Ivan's criticque of Ram Tzu/Guru stories

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ivan for your post and clarification of your critique of Wayne

(Ram Tzu)'s "no way". I very much enjoyed your words and reasoning and have

read your other posts with great interest. You are clearly gifted with

intellectual and spiritual power. Kindness and compassion are not

inconsistent with an intelligence that has a sharp faculty of

discrimination. An inner independence from all traditions and school of

thoughts and an utterly penetrating insight into the nature of things is the

hallmark of a genuine Sage.

 

One time a group of devotees reported to Ramana Maharshi that Sehsdhari

Swami (who knew Ramana well but had now passed on) was being channeled by a

man in town. The devotees discussed how the dead Swami was being channeled

by this man, and how surprising it all was. The Sage of Arunachala smiled

and said sarcastically, " We knew Sehsdhari well and moved together often on

the hill. It is a pity that he does not come and speak to us but instead

chooses to channel through this other man!" :-). The devotees roared with

laughter.

 

I am passing on the joke below that Linda posted on . It made

me smile and hope will do the same for everyone else. Hey folks, too much

seriousness is not healthy. There are enough things in the world to make us

weep for life times. So let us laugh a little..........................love

to all..........Harsha

 

 

Hello:

 

I heard a funny story last night. Seems there was this devotee who had been

with his guru for 18 years and found out some stuff about him. He went to

his guru and said I've heard that you are a liar, cheat and hypocrite. The

guru got angry, called him an ingrate and told him to go away for 6 months

and meditate. After 6 month the disciple went back to the guru. The guru

got excited and assumed the disciple had learned the errors of his way. So

his asked him if God had spoken to him and the disciple told him yes and the

guru wanted to know what he said and he told him that he told him the guru

was a liar, a cheat and a hypocrite. The guru got quiet and after a long

pause said to him with much excitement "He mentioned me by name !!!!!"

 

Namaste,

Linda

 

P.S. Yes, Harsha I do remember another funny guru story shared quite a

while ago on the list....I missed the humor and you told me that I needed to

laugh more....I do laugh much more about it all these days....thanks in some

ways to the sharing of this list.

 

LInda

 

 

Ivan Frimmel [ivanf]

 

Wow!

 

Until tonight I had no idea about this "war of words"

raging on NDS over some statements I made in my critique

of Ram Tzu's (Wayne Liquorman's) book No Way.

 

Why did not someone tell me about the "war" earlier?

I may have enjoyed participating in a few battles myself.

 

All I can do now is to act surprised

at some of the traits it exposed and talents it stimulated here,

and thank all of you

for tonight's one hour of free but priceless entertainment.

 

I am still laughing as I write this

at some of the hillarious and creative entries on this subject.

 

* * * * * * *

 

What did I offer by my critique, Judi?

Nothing but a MIRROR for Wayne to see himself in,

and unwittingly a mirror for all of us

to see ourselves and our beliefs in.

 

If you read No Way, you will see that some 80% of "my" statements,

especially the most offensive ones,

were actually Wayne's own statements, reversed back to him.

The numbers in brackets refer to the chapters

from which the words were taken.

 

If Wayne can dish this kind of crap at his readers,

he should be able to take the same kind of crap back.

 

If Judi is, for whatever reason,

blind to the abuse Wayne dished out in between the "sweeties",

or prepared to be abused in this way, or see only the sweeties –

(perhaps because the abuse comes from someone who

"fell in love with a toothless banker from Bombay",

or who is her buddy or guru)

- that's her choice.

 

My choice was to give Wayne back a taste of his own medicine

and to see if he can take what he so freely dishes out to others

in this particular book.

 

I don't know Wayne at all. I never met the guy,

or read any other book written by him or about him.

He may be a very nice person, friend, husband, father, teacher...

Unlike Judi, I can only judge him by the words he used in his book

- and I did not like a great deal of what I read there.

 

And I still feel the need to apologize to Wayne (and all Waynes)

for calling his name dull and boring.

With a name like mine, who am I to criticize someone else's?

I know I went a bit overboard with my adjectives here.

But that's ALL I feel guilty about.

 

Most of my critique are Wayne's own

offensive, abusive and patronizing words in reverse,

so I really have nothing else to apologize for.

 

Maybe he should apologize to those of us

who are sensitive enough to this kind of abuse.

 

I suspect, if he replies, he will say

that he was badly misunderstood,

or quoted out of context.

 

He was not.

 

* * * * * * *

 

I am not going to repeat with Judi the same formula I used with Wayne

and call her back the kind of rude names

she called me on this website.

God knows, she may be right, and I may deserve it.

I can take it, but could she take it back?

I am not sure - and I don't want to take that chance.

 

But I do have to say that I think Judi's reason about this matter

was (or still is? - for how long?) blinded by her emotions.

 

In all her many, many postings Judi did not provide

one single rational reason for her resentment

of me, my critique, or anyone who dared to support my opinions -

and there were many more people who did that, than those who did not.

All I could see is her repeated verbal expressions of her emotions.

 

I know Judy believes that she provided ample and rational proof

to support her emotions when she quoted some of Wayne's "sweeties",

and that the truth of her beliefs will be self-evident

from these quotes. It was not. Not for me.

 

For example, I would never try to defend a pedofile (sorry for using

such a strong example here, but I cannot think of a better one right

now) on the basis that he usually gives some really good sweets to

his intended victims.

 

Judi may be a very nice person, wife, mother, friend, etc.,

but in this lengthy NDS exchange,

which was kept alive for soooooo long mostly by her tenacity,

she proved beyond any doubt only these points:

 

a) she likes Wayne and his book, regardless of any criticism, no

matter how valid;

b) she hates me - and all those who agree with me, or like me;

c) she is very stubborn, and a poor loser; she cannot give up; she

must be right, no matter how many people tell her she may be wrong;

d) she has very little sense of humor when it comes to her (or those

dear to her) being criticised;

e) hell knows no fury like when a (wo)man's holy cow is scorned.

 

When we reach a stage that we cannot criticize holy cows anymore,

and are blinded by some emotions to their shortcomings,

we are all fucked (expression borrowed from Ram Tzu).

 

* * * * * * *

 

Please don't expect me to prolong this "war of words" any longer, or

reply to any personal attacks, vitriolic emotions, or irrational

arguments.

 

I generally prefer reason, logical arguments and rational people,

and also people who can laugh at their own - as well as at other

people's - folly. My critique of Wayne's No Way was meant to be

lighthearted, and most people saw it as such, except some, like Judi.

 

It was also totally impersonal and based primarily on reason, mostly

just reversing his own words. If my critique sounded personal, it was

only because his remarks sounded just as personal in reverse, as they

were in his original text. If it stimulated some emotional response

in some readers, well, that's what a mirror often does.

 

* * * * * * *

 

If it is true that "any publicity is good publicity",

Wayne should thank me for (unwittingly) generating so much publicity

for his mediocre book, and to Judi for keeping the debate alive for

so (undeservedly)long on this website.

 

* * * * * * *

 

I certainly don't intend to sniff any longer

around this "bitch in heat" Ram Tzu

who is thinking that "all of us need his attention" (his words).

 

Maybe Judi still chooses to do so.

I don't.

 

I will let Judi have the last words for me,

if she wishes to do so.

 

But if it is going to be some more personal abuse,

I will certainly know at least one person,

purportedly enlightened,

that she is emulating.

 

Love,

 

Ivan.