Monkey on the Donkey

[Guest guest]

Although all teachers are ultimately false, a good and genuine teacher can

be very helpful on the path. Words can convey something about the existence

of the Truth. The words of the wise can bring you to the brink but cannot

deliver the Truth. That is because You Are Already the Truth. To Know It

with Supreme Clarity, your sincere longing and aspiration is needed. It is

only due to Grace that one suffers and reflects on the nature of things.

Therefore, one should not feel hopeless and gradually continue in the

company of good people who follow the teachings of nonviolence.

 

It is only due to Grace, one comes across the purest teachings. It is only

due to Grace one understands the teachings. Clever words and arguments

involve the intellect. But the highest teachings is a matter of the Heart

and It is Grace It Self. Such a teaching leads directly to Silence of

Self-Knowledge and then disappears completely. What can one truly say?

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

 

Although all teachers are ultimately false, a good and genuine teacher

can be very helpful on the path. Words can convey something about the

existence of the Truth. The words of the wise can bring you to the brink

but cannot deliver the Truth. That is because You Are Already the Truth.

To Know It with Supreme Clarity, your sincere longing and aspiration is

needed. It is only due to Grace that one suffers and reflects on the

nature of things. Therefore, one should not feel hopeless and gradually

continue in the company of good people who follow the teachings of

nonviolence.

 

It is only due to Grace, one comes across the purest teachings. It is

only due to Grace one understands the teachings. Clever words and

arguments involve the intellect. But the highest teachings is a matter

of the Heart and It is Grace It Self. Such a teaching leads directly to

Silence of Self-Knowledge and then disappears completely. What can one

truly say?

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Amen brother - amen. May all soon be blessed with Grace.

 

May peace and peace and peace be everywhere. May love bloom everywhere.

 

Love,

 

Victor

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsha,

 

You wrote:

> ....It is only due to Grace, one comes across the purest teachings. It is

> only due to Grace one understands the teachings....

 

Harsha, I am going to be a bit naughty here. I do not fully know how to

formulate my naughtiness yet though. Do not react with answers on what

follows, as you know I am not looking for them.

 

This, what I write here, is not about questions to be answered. I have none,

you know that. Neither do I have answers as I do not listen to questions.

 

This is about doubt, not mine but 'general doubt as well as self doubt' that

remarks like the above tend to activate or reactivate in people.

 

I want to concentrate on the 'doubt' that the 'run of the mill message about

grace' seems to unintentionally and unspokenly broadcast. It (doubt)

vibrates disharmoniously in the background of the lovely vibrations that

words on Grace tend to invoke.

 

There is something wrong with the way Grace is portrayed and your sentence

above exemplifies it. (And I thank you for that. You know, Harsha, I do.)

 

I bet you, many people who read or hear Grace statements, wonder how come

Grace has not come their way. Such statements appear most often in catholic

/ calvinist / lutheran moralist environments as well as in certain 'new

agey' pseudo-spiritual environments. There is an underhanded judgementalism

in there, something like, "You don't receive Grace unless you admit you are

the sinner or put blame on yourself."

 

We have to be very careful not to let those hidden sentiments creep into the

backdoor of this community.

 

Many spiritual aspirants who work so hard on themselves, will wonder why is

Grace passing them by.

> It is only due to Grace one understands the teachings.

 

Does that mean that if one does not come upon the purest teachings or

understands them, that Grace has not selected us or guided us there? Where

we just a bit out of luck? Why did it select my neighbour and not me? What's

wrong with me?

 

Again these are not questions that require an answer, these are voiced or

unvoiced doubts. And you and I know from experience that even if we try to

answer to those doubts of that person so engrossed in self doubt, - there is

even a specific facial expression that comes with it - that no amount of

talking about Grace can wipe that off their face or erase it from their

soul.

Something else has to be discovered...

 

I live in Grace, I am Grace, I have not ever been without Grace, even my

hardest moments were full of Grace. In all my suffering when the Catholic /

Calvinist / Lutheran world was telling me about 'grace' they were really

giving me a message of guilt and sin. I had to adopt guilt and judgement,

admit to sin, I had to admit that I was the culprit, I was to blame before

Grace could even be considered...

By the way, I know exactly when that fallacious thing about grace happened

in my life.(In Dutch "grace" is called "genade", "Om genade vragen",

asking

for grace, grace can be granted or denied) It was in a life/death fight with

my brother.

Will leave that for later.

 

To repeat it a bit:

In order for grace to be granted, or for me to be able to receive grace, I

had to adopt guilt and judgement, admit to sin, I had to admit that I was

the culprit, I was to blame before Grace could even be considered...

 

I objected tremendously to that.

There is something very conditional in that.

God's Graces ain't that way.

 

Divine Grace and our human understanding and manipulation of grace are not

the same. But we mix them up when we 'so well intendedly' but a bit

carelessly talk about Grace.

 

What follows is not fully thought through by me yet. But let me give it a

try.

 

In Grace YOU discover that blame was applied wrongly. In Grace YOU discover

that YOU were not to blame. In Grace, the violator, compassionately to him

or herself and compassionately to YOU asks for understanding and compassion,

knowing that it can not and will not be denied.

 

I want to leave it at this.

I think I cast enough doubt upon 'run of the mill grace.' :-)

And that is all I intended.

 

Love,

Wim

 

Click the "Send" button by the Grace of God.

[Guest guest]

Wim Borsboom wrote:

Dear Harsha,

You wrote:

> ....It is only due to Grace, one comes across the purest teachings.

It is

> only due to Grace one understands the teachings....

.. There is an underhanded judgementalism

in there, something like, "You don't receive Grace unless you admit

you are

the sinner or put blame on yourself."

If one considers oneself worthy in

all respects,

could not this frame of thought

result in an arrogance that

bars one from understanding the

truth of oneself?

Mace

I want to leave it at this.

I think I cast enough doubt upon 'run of the mill grace.' :-)

And that is all I intended.

Love,

Wim

Click the "Send" button by the Grace of God.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mace,

 

I wrote:

> > There is an underhanded judgementalism

> > in there, something like, "You don't receive Grace unless you admit you

are

> > the sinner or put blame on yourself."

 

You wrote:

> If one considers oneself worthy in all respects,

> could not this frame of thought result in an arrogance that

> bars one from understanding the truth of oneself?

 

I appreciate your comment Mace, and superficially seen you are right...

I also appreciate your gracious response... I have heard and had to endure

rather ungracious ones... thank God not on email groups and not over the

last year.

So things are working out, my arrogance diminishing as time goes on.

> ...an arrogance that bars one from understanding the truth of oneself?

 

So, no worry, it sorts itself out... arrogance will disappear... as

arrogance is still based on "not considering oneself worthy in all

respects."

 

Jesus was seen a an arrogant SOB by some...

 

I realize I need to work a bit more on my deliberations about Grace, deepen

things out a bit. Grace is such an complex topic. The word itself went

through such a history of different meanings and uses.

 

Etymologically the word 'grace' is rooted in the Sanskrit 'hari' = 'desire',

'yearning' (hari hara). Hari, grace, the hr and gr sounds are related.

When we use the word 'grace' the various meanings and uses through the ages

still (mostly subconsciously) reverberate in us.

 

Love,

Wim

[Guest guest]

On 11/14/00 at 9:13 PM Mace Mealer wrote: [...]

If one considers oneself worthy in all respects, could not this

frame of thought result in an arrogance that bars one from

understanding the truth of oneself?

Mace

[...]

 

That's a good observation Mace. As long as there are thoughts about

deserving, worthiness etc., whether about oneself or "others", there

is an "I" having these thoughts and that mars Understanding.

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Monkey on the Donkey

[...]

If one considers oneself worthy in all respects, could not this

frame of thought result in an arrogance that bars one from

understanding the truth of oneself?

Mace

[...]

 

That's a good observation Mace. As long as there are thoughts about

deserving, worthiness etc., whether about oneself or "others", there

is an "I" having these thoughts and that mars Understanding.

 

Love,

Jan

Yes that is true, Ooops to late "I" just though about such a truth.

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

Hi Wim:

Being raised Catholic I can certainly understand your points about

"grace" from a Christian perspective. I think that the issue lies

with the Christian perspective of reward and punishment which has

always been a part of the Judeo Christian perspective. Those who do

not look beyond will have to wait for a bigger shift in religious

perspective in order to know the non-subjective nature of Grace.

Harsha also stated "It is only due to Grace that one suffers and

reflects on the nature of things." This statement covers the fact

that Grace is not a reward but is behind whatever it is that pushes

us towards higher levels of awareness. IMO Grace is actually the

same as Shakti and when one is in a more active state the so called

"good" and "bad" come visiting at a rather rapid pace.

Love,

Linda

>Harsha, I am going to be a bit naughty here. I do not fully know how

to>formulate my naughtiness yet though. Do not react with answers on

what>follows, as you know I am not looking for them.>I want to

concentrate on the 'doubt' that the 'run of the mill message

>about>grace' seems to unintentionally and unspokenly broadcast. It

(doubt)>vibrates disharmoniously in the background of the lovely

vibrations that>words on Grace tend to invoke.>There is something

wrong with the way Grace is portrayed and your >sentence>above

exemplifies it. (And I thank you for that. You know, Harsha, I do.)>I

bet you, many people who read or hear Grace statements, wonder how

come>Grace has not come their way. Such statements appear most often

in >catholic>/ calvinist / lutheran moralist environments as well as

in certain 'new>agey' pseudo-spiritual environments. There is an

underhanded >judgementalism>in there, something like, "You don't

receive Grace unless you admit you >are>the sinner or put blame on

yourself.">We have to be very careful not to let those hidden

sentiments creep into >the>backdoor of this community.>Many spiritual

aspirants who work so hard on themselves, will wonder why >is>Grace

passing them by.> It is only due to Grace one understands the

teachings.>Love,>WimClick the "Send" button by the Grace of

God.// All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to

the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on

the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

Wim Borsboom wrote:

> Dear Mace,

>

> I wrote:

> > > There is an underhanded judgementalism

> > > in there, something like, "You don't receive Grace unless you admit you

> are

> > > the sinner or put blame on yourself."

>

> You wrote:

> > If one considers oneself worthy in all respects,

> > could not this frame of thought result in an arrogance that

> > bars one from understanding the truth of oneself?

>

> I appreciate your comment Mace, and superficially seen you are right...

 

Superficiality is my specialty.

>

> I also appreciate your gracious response... I have heard and had to endure

> rather ungracious ones... thank God not on email groups and not over the

> last year.

> So things are working out, my arrogance diminishing as time goes on.

 

Unfortunately, mine apparently continues to grow as evidenced by my comment.

>

>

> > ...an arrogance that bars one from understanding the truth of oneself?

>

> So, no worry, it sorts itself out... arrogance will disappear... as

> arrogance is still based on "not considering oneself worthy in all

> respects."

>

> Jesus was seen a an arrogant SOB by some...

>

 

Aren't we all from time to time?

>

> I realize I need to work a bit more on my deliberations about Grace, deepen

> things out a bit. Grace is such an complex topic.

 

No argument there. Mace

> The word itself went

> through such a history of different meanings and uses.

>

> Etymologically the word 'grace' is rooted in the Sanskrit 'hari' = 'desire',

> 'yearning' (hari hara). Hari, grace, the hr and gr sounds are related.

> When we use the word 'grace' the various meanings and uses through the ages

> still (mostly subconsciously) reverberate in us.

>

> Love,

> Wim

>

>

[Guest guest]

jb wrote:

On 11/14/00 at 9:13

PM Mace Mealer wrote:

 

[...]

If one considers oneself worthy

in all respects,

could not this frame of thought

result in an arrogance that

bars one from understanding the

truth of oneself?

Mace

[...] That's

a good observation Mace. As long as there are thoughts about deserving,

worthiness etc., whether about oneself or "others", there is an "I" having

these thoughts and that mars Understanding. Love,Jan

Thank you for your comment,

I was once concerned that those that held this position

would by reason of it, be enforced to silence in order to declare it, and

that in it's

declaration, even internally, negate the foundation of its truth. I am,

however pleased

to find so much exciting and interesting dialogue between it's adherents.

Mace

[Guest guest]

On 11/15/00 at 7:56 AM LC wrote:

Hi Wim:

 

Being raised Catholic I can certainly understand your points about

"grace" from a Christian perspective. I think that the issue lies

with the Christian perspective of reward and punishment which has

always been a part of the Judeo Christian perspective. Those who do

not look beyond will have to wait for a bigger shift in religious

perspective in order to know the non-subjective nature of Grace.

Harsha also stated "It is only due to Grace that one suffers and

reflects on the nature of things." This statement covers the fact

that Grace is not a reward but is behind whatever it is that pushes

us towards higher levels of awareness. IMO Grace is actually the

same as Shakti and when one is in a more active state the so called

"good" and "bad" come visiting at a rather rapid pace.

 

Love,

Linda

 

 

Hi Linda,

 

What you said about Shakti , the "good" and the "bad", once inspired a

little derisive poem

 

 

Who cares about a "me"

When bliss means "just to Be"

Issues like "is it virtue or a vice"

It's feelings once more playing dice.

 

Where is a laugh one finds a tear

Some feelings are extremely near

The joy of Being one can't feel

So it inspires a lot of fear

 

The joy of being is without compare

But enjoyed only to the full

When feelings have been hunted like a hare

And found to be a veiling tulle

 

Some saying "feeling bad or feeling well"

But I laugh "Let all feelings go to hell"

Who cares that feelings are "That" too

Just tired of playing peekaboo

Just tired of all returning

And at last the raft is burning

 

Where is a laugh one finds a tear

Some feelings are extremely near

You laugh or cry

And I will have another beer

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Dear Linda,

 

Harsha wrote:

>> "It is only due to Grace that one suffers and reflects on the nature of

things."

 

You wrote:

>>> This statement covers the fact that Grace is not a reward but is behind

whatever it is that pushes us towards higher levels of awareness. IMO Grace

is actually the same as Shakti and when one is in a more active state the so

called "good" and "bad" come visiting at a rather rapid pace.>>>

 

Yes, one could say that Shakti is the power of manifestation that comes

forward from Grace.

 

When I have a chance to go deeper into this I probably want to write a bit

on the history of the word Grace. Let me give it a start....

 

In the Western civilization, in the olden days, when we used to address

kings, queens, emporers, empresses, bishops (male and female), cardinals

(male and female?), popes (yes, male or female), we always used the

salutation "Your Grace" (That is English of course, Latin evidence shows up

in the christian prayer of the 'Hail Mary: "Ave Maria *gratia* plena.").

 

These people of 'power' were the unquestioned placeholders of God on earth

and were to express and wield Divine Power (Might or Shakti). In fact they

were considered 'God actualized in human form here and now'. Jesus was such

a King, every deified king in any culture was such a King.

 

Power, Might, Shakti or Energy is emanated by their very office.

 

So indeed Shakti comes from Grace. Or one could say Shakti is the energetic

manifestation of Grace. That Graciuos Shakti is always coming forth freely,

meaning free...gratis, granted. Whoever came... received it , no questions

asked...

Satsangh ---> Shaktipat

 

Good Kings were primed for that during their princely education. They always

had philosophers as advisors. Books were written by them for kings (Tao Te

Ching, Bhagavat Gita, the State by Plato) so that the kings would be the

absolute representation of God on Earth.

Many Vedas were written with just that in mind.

 

Petition to a King:

"Your Grace, you will unconditionally bestow upon on me the gift of life,

freedom and protection. I yearn for that, I *desire* that. Return to me my

birthright that I hereby *reclaim*."

 

Petitioners had already made themselves unconditionally available to the

protection of life and freedom of the king. Otherwise they would not have

been granted an 'audience' with the king.

The "precondition" to become a petitioner for freedom was to

"unconditionally" offer oneself up. The king would do so in turn and in

kind. Grace and Gratitude express the reciprocal dynamics.

 

This is the very thing Jesus Christ had in mind when Peter and him went

through that "installation of the pope" ceremony that is so clumsily retold

in the New Testament. There is so much more to this...

 

One has to realize that those are still the days of slavery. A slave was

'some body' (as opposed 'elcker lyck', 'jeder mann', every one', 'every

man') who somehow had lost freedom in his or her community, was

excommunicated, lived in 'sin'. 'Sin' has roots in the Latin word for

'without', 'outside' = 'sine' (as in 'sine qua non'). Slaves were originally

excommunicated people, excluded from a community, without a tribe...

therefore up for grabs, for sale, they could be enslaved. (Not to condone it

though, but the paradigm was so different.)

There is so much to this...

 

Freemen were people who one way or another had not lost their birth right,

or had won the right to reclaim their freedom. God, through the King, could

fulfill that *desire*, grant it, grace them with it. De-sire, ('sire' comes

from 'star', a Judaic king was the 'star' of David. Sire, another salutation

for kings and lords. Wishing upon a star. De - sire - ing, asking something

from the king (sire).

 

I know all this is cerebral, brainy...

But hey, is there anything wrong with that...?

Aren't us humans graced with a brain?

Is that not part of our integral being?

Does that not guarantee freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of will

The brain.... an instrument of Grace?

Well why not!

 

Love,

Wim

 

(Alive with grace and glory and a brain to boot.)

[Guest guest]

I think what you guys are talking about here, is the fact of being 'unworthy

of grace' and how that applies. I think this relates to the conversation

Wim and I had a little while ago about how people percieve you and how that

should not be important (sorry I can't be bothered cuting and pasting

everything). You belive you are being seen as unworthy by another (man or

god - whatever).

 

Maybe this is because they are someones morals, systems and beliefs.

 

I think that any system (religion - whatever) does not prescribe the truth

for all, but rather the complete truth for one (creator, writer), and then a

percentage of truth for others.

 

On the 'unworthy person'

But the 'unworthy' complex can produce a marvelously meek, generous and

gracious person. This person is driven by a fear (i guess) to live this

kind of life, and they are effectively cutting out the I (in a way, perhaps

not exactly what was meant earlier). These people are always putting others

first, giving of their own worth to increase the worth of others. I think

this IS grace (in a form, but not all aspects of it).

 

As my view is right now is that anything that is said is dogma, but is only

applicable to one individual. Think for yourself, what is grace to you and

if it is important then seek ways to acheive what you think that is. Or

then again maybe you can find the answers in a book, or on the internet,

maybe you are doing it perfectly now.... Yeah that's it everything is

perfect now.

 

Ummm ok, I guess that kind of says what I mean here......

 

Excuse the sloppy nature of the email.

 

Steve McLachlan