Clear explanation

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:00:18 umbada wrote:

>Thank you for mentioning the excerpt from Nonduality Salon Magazine. It

>is taken from Dr. Trasi's book, with his permission, and is not found

>elsewhere on the internet, as far as I know. At the bottom of the

>article is a link for those who want to learn more about his book.

 

Hi Victor and Jerry,

 

I too have spent some time thinking about Dr. Trasi's article today.

 

(Jerry, thanks for putting it up on the NDS magazine)

 

About a scientific description of enlightenment:

Apart from Dr. Trasi's book and descriptions,

I'm certain that a psychologist / psychiatrist with solid experience of non

duality would be able to describe the state of detachment from self in

professional terms. Maybe a publisher willing to work for the publishing for

such an article / book would be more difficult to find than an enlightened

psychologist as I would believe the traditions of philosophical

materialism in the field of science would be the biggest obstacle in getting

such a book published and even read by other workers of the field.

 

There is a book called "The Neurobiology of Zen" written by a long time zen

practitioner and neurobiologist (I believe the authors field of speciality was

biological psychology, but I may remember wrong). I have not read this book in

its entirety, but what I saw from it (2 years ago) it looked interesting. It did

discuss satori in terms of neurobiology, but as of now, I can remember very

little of it, as I only browsed the book. Perhaps other list members have read

it ?

 

 

Well....

 

This was also another part of Dr Trasi's article I found uplifting; the idea

that enlightenment has nothing to do with spiritual authority or power but is

separate from both:

 

 

"Enlightenment is not some esoteric, magical process. It does not give a man

magical powers, or make him a superman. Enlightenment is simply the

disappearance of an illusion which made him see everything from the point of

view of a `me.' Enlightenment does not make a person all-knowing. When the

scriptures talk of spiritual `knowledge' that occurs upon Enlightenment, they

are not referring to any form of verbal, temporal knowledge. This is not a

knowledge which can be learnt or developed in time. The word knowledge here

refers to the true insight, the intuitive perception that is Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is thus a change in perspective, a change of focus, a paradigm

shift. It is a shift from the constricting, individual focus of a `me' to a view

of life in its totality. It is a shift from being a circle with the illusory

`me' as center, to a circle "whose circumference is everywhere and whose center

is nowhere." The knowledge that comes with Enlightenment is not a temporal

knowledge but is rather an intuitive insight into the way things are in their

totality."

 

 

The ultimate DUH experience.

"Why on earth haven't I seen this before ?"

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Victor,

 

That article on liberation and enlightenment, the separate "me" is very

good.

I concur very much with writer's view on illusion.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/1000nit.htm

Good that you pointed us to it

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

Namaste All, Mumble cat,

 

I cannot see how neurobiology and psychology, can anyway be connected

with moksha in the way described. How can it be possible for the mind

to discuss a condition that is of 'no mind', it is impossible and is

only a preliminary sadhana, like the thorn. It is above intuition

which is of the vijnanamayakosa even. As intellectually satisfying as

it may be.

 

This is exactly what I mean when I say it doesn't come near the Indian

Jivanmuktis, it is just an ersatz western version still connected to

the subtle ego playing it tricks and hiding in the palace.

 

Some spiritual sadhana is necessary, and even effort to overcome

samskaras.

 

This is why I don't involve myself of the NDS so much. However

something is happening here on this satsang it seems, as well.

 

OM Namah Sivaya, Tony. Just my accumulated opinion!!I am still a

sadhaka.

 

 

 

 

, "mumble cat" <mumblecat@a...>

wrote:

>

> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:00:18 umbada wrote:

>

> >Thank you for mentioning the excerpt from Nonduality Salon

Magazine. It

> >is taken from Dr. Trasi's book, with his permission, and is not

found

> >elsewhere on the internet, as far as I know. At the bottom of the

> >article is a link for those who want to learn more about his book.

>

> Hi Victor and Jerry,

>

> I too have spent some time thinking about Dr. Trasi's article today.

>

> (Jerry, thanks for putting it up on the NDS magazine)

>

> About a scientific description of enlightenment:

> Apart from Dr. Trasi's book and descriptions,

> I'm certain that a psychologist / psychiatrist with solid experience

of non duality would be able to describe the state of detachment from

self in professional terms. Maybe a publisher willing to work for the

publishing for such an article / book would be more difficult to find

than an enlightened psychologist as I would believe the

traditions of philosophical materialism in the field of science would

be the biggest obstacle in getting such a book published and even read

by other workers of the field.

>

> There is a book called "The Neurobiology of Zen" written by a long

time zen practitioner and neurobiologist (I believe the authors field

of speciality was biological psychology, but I may remember wrong). I

have not read this book in its entirety, but what I saw from it (2

years ago) it looked interesting. It did discuss satori in terms of

neurobiology, but as of now, I can remember very little of it, as I

only browsed the book. Perhaps other list members have read it ?

>

>

> Well....

>

> This was also another part of Dr Trasi's article I found uplifting;

the idea that enlightenment has nothing to do with spiritual authority

or power but is separate from both:

>

>

> "Enlightenment is not some esoteric, magical process. It does not

give a man magical powers, or make him a superman. Enlightenment is

simply the disappearance of an illusion which made him see everything

from the point of view of a `me.' Enlightenment does not make a person

all-knowing. When the scriptures talk of spiritual `knowledge' that

occurs upon Enlightenment, they are not referring to any form of

verbal, temporal knowledge. This is not a knowledge which can be

learnt or developed in time. The word knowledge here refers to the

true insight, the intuitive perception that is Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is thus a change in perspective, a change of focus, a

paradigm shift. It is a shift from the constricting, individual focus

of a `me' to a view of life in its totality. It is a shift from being

a circle with the illusory `me' as center, to a circle "whose

circumference is everywhere and whose center is nowhere." The

knowledge that comes with Enlightenment is not a temporal knowledge

but is rather an intuitive insight into the way things are in their

totality."

>

>

> The ultimate DUH experience.

> "Why on earth haven't I seen this before ?"

>

>

> Love,

>

> Amanda.

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

Namast,

 

According to Patanjali, moksha needs continual samadhis to eliminate

the samskaras that prevent it. It is not usual for jivanmuktis to

write articles or books, usually their saying are written down and

printed by somebody else. For writing is an intellectual exercise

of the mind. Some may write who claim to be jivanmuktis and yet

others have ghost writers.

 

Parakshit's Thief in the Palace can play many tricks, and one of them

is to give people an impression of detachment and a feeling of being

the witness. Just as savikalpa samadhis are deceiving, or even yoga

nidras, so it this condition. Yes it is a withdrawal of someking,

almost like a child talking about itself in the third person.

 

However the witness condition as described in Vedanta is of two birds

on the one tree. One being the Jiva and the other being the Saguna

Brahman. In samsaric illusion, Saguna Brahman or the Goddess is the

witness. This would require a becoming that is beyond the lower

attachments or even lower samadhis. This is where the ego hides and

lets a person think they have become the witness, it is still within

the mind therefore unreal and illusion.

 

My gleaned opinion again, I am still a sadhaka.

 

Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

[Guest guest]

, "mumble cat" <mumblecat@a...>

wrote:

>>>> This was also another part of Dr Trasi's article I found

uplifting; the idea that enlightenment has nothing to do with

spiritual authority or power but is separate from both:

..

..

"Enlightenment is not some esoteric, magical process. It does not give

a man magical powers, or make him a superman. Enlightenment is simply

the disappearance of an illusion which made him see everything from

the point of view of a `me.' Enlightenment does not make a person

all-knowing. When the scriptures talk of spiritual `knowledge' that

occurs upon Enlightenment, they are not referring to any form of

verbal, temporal knowledge. This is not a knowledge which can be

learnt or developed in time. The word knowledge here refers to the

true insight, the intuitive perception that is Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is thus a change in perspective, a change of focus, a

paradigm shift. It is a shift from the constricting, individual focus

of a `me' to a view of life in its totality. It is a shift from being

a circle with the illusory `me' as center, to a circle "whose

circumference is everywhere and whose center is nowhere." The

knowledge that comes with Enlightenment is not a temporal knowledge

but is rather an intuitive insight into the way things are in their

totality." <<<<

 

Hi Amanda,

 

What I enjoyed concerning Dr. Trasi's article was the

straightforwardness of his explanation --- primarily that there is

real pain and suffering which is unavoidable and there is

unreal/psychological pain and suffering which is merely an

embellishment both completely unnecessary and avoidable.

 

Love,

 

Victor

[Guest guest]

, "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...>

wrote:

>>>> Dear Victor,

 

That article on liberation and enlightenment, the separate "me" is

very good. I concur very much with writer's view on

illusion.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/1000nit.htm

Good that you pointed us to it. <<<<

 

Dear Wim,

 

Yeah --- what I liked was his straightforwardness and his ability to

describe complex ideas clearly.

 

Love, Victor

[Guest guest]

On 10/30/00 at 10:55 PM Tony O'Clery wrote:

 

ºNamaste All, Mumble cat,

º

ºI cannot see how neurobiology and psychology, can anyway be connected

ºwith moksha in the way described. How can it be possible for the mind

ºto discuss a condition that is of 'no mind', it is impossible and is

ºonly a preliminary sadhana, like the thorn. It is above intuition

ºwhich is of the vijnanamayakosa even. As intellectually satisfying as

ºit may be.

 

In the West, there is no description of moksha - only "how to get there" (for

instance Rosicrucianism) and it isn't popular (sadhana takes time and "effort").

The recent "craze" is about recognition of "who you are", the classical Zen-type

of enlightenment.

º

ºThis is exactly what I mean when I say it doesn't come near the Indian

ºJivanmuktis, it is just an ersatz western version still connected to

ºthe subtle ego playing it tricks and hiding in the palace.

 

Recognizing "who you are" doesn't change the mind, it has the potential to

change the mind and the literature on Jivan Mukti abounds with descriptions of

dissolving the mind, destruction of the "lower" mind etc. That makes the

difference between the natural self-discipline of the Jivan Mukta and the

"average enlightened Westerner".

º

ºSome spiritual sadhana is necessary, and even effort to overcome

ºsamskaras.

 

True, quite a lot of samskaras have to be uprooted - those that make a

difference between "you" and "me". But more important, moksha concerns the

impossibility to make new impressions that would fetter one - meaning the

dissolution of emotional memory.

º

ºThis is why I don't involve myself of the NDS so much. However

ºsomething is happening here on this satsang it seems, as well.

 

No doubt the originators of Zen did assume that the "sudden, clear insight"

would reveal the necessity to do some "home work" - in the same sense that the

Buddha, after his enlightenment, didn't immediately attain nirvana Usually it

takes many years. In the Patanjali Sutras, the same story. Meditation and study

of the scriptures, self-surrender, enlightenment, unconditional self-surrender,

K. awakening, samadhis and moksha is the classical sequence... The only shortcut

is to skip meditation and study of the scriptures and that is rare (Ramana).

º

ºOM Namah Sivaya, Tony. Just my accumulated opinion!!I am still a

ºsadhaka.

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

> It is not usual for jivanmuktis to

> write articles or books, usually their sayings are written down and

> printed by somebody else. For writing is an intellectual exercise

> of the mind.

 

There is quite a difference I found and find between writing email-wise and

writing articles or books. There is no reason for contemporary jivanmuktis

to have a lifestyle identical to historical liberated persons. The world may

change, has changed, freedom IN it is the same, the way it manifests can be

in contemporary ways though, why not, that is a sign of freedom.

Have to say though that I prefer to be naked, and often am, so there! It

either means I am crazy or that I am in line with Muktananda, Rudrananda,

Ramana Maharshi, Sai Baba of Shirdi, etc. My god, I even sometimes wear

something that resembles their loin stuff. When I built this house, some

20 - 25 years ago, I wore a loincloth most of the time. (Granted, when

nobody was looking, I was not yet very free Omigosh, Tony, what's

happening to me? Yes, I have to admit all the signs are there, never even

thought about that :-) hehehehe.

 

I used to write years ago... the book way, but found that that indeed became

impossible, undesirable even.

Satsang, ashrams, the way it used to be, it is all so different now, we are

now in a cyber world. It does make a difference, although that is a rather

cliche observation. Internet indeed puts information at our fingertips, just

put a link in and there you go, the writing has already been done, the

reader just has to look it up, 'hyper text'.

> For writing is an intellectual exercise of the mind.

 

I find that less so, now. Just writing my experiences, witnessing, giving an

account of them. No mental involvement needed. Just nerve and brain,

functional stuff. All from experiential input, feeling, senses, sensual

digestion not mental involvement, kid stuff almost (the little Brahman).

 

I bet you, I use the cerebellum more to type than the cerebrum and

mesencephalon, the parts of the brain that are usually kept so busy with

mental processing. Which is neat, so the glorious sweetness and bliss does

not have to disappear when I do write.

I can actually record that with a biofeedback apparatus I use in my

practice, (Aurastar, an Aura - Chakra biofeedback system based energy

readings from the reflex zones of the hand.)www.colourenergy.com

On a scale from 1 to 100 (50 being normal) most adult mind/intellect

centered ppl. have a cerebellum activity of 20 %. While in sensory and

physically active, as well as creative people cerebellum activity can be as

high as 100%. Many parts of the brain of self-liberating or liberated people

(and many glands and organs in the rest of their body) often reach 100 %.

For many people who have those numbers high, I can tell if they are on the

self realization track (or not) by looking at the energy levels of other

physical organs (thyroid, thymus, lymph system, urinal system, lungs,

pancreas, liver.) When they record energy levels below 40% we often have a

person on the machine with a mind / body split. Usually when I see an

average of 60 % over a narrow range (between 55 and 65 %) I know we've got a

person who is in the proces of freeing or healing him or herself.

I have had a 'jivan mukti' on the apparatus who's numbers were in a very

narrow range around 90%. Aura all pink and white with some light blue, all

chakras open and neatly balanced.

When I am on the machine the numbers and colours (if they register at all)

are indicative of quite a neat and free kind of guy with some small spots

often a bit gunky. I should say that very often the machine does not

register readings from healers and 'realizers'. The hands have to be

prepared a bit differently. The 'healers and 'realizers' more unconditional

states allows them to shrink their aura, also a sign of subjects who easily

reach Samadhi states or have gone through NDEs (near death experiences). I

think the shrinking is also needed in order not to be susceptible to

external negativity. I am sometimes not careful. Which is OK with me, still

have to learn so much more of the human condition.

> Parakshit's Thief in the Palace can play many tricks, and one of them

> is to give people an impression of detachment and a feeling of being

> the witness.

 

Oh, that sounds a little too much like the christian satan. Do we have to be

"beware" now, is all this what we do really the devil, the anti-christ, evil

creeping in on us?

I am joking only a little bit here.

> This is where the ego hides and lets a person

> think they have become the witness, it is still

> within the mind therefore unreal and illusion.

 

Tony, the EGO is illusion, does actually not even exist, cannot even hide.

The concept of EGO is an invention of religious powermongers, it is used to

play illusive tricks on you that lead eventually to suffering, anger,

bitterness, and vengeful actions. All the while are you enslaved... get off

it right now!.

You have tackled it once, do not set the trap for yourself again.

> My gleaned opinion again, I am still a sadhaka.

 

Right, so let go of most opinions in those paragraphs:

>>>>>Parakshit's Thief in the Palace can play many tricks, and one of them

is to give people an impression of detachment and a feeling of being

the witness. Just as savikalpa samadhis are deceiving, or even yoga

nidras, so is this condition. Yes it is a withdrawal of something,

almost like a child talking about itself in the third person.

 

However the witness condition as described in Vedanta is of two birds

on the one tree. One being the Jiva and the other being the Saguna

Brahman. In samsaric illusion, Saguna Brahman or the Goddess is the

witness. This would require a becoming that is beyond the lower

attachments or even lower samadhis. This is where the ego hides and

lets a person think they have become the witness, it is still within

the mind therefore unreal and illusion.>>>>>

 

That is a lot of gobbledegook.

So much moral stuff in the above two paragraphs.

Swami stuff not Yogi stuff,

Sermon stuff not inspiration stuff.

Pastor stuff not Jesus stuff.

(Oh, did I just put my foot in my mouth?)

The difference between spirituality and religion.

> Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

Like wise, Tony, and could you find out more about Vishnu?

 

How do you like Indian art and sculpture, Tibetan and Cambodian (Khmer

empire), Oriental art, sculpture and architecture overall? Tangible art is

beyond words, it does not argue.

When I see Shiva and Vishnu in one sculpture (Hari Hara) I get immediately

touched, no mind there.

 

Love,

Wim