters matching to deserve that padvi ..... what if it keeps happening - and you don't get a right match for aloooooong time coming ? then what d u do ? leave satsang ?

you know this fact better than i do - and if you dont agree - then there is no point arguing. what i would like to say is that - logically WE THE BAPS are in the absolute right - and there is NOTHING wrong with the way we worship! - and its not for show - we are all here for only one purpose - MOKSHA .... and if you have the same purpose - I DARE YOU - go infront of Harikrshna Maharaj in your mandir - and do a stuti with a true heart and imense sense of need- asking if BAPS is in the right or ask him who can you truely get moksha from - and HE WILL GIVE YOU THE ANSWER then there won't be a doubt in your mind will there ?- go do it!

So what do we do when the Acharyas are considered ex-communicated ? - what do we do when we dont have a true acharya? what do we do ? stop building mandirs ? stop installing murtis ? because we dont have a true acharya !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and again in the shikshapatri He says - those (which also includes acharyas) that do not follow the injunctions written here are considered ex-communicated - and in the prarthna Nirvikalp uttam atti - it says - "Vimukh jan ke vadan se katha suni nei jaat". So if the Acharyas don't follow the shikshapatri - even if they are not officially excommunicated - they are considered ex-communicated - and if you listen to katha from them - knowing their character- then logically that implies that you are at fault aswell!- this is just a logical reasoning. JaiSwaminarayan :>

the same vachanamrut also says that ".. you should not imitate my physical behaviour. Instead all ( meaning also the Acharyas) of you should behave according to my words in the form of respective injunctions which i have prescribed for those in my Sampraday( which again also includes the acharyas)

Our Goal as Swaminarayans is to have dharma gnaan vairagya and bhakti and attain Akshardham - ekantikpanu sidh karvu ane ante Akshardham pamvu- this can only be done thru Pragat Bhagwaan -there is no other way even if man perserveres for 100,000yrs- i'm not saying this Maharaj has said this himself in Vachanamrut loya 7, Madhya 21, Antya 2, Antya7. by Pragat Bhagwaan he means Purna Purshottam Swaminarayan Bhagwaan - Sarva Avtaar na Avtaari- Sarva Kaaran na Kaaran- Above Prakruti Purush and Also Virat Purush ( from whom all the avtars are born - including shri krishna bhagwaan) ( jetalpur 5). But the only thing is Maharaj left earth along time ago - and so how can we then get moksh - if we do get moksha without pragat bhagwaan - then what Maharaj said would prove to be wrong - but this obviously cannot be the case -so it is only through Pragat that we can get moksha ( which could be a murti or a prasadi item - but they cannot give updesh and they do not say anything even if you drink infront of them)( it can't be through the Acharyas either - cos they are in the same pit as we are in - so how can they remove us ? and besides Acharyas have never been mentioned in terms of leading people to liberation in the scriptures) - therefore it is only Pramukh Swami Maharaj- a true sant - a true Guru- ekantik sant in whom maharaj lives in every pore - thru whom we attain moksha -and maharaj says in antya 35- that -eva sant ma Bhagwaan akhand virajman chhe - ane eva sant ne sev vu e Bhagwaan ne sevya barabar chhe - there are other refs that u shud read in order to understand this point - pratham 27, 37, 57, 68, sarangpur 10, antya 26,27,35 madhya 28 ( Read it - nowhere does it say that you can get moksh from an acharya- BUT IT CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED BY A TRUE SANT)- He is Brahma - we cannot medidtate on the knower of Brahma - which is jiva or ishwar ( this is according to the shikshapatri)- but nowhere does it say that we cannot medidtate on Brahma - that is Akhand Dharak of Parabrahma Purna Purshottam Swaminarayan. therefore the conclusion is that BAPS is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in its ways - the vadtal panth would have been good if everything was in accordance to Maharajs aagnaa - TRUE FACT IS that IT IS NOT IN MOST CASES!. You yourself have admitted that you will go to Akshardham -b/c of your Guru - WHO IS A TRUE SANT! - NOT DUE TO THE ACHARYAS.and thats exactly what i'm trying to say- your Guru is not Pramukh Swami Maharaj - Fair enuff - whateva makes you happy- but the point is AKSHARDHAM IS NOT JUST EASY PEASY ATTAINMENT - that you just get it by being under authority of Acharya regardless of what ure acharyas and what ure character is like- you NEED a true Sant who is ekantik in order to become ekantik- b/c thats ure gauranteed ticket to Akshardham. only one who abides by the niyams of a sadhu ( by word deed and thought)can be called a sadhu - and the same applys to an acharya! This is the explanation that i can give to the best of my knowledge so far. This is not about anyone person or sampraday - this is about moksha- attaing Akshardham - and if you want moksha then you will realise the TRUTH - that Sacha Sant thij Moksha thay chhe - bijo koi saadhan nathi. Regardless of what you think I feel i am EXTREMELY blessed to be born into the BAPS sanstha - If you don't feel the same way thats ure problem.- and MAHARAJ HAS GIVEN ME HIS BLESSINGS BY GIVING ME THE MOST PURE AND PIOUS GURU - AND THE PUREST UPASNAA -i will do my readings - and I WILL REMAIN A BAPS UPAASAK - COS UNLIKE YOU (WHO HAVE THE ACHARYA AS A GURU- WHO MIGHT NOT BE BRAHMAROOP(- u admitted to this yourself) I HAVE PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ (who i can vouch for with my soul that he is Akshar-roop - ekantik sant)- AND FOR ME HIS WORDS ARE ENOUGH PROOF!!! - AND HE WILL TAKE ME TO AKSHARDHAM! AND SAME GOES FOR ALL TRUE BAPS FOLLOWERS! And i don't have anything against the Vadtal Sanstha - only that they keep accusing us of being in the wrong when they themselves have so many things going wrong on the basic level . It seems to me as if we ( BAPS) pose as a threat to the Vadtal sanstha - cos If we were a small sanstha ( that is inconspicuos- like some other sects within the Swaminarayan samuday) YOU would ave just forgotten about the fact that there is A sanstha that was brought up by sant that was excommunicated by vadtal. therefore i pray that maharaj shows you light and gives you the buddhi and bal to follow the RIGHT agnaa and upasnaa. - U seem to be an enthusiast of Swaminarayan - so i believe Maharaj will show you the right path- if not in this birth may be in another. SWAMISHREEJI NU E GNAAN SIHN GARJA NA SAMA - SURA HOY TO SUNN JO SAAN - KACHA POCHA NE NATHI E KAAM NU! Jaiswaminarayan

so what ure saying is that if the Acharyas don't follow the shikshapatri they are not fit to be excommunicated but everyone else is - now ure the one whose contradicting ureself- where as Pramukh Swami and ALL his santos live by the Shikshapatri - and THATS WHY HE IS FIT TO GIVE US MOKSHA - even Nishkulanand Swami talks of what kind of Guru is a fit ro be a Guru in the Chosat padi - one who has kaam - will make you into a kaami one who has krodh will make you into a krodhi. THEREFORE THAT QUALIFIES PUJYA PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ AS A TRUE GURU! B/C HE HAS NONE OF THOSE QUALITIES - HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN TAKE US TO AKSHARDHAM. cos to go to Akshardham you HAVE TO BE Brahmaswaroop - WHICH IS A QUALITY THAT CANNOT BE GIVEN BY AN ACHARYA - WHO CAN NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE MERE NIYAMS GIVEN TO HIM AS AN ACHARYA!!!! There are pious Santos in Vadtal - but my point was that the ones that were not - WERE STILL KEPT IN THE SANSTHA FOR OVER 8YRS - UNTIL THEY DID WRONG THAT WAS FOUND OUT BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC. THEY WAITED UNTIL THE SANTOS COULD TARNISH THE WHOLE PANTH. WELL THAT SAYS ALOT ABOUT THE SANSTHA. Oh and just to let you know if what the sokhda mandir is claiming IS TRUE - about Pramukh Swami beating their head etc - then Pramukh Swami would also have been excommunicated from the Sanstha - Just as the Acharya who excommunicated Shastriji Maharaj was excommunicated himself later! besides - u can see for ureself - compare papaji to Pramukh Swami Maharaj - their is a CLEAR difference in their Aachaar Vichaar! and u said it ureself - Pramukh Swami is a good person - and in my understanding good people donot beat other people up! just saying by common sense. when you say Pramukh Swami Maharaj does not follow Maharajs annuvrutti - what makes you say that - does he drink ? is he an alchemist ? as far as respecting the acharya - you know better than i do - that He does respect the acharya- Infact So far He is doing better than the acharyas who have court cases unfolded on them by VADTAL Followers- because they have trust funds used for their personal reasons. In the shikshapatri it is stated that the acharya should give diksha to santos- but where is it written that santos should only take diksha from acharyas. where is it written that a Sant cannot give diksha to another sant? if Maharaj had given an aganaa to santos that "if you want to be a sant - make sure u only get initiated by the acharya"- then our sanstha would be disregarding Maharajs orders - but that is obviously not the case. Tho it is wrtten that a sadhu should not have any possessions or commit adultery in any form or situation.IN the satsangijivan granth it says that if a sadhu keeps even a codi as his possession he will suffer the sin of killing 1000 cows everyday- and if a common person listens to that sadhus katha - he/she would also be considered sinner - the sin is so sever that they would have to do chandrayan vrat to get out of it. There have been sadhus (NOT ALL- BUT MANY) in the vadtal panth who have broken all their basic niyams - I live in North America and when ever theres somthing that goes wrong in vadtal - which comes out in public people ask me - is this what you sampraday is all about?- And this same thing does not and will not happen in our panth because Maharaj is pragat in Pramukh Swami Maharaj. Unlike the Acharyas - Pramukh Swami Maharaj vartman padave chhe! And one of the last shloks of Maharaj says that who ever does not follow the Shikshapatri is considered excommunicated- this applys to all( including the acharyas) not just the common people or the sadhus- therefore you should go tell your acharyas that they are not following the shikshapatri of Maharaj WHICH THEY SHOULD - B/C THEIR BEHAVIOUR IS AFFECTING EVERYONE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY. I honestly think you guys should do somthing about that - because this does not just give a bad impression of the Vadtal sanstha - but it brings a bad impression upon the whole Swaminarayan Samuday. You said that it is not the Vedic way to have God and His choiciest devotees together - then why do we have Radha and Krishna , Laxmi and Narayan? - well ill tell you -the whole point is that you have to become like radha to be the best devotee of Krishna. - you have to be Aksharoop in order to serve Purshottam. and thats why WE HAVE AKSHAR AND PURSHOTTAM TOGETHER IN THE MADHYA KHAND. JUST COS YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY CANNOT BE RE-EDITTED BY CUTTING PARTS OF IT- THE HARILILAMRUT HAD 16 KALASHS ORIGINALLY - WHY DID THEY CUT OUT THE LAST ONES ? AND SINCE YOU BELONG TO THE VADTAL SANSTHA - WHY DON'T YOU GO TO THE MANDIRS AND TRY TO FIND OUT URESELF COS THERE ARE MORE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE STILL NOT PUBLISHED!- IT WILL BE AN EYE OPENER - THERE IS ONE SCRIPTURE OUT OF THE MANY THAT I KNOW OF- THE VEDRAS - WHICH WE GOT WITH THE OTHER MATERIALS OF SHASTRIJI MAHARAJ ( BY CHANCE ) FROM THE VADTAL MANDIR- AND WE PUBLISHED IT! AND GUNATITANAND SWAMI DID SAY IN THE OPEN THAT HE WAS MUL AKSHAR - THERE WAS A HUGE OPPOSITION BECAUSE BHAGATJI MAHARAJ USED TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE GUNATIT GNAN AND SOME PEOPLE AS USUAL NEVER DID LIKE IT- IT GOT TO THE POINT THAT GUNATITANAND SWAMI WAS ACCUSED OF TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF GOD- THATS WHEN SWAMI CAME TO VADTAL AND CLARIFIED - HE SAID THE ONE THAT CALLS HIMSELF GOD IS THE WORLDS GREATEST DONKEY BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SUPREME GOD OTHER THAN SWAMINARAYAN BHAGWAAN- AND THERE IS NO OTHER MUL AKSHAR OTHER THAN MYSELF . TELL ME HE WAS LYING TOO ? Navs proof is very substantial - but if you can not see through it - its not our fault. JaiSwaminarayan

hi ... i didn't go thru the whole thread before .... but it seems like nav already answered your questions i don't understand y ure still arguing on this matter.... and if you want it clearly written - there were scriptures that had that proof but the your sampraday either re-editted those scriptures or burned or drowned them and some of them are still in the old mandirs but are not getting published - for ex: Harililamrut had 16 parts - but now there are only 12 parts. if you think im lying - investigate. we have nothing to hide but apparently your sampraday has alot to hide. thats how they abide by Maharaj's annuvrutti. burn the proof and then ask for it after. there are just 225 scriptures that are published - and many more that aren't- and they are all under the authority of the vadtal panth. yet the truth always comes out - if you don't believe now some day you will have to- there is no other way. one really good thing that came out of this is that i know i have the need to read our scriptures. I am going to read up on our scriptures - but i don't feel the need to argue with you - b/c regardless of what you think - the truth will remain to be the truth. and you will get to know sooner or later- Although i can vouch with my soul that IF I FOLLOW PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ TO THE END - I WILL END UP IN MAHARAJ'S SEVA IN AKSHARDHAM- theres not a spick of a doubt in my mind. and you did not ans navs question- if you believe Gopalanand Swami as Akshar -why don't you guys have Maharaj's and Gopalanand Swamis murti's together like laxmi narayan and nar-narayan??

i didn't say that you are not under the guidance of good santos - you're the one who said BAPS is wrong and Pramukh Swami does not live according to Maharaj's annuvruti.... where as he is! may be u should read all the 5 parts of jeva me nirkhya - and then you would know.I know because ive lived under his guidance for all my life!- which is a loooong time. And i did not compare the Vadtal Sadhus to Pramukh Swami maharaj ( b/c there is no grounds for that). If Mahraj was not present in Pramukh Swami Maharaj then Our Santos would be like vadtal Santos. Why? - weren't they under the guidance of the Acharya? - why did it take 8 yrs for them to be kicked out of your sampraday where as it didnt take you sooo long to excommunicate such a pious Sant like Shastriji Maharaj- and they ex communicated Him not b/c he was a vyabhichari or a Vyasani- but just b/c the truth that he was preaching wouldn't be digested by the rest. Our guru is Brahmaswaroop! - it does not matter to him wether you put him on a thrown or leave him in an old hut. - and you are right that the acharyas get moksh - but only if they live in accordance to their niyams - there have been acharyas in the past who havn't lived upto their niyams - following niyams does not just apply to the regular devotees or celebates alone- IT APPLY'S TO EVERYONE! and by the way AKSHAR MUKTS ARE FLAWLESS - THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY-FLAWS- THEY ARE AS GOOD AS THE SANT THAT MAHARAJ TALKS OF IN THE VACHANAMRUT (BRAHMA ROOP) ! so u tell me - what if there is an acharya who does not follow niyams who is clearly not brahmaroop ( which there have been in the past) - can he be called a dharmaguru? - how can an un-enlightened person liberate his followers? its like 1000 yrs ago - brahmins said they were brahmins and so they would be liberated b/c they were born into the family - regardless of wether they had worked to attain the qualities needed or not. i do not have any disrespect for the Acharyas - b/c our religion forbids us to. But logically if you think Maharaj left it in the Hands of a true Sant to liberate us.

1. BAPS is the fastest growing Hindu Sampraday In the world. This does not mean that you follow the most popular religion of the era - POINT WAS THAT MAHARAJ IS WITH US AT ALL TIMES THATS WHY WE GROW ... AND WILL GROW - MAHARAJ NI DAYA THI. 2. U said why should Maharaj have a choiciest devotee - u also said that all are equal in the eyes of God. But Maharaj said differently in the Vachanamrut - Uve read so u probably know. people who think the way you do are kusangis - Maharaj says - Je barobariya mane tene kusangi janvo- te vimukh chhe. dude shreeji Maharaj wanted to have his own murti installed in the madhya khand of the amdavad mandir - but they didn't let him - why ? cos it would look bad among the people - this is written in one of our authentic scriptures - i dont remember which one- but it is. During Maharaj's time no one was ready to say out loud that He Is Sarva Karta. - U must have got that from the authentic scriptures that you read ? - tell me somthing - i don't know if youve read about this - but Bhagatji Maharaj ( Pragji Bhakta ) was Gopalanand Swami's Shishya - He was also told by Gopalanand Swami - during his last moments - to go to Junaghad because- Mul Akshar tyaan Viraajman chhe- and he did exactly that- was he lying too ? (this was said and written by Pragji Bhakt) - a person who left all his wealth in order to stay in communion with his Guru ... why would he lie about such a thing - tell me ? what justification does YOUR sampraday give - for Shastriji Maharaj to leave vadtal and choose a life full of trials and tribulations - why would he have done that - if he wanted he could have shut up and had a good life in vadtal - then why did He choose this path of difficulties? because he wanted people to know the true principle behind Swaminarayan. U read the scriptures but did not logically think about that. U said Maharaj was Sarva karta right - then why is it that BAPS grew ? if it was wrong why did it not stop - but kept and still keeps on growing at a high pace. MAHARAJ IS DOING THAT - HE IS SARVA KARTA. Jo E bhadyaa naa hot to amari haalat sokdha mandir jevi thai hot. IF IT IS SUCH A BIG SIN TO FOLLOW PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ AND TO BELIEVE THAT LORD SWAMINARAYAN IS PURNA PURSHOTTAM NARAYAN - AND GUNATITANAND SWAMI IS AKSHARBRAHMA - SO BE IT ! I HAVE JUST AS MUCH FAITH IN MY SAMPRADAY AND MY GURUS - AS NITYANAND SWAMI HAD IN MAHARAJ BUT IN TRUE FACT IT IS NOT A SIN and ill prove it to you