The Science of Enlightenment -- Reincarnation?!!

[Guest guest]

4:07:20 Gill Collingwood wrote:

>The one thing that strikes me most forcibly, is the author's belief

>that reincarnation is a myth. He states that upon dying,

>enlightenment occurs (if it hasn't already), because the belief in

>separation is simply part of the body/mind complex, and therefore

>dies with the body. He also states that there is no such thing as

>the soul, and therefore there is nothing to reincarnate. He

>dismisses past life memories as time-independent telepathy.

>

>Now, if this is true, I'd dearly like to know! Enlightenment as a

>means of escaping moksha seems like a good idea, but when it's

>simply a bringing forward of something that's bound to happen in a

>few decades anyway, then it loses much of its importance....

 

 

I can't say much about enlightenment happening on the moment of death, because I

am not dead yet,

but enlightenment is definitely a death of the ego. And can feel quite forcibly

so as well.

 

I can see the author's point, the empty space that is the true mind / heart /

soul is empty and in itself not able to carry anything over from one existence

to the next, i.e. one set of bodies to the next. The question remains, how can

that which witnesses the changes of the mind and body somehow hold onto and

store these changes upon dissolution in death, when it itself is empty and has

no memory ?

 

One may guess that at the moment of death, the different bodies separate to

fully reveal the empty center around which they orbit, the true self. This

dissolution perhaps being the very process of death. When the layers have

separated, there is nothing but the self left, death being a full return/ full

unencumbered expression/ being of self.

 

One may also perhaps assume that even though this dissolution does happen and

the empty center is undressed to reveal the full state of emptiness of all,

expression is always arising, so soon, new bodies are made and condensed to

human bodies.

Kind of like the Golgi apparatus of the mammalian cell, there is always matter

coming in at one end of the apparatus, this matter being digested and taken into

the apparatus itself as simple building blocks (macromolecules) and energy. At

the other end, driven by the energy from the incoming material, new material is

being assembled from simple building blocks and pinched off from the apparatus,

to be exported out of the cell.

 

Perhaps. This is something to ponder on.

 

However, as you say, why work towards enlightenment if it will happen a few more

years down the line anyway ?

 

Maybe striveing to gain enlightenment is something which is not necessary to do,

no matter if enlightenment happens at the moment of death or not. Maybe

it's just another thought distraction.

 

 

Time independent telepathy or simply sensory signal intake independent of any

present human body, but linked to a geographic location where events played out

in the past is indeed possible.

 

Thanks for the interesting topic.

 

I am curious to what Dr. Trasi will say on these issues.

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.

 

 

 

 

 

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

Feel free to forward it to him!

thanks,

gill

> Hi gill,

>

> Your plain-speaking and down-to-earth message brought a smile to my face!

> Nitin and I have been in touch, and if you'd like I can forward your

> question to him if he's not a member of this list... If so, then, over to

> you, Nitin-ji!

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg

[Guest guest]

On 11/20/00 at 2:07 PM Gill Collingwood wrote:

 

ºMy copy of 'The Science of Enlightnment', by Nitin Trasi, turned up

ºthis morning. Whoever recommended it (I didn't save the original

ºemail), thank you.

º

ºThe one thing that strikes me most forcibly, is the author's belief

ºthat reincarnation is a myth. He states that upon dying,

ºenlightenment occurs (if it hasn't already), because the belief in

ºseparation is simply part of the body/mind complex, and therefore

ºdies with the body. He also states that there is no such thing as

ºthe soul, and therefore there is nothing to reincarnate. He

ºdismisses past life memories as time-independent telepathy.

 

Did he tell how he observed the above? It can't be through reincarnation.

Telepathy doesn't happen by itself: as can be observed there has to be some kind

of emotional bond and what would cause such a bond ?

 

º

ºNow, if this is true, I'd dearly like to know! Enlightenment as a

ºmeans of escaping moksha seems like a good idea, but when it's

ºsimply a bringing forward of something that's bound to happen in a

ºfew decades anyway, then it loses much of its importance....

º

ºViews, anyone? (Though I know my timing's off, it being

ºThanksgiving and all...)

ºgill

 

Enlightenment is rather ordinary, it is no more than "knowing who you are" -

that humans have to "regain" it could be called deplorable. I came across

writings, stating that "enlightenment" has to be dealt with swiftly,

moksha/nirvana bringing one to his/her sense again. The mind is the

troublemaker, it accumulates conditioning of a kind that perpetuates itself -

just make a table of "famous enlightened ones" to see that most of them

"attained" in youth - Sankara, Jnanadeva, Ramana, to mention a few.

Enlightenment can offer a total view on this self-perpetuating conditioning and

moksha/nirvana is the removal of its "root", the conditioning "I and mine" - a

removal, prerequisite for a happy life as without the sense of "I" there is no

recipient for suffering. Fear, guilt, shame and embarrassment have gone too and

there is no more veil to screen off feelings so the potential to enjoy

phenomenality is greater, not smaller. Recapping, I wouldn't invest in a book,

putting conclusions that cannot be obtained by perceptions

>From a nondual perspective, there is only "you and your perceptions" as all

fellow creatures are appearing as observations and this goes simultaneously for

all creatures. So harming a creature means immediately harming yourself but it

doesn't have to show immediately - there is a seeming delay that only depends on

the "level" of awareness. This feedback from one's actions is direct when fully

aware and "karma", "destiny" and "fate" are but synonyms for the

delayed version

of this feedback.

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi Gill,

 

this reminds me of the Bardo Thodol, aka The Tibetan Book of the Dead,

which if I understand it (probably not), suggests that this

enlightenment happens to everybody, early on after the death of the

physical body, but that most of us fear it due to conditioning, so we

bypass it for the comfort of a womb, which is also selected by our

conditioning, so that if are conditioned by past practice of fear,

greed, etc, we will choose a womb which leads to a life with more of

these negative emotions, and if we are conditioned by past practice of

love and well being, we will find a life with more of these. Only those

sufficiently clear of conditioning to recognize their true nature will

stop the game of rebirth and just reside in being the clear light. (so

like all really interesting either/or questions, the answer is both).

So, the conditioning that causes rebirth is nonexistant for those who

have seen through it, and exists for those for whom it exists. The fun

thing about the Bardo Thodol is that it suggests that even those who are

conditioned enough to miss it may be helped to see it by well-wishing

survivors if they take the time to constantly remind the recently

demised, and if that recently demised person is fortunate enough to hear

them and relax into clear understanding. I gather that Tibetans stay

around for up to 49 days after the death, whispering in their ears,

hoping to help them see the clear light? I'm hoping someone will be so

kind to me when I die.

As I interpret the Bardo Thodol (been awhile since I read it),

experiencing enlightenment while alive is good practice for recognizing

and maintaining it during the death process, at which time our

conditioning comes on really strong, tending to drive us into new lives

based on our past lives. There is a lot of detail about the various

opportunities to become free during the bardo between death and rebirth

and the way in which most of us miss most of those opportunities during

the process, and it's described quite poetically. I haven't read Nitin

Trasi's book, so I don't know what he says about this, and my

interpretation of the Bardo Thodol may not be standard, it's just what I

thought it was saying at the time I read it, several years ago.

 

Love, Mark

 

Gill Collingwood wrote:

> My copy of 'The Science of Enlightnment', by Nitin Trasi, turned up

> this morning. Whoever recommended it (I didn't save the original

> email), thank you.

>

> The one thing that strikes me most forcibly, is the author's belief

> that reincarnation is a myth. He states that upon dying,

> enlightenment occurs (if it hasn't already), because the belief in

> separation is simply part of the body/mind complex, and therefore

> dies with the body. He also states that there is no such thing as

> the soul, and therefore there is nothing to reincarnate. He

> dismisses past life memories as time-independent telepathy.

>

> Now, if this is true, I'd dearly like to know! Enlightenment as a

> means of escaping moksha seems like a good idea, but when it's

> simply a bringing forward of something that's bound to happen in a

> few decades anyway, then it loses much of its importance....

>

> Views, anyone? (Though I know my timing's off, it being

> Thanksgiving and all...)

> gill

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

 

I haven't read The Tibetan Book of the Dead, but I've read the

Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which is based on it to a certain

extent, and says pretty much the same thing as far as I can recall.

 

It sounds quite possible to me that this is what happens.

Dr Trasi takes a more 'scientific' view; he thinks that when you die,

that's it. The end, no afterlife or whatever, at least not for anything

one might call oneself. Of course, that part of us that is aware, is

Consciousness (with a capital C), and is in no way seperate,

simply returns to its source.

 

I prefer the Tibetan view...

 

Love,

gill

> Hi Gill,

>

> this reminds me of the Bardo Thodol, aka The Tibetan Book of the Dead,

> which if I understand it (probably not), suggests that this

> enlightenment happens to everybody, early on after the death of the

> physical body, but that most of us fear it due to conditioning, so we

> bypass it for the comfort of a womb, which is also selected by our

> conditioning, so that if are conditioned by past practice of fear,

> greed, etc, we will choose a womb which leads to a life with more of

> these negative emotions, and if we are conditioned by past practice of

> love and well being, we will find a life with more of these. Only those

> sufficiently clear of conditioning to recognize their true nature will

> stop the game of rebirth and just reside in being the clear light. (so

> like all really interesting either/or questions, the answer is both).

> So, the conditioning that causes rebirth is nonexistant for those who

> have seen through it, and exists for those for whom it exists. The fun

> thing about the Bardo Thodol is that it suggests that even those who are

> conditioned enough to miss it may be helped to see it by well-wishing

> survivors if they take the time to constantly remind the recently

> demised, and if that recently demised person is fortunate enough to hear

> them and relax into clear understanding. I gather that Tibetans stay

> around for up to 49 days after the death, whispering in their ears,

> hoping to help them see the clear light? I'm hoping someone will be so

> kind to me when I die.

> As I interpret the Bardo Thodol (been awhile since I read it),

> experiencing enlightenment while alive is good practice for recognizing

> and maintaining it during the death process, at which time our

> conditioning comes on really strong, tending to drive us into new lives

> based on our past lives. There is a lot of detail about the various

> opportunities to become free during the bardo between death and rebirth

> and the way in which most of us miss most of those opportunities during

> the process, and it's described quite poetically. I haven't read Nitin

> Trasi's book, so I don't know what he says about this, and my

> interpretation of the Bardo Thodol may not be standard, it's just what I

> thought it was saying at the time I read it, several years ago.

>

> Love, Mark

>

[Guest guest]

mark.otter writes:

>I gather that Tibetans stay

>around for up to 49 days after the death, whispering in their ears,

>hoping to help them see the clear light? I'm hoping someone will be so

>kind to me when I die.

 

Hey Mark-

 

I'd be happy to commit to do this for you for a week or two (however long

it takes you to merge with the light, or me to get bored).

 

All you have to do is leave me your boat.

 

Deal? ;-P

 

And hello to everyone on the list. I hope life is treating all of you

kindly.

Life has been really busy for me. I started a job last month as the

psychiatrist in a prison (working there a half day a week). Thus far, the

job has really kept me thankful for the fact that I have my freedom.

 

Part of me wants to jump up and shout to the inmates, "Hey, stop feeling

sorry for yourselves. You have food, shelter, and few responsibilities.

Many

people on the "outside" pay big bucks to go to retreats that offer what you

are experiencing. Why don't you use the time to get in touch with that spark

of divinity that's in you... or just to ask yourself who you are, then let

the

universe conspire to answer you."

 

But instead of saying this, I rely upon my training (i.e., I'm a chickenshit)

and I try to help them with their complaints, then gently suggest the

possible benefits of having an active spiritual life.

 

Namaste, my friends-

 

Mike

 

------------

The Present

 

Gazing at the phosphorescent screen,

Searching for the words

that will open my heart.

 

Assimilating wisdom of the ages.

Hoping to find the magic message

that will wake me from my fitful longing.

 

Searching, ever searching

for the light.

Hoping like a child the night before Christmas

to be able to open the present of my life

and get a glimpse of my soul.

 

But all the while having a sneaking suspicion

that the words I search for are the words I am writing.

That the present I so desparately search for

is the gift of this present moment

covered with the wrapping paper of my endless thoughts.

Tied with the ribbon of constant trying

and knotted with my doubt.

 

-Mike S.

[Guest guest]

On 11/20/00 at 9:30 PM Gill Collingwood wrote:

 

ºHi Jan,

º

ºThanks for responding!

 

My pleasure!

º

º> ºThe one thing that strikes me most forcibly, is the author's belief

º> ºthat reincarnation is a myth. He states that upon dying,

º> ºenlightenment occurs (if it hasn't already), because the belief in

º> ºseparation is simply part of the body/mind complex, and therefore

º> ºdies with the body. He also states that there is no such thing as

º> ºthe soul, and therefore there is nothing to reincarnate. He

º> ºdismisses past life memories as time-independent telepathy.

º>

º> Did he tell how he observed the above? It can't be through reincarnation.

º> Telepathy doesn't happen by itself: as can be observed there has

º> to be some kind of emotional bond and what would cause such a

º> bond ?

º

ºDr Trasi seems to think that, firstly, there is nothing - no soul, or

ºwhatever you like to call it - that survives death; and secondly that

ºreincarnation is incompatible with nonduality. I agree with you

ºabout the emotional bond. Dr Trasi doesn't go into details here, just

ºsays that as there is no separation, then of course telepathy ocurrs

ºnow and then...

 

Another perspective is to observe the phenomena involved - the term

"reincarnation" was invented because some can actually *feel* what can only be

described as "experience, not acquired in the present life" and the power of

identification makes that experience as something from another life. Apparently,

what survives death, are these experiences But I don't think, redefining an

individual life as "a bundle of experiences" will improve the quality of life -

such a view ignores the fact that individual life starts as a sentient creature

and in most cases will end as such - feeling determines what could be called

"quality of life" and any view, ignoring this could be called "crippled".

º

º> º

º> ºNow, if this is true, I'd dearly like to know! Enlightenment as a

º> ºmeans of escaping moksha seems like a good idea, but when it's

º> ºsimply a bringing forward of something that's bound to happen in a

º> ºfew decades anyway, then it loses much of its importance....

º> º

º> ºViews, anyone? (Though I know my timing's off, it being

º> ºThanksgiving and all...)

º> ºgill

º>

º> Enlightenment is rather ordinary, it is no more than "knowing who you are" -

º> that humans have to "regain" it could be called deplorable. I

º> came across writings, stating that "enlightenment" has to be

º> dealt with swiftly, moksha/nirvana bringing one to his/her sense

º> again.

º

ºI'm not sure I understand you here. I don't see how enlightenment

ºis something to be 'dealt with'?

 

The remark was in a context of joking - quite often, "after" enlightenment, the

mind is far more confused than "before", especially when followed by a powerful

K. awakening. The confusion however has its root in "I, you and world" and from

this perspective, one comes to his/her sense when that root has been cut - a

process that deals with itself and "faster is better"

 

º

º> The mind is the troublemaker, it accumulates conditioning > of a

º> kind that perpetuates itself - just make a table of "famous

º> enlightened ones" to see that most of them "attained" in youth -

º> Sankara, Jnanadeva, Ramana, to mention a few. Enlightenment

º> can offer a total view on this self-perpetuating conditioning and

º> moksha/nirvana is the removal of its "root", the conditioning "I >

º> and mine" - a removal, prerequisite for a happy life as without the

º> sense of "I" there is no recipient for suffering. Fear, guilt, shame

º> and embarrassment have gone too and there is no more veil to

º> screen off feelings so the potential to enjoy phenomenality is

º> greater, not smaller. Recapping, I wouldn't invest in a book,

º> putting conclusions that cannot be obtained by perceptions

º

ºHere, I'm happy to say, you and I and Dr Trasi are all in agreement!

º

º> From a nondual perspective, there is only "you and your > > >

ºperceptions" as all fellow creatures are appearing as

º> observations and this goes simultaneously for all creatures. So >

º> harming a creature means immediately harming yourself but it >

º> doesn't have to show immediately - there is a seeming delay that

º> only depends on the "level" of awareness. This feedback from >

º> one's actions is direct when fully aware and "karma", "destiny"

º> and "fate" are but synonyms for the delayed version of this

º> feedback.

º

ºHmmm... if there is no separation between me and the animal,

ºthen the animal's suffering *is* my suffering, and there is no need

ºfor karma. Karma seems to me to be part of duality. Dr Trasi

ºdismisses it completely (which makes sense; not much point

ºhaving karma without reincarnation, or vice versa). His viewpoint

ºseems to imply that one might as well behave badly, as long as

ºone's actions aren't going to be discovered... though he then goes

ºon to say that someone who is enlightened will act with

ºcompassion, anyway.

 

The issue of course is the "IF" - who is +aware+ that there is no separation

between me and the animal? Ramana for instance - one, fully awakened

There is something that could be called "behavioral matrix" and this will

determine how one's deeds will be auto-judged. For humans, this behavioral

matrix is hardwired on "caring and sharing" as humans are social animals but the

ego can veil it to a great extent and one might never discover its presence. So

one phase of life can be solitary but this is impossible when the proverbial

veil has dissolved. The seeming and charming paradox, teaching there are no

others to care for while building hospitals for them

º

ºAnyway, I think I still tend to believe in reincarnation and karma, on

ºthe whole, and I don't see that a belief in nonduality is incompatible

ºwith that.

 

Don't dismiss what is dear to you as "mere belief". Explaining human life by

quantum mechanics alone surely would be correct physically but it would it be

inspiring?

º

ºgill

º

º

º> Love,

º> Jan

º

º

º

º//

º

ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

º

ºTo from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

º www., and select the User Center link from the

menu bar

º on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

º between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

Dear Gill,

 

You wrote:

> The one thing that strikes me most forcibly, is the author's (Dr. Trasi)

belief

> that reincarnation is a myth.

 

And I agree on that but for different reasons. I go places (realms) as you

know and I have memories of historic episodes that obviously (as per

consensus) did not take place in my lifetime...

But reincarnation and past lives...?

No!

See lower down...

 

Akashic records, knowledge and memory can be accessed by all. But just like

when you have just bought a motorbike, you see many more motor bikes on the

road - through similar dynamics, 'that what you are into' lets you pick out

from 'all that ever is' just *that* what seems to be a lesson for you or

what gives you clarification. There is no private ownership of a past life.

In my practice, I have had 7 different clients who had been Cleopatra.

 

I myself have remembered to personally be (1) Jesus on the cross and dying

(well almost), as well as (2) being one of the bystanders at the

crucifixion, as well as (3) being the apostle John at that grievous moment

of the loss of our best friend. This occurred during a period of one week

during an intense Kundalini episode. I also can transmigrate horizontally so

to say into the lives of my current neighbours for example. (I do not do

that anymore, one life is enough, especially since i know that there is LIFE

ONE.)

 

Dr Trasi:

> ... He states that upon dying, ....

> ... dies with the body...

 

Death of a body is only what an non participating outside observer sees, the

observer cannot know what the subject of the passing - on - process goes

through.

> He states that upon dying,

> enlightenment occurs (if it hasn't already), because the belief in

> separation is simply part of the body/mind complex, and therefore

> dies with the body.

 

The enlightenment part of the 'process' is true for a limited number of

beings. It is a free choice thing. There is for most of us an 'elective'

waiting state after that moment-of-passing-on that onlookers call 'death'.

Most passing-on-beings take around four years before they can take care of

their offspring in a, let me call it, angelic way. Enlightenment can occur

immediately at the moment of passing on. It all depends on what the

subject's life was like, as well as what the subject's offspring's life is

like. Most decide compassionately (and one is free to make that decision) to

at least be a limited kind of 'bodhisattva in some non physical format'. It

is neat to see this in an offspring's aura.

> He also states that there is no such thing as the soul,

 

There is ONE, and 'each of what is' represents that divine core or source

co-creatively in the myriad of forms of *diversity*. This is the play, the

fun, the mystery and the miracle, the sat chit tapas ananda. ALL OF US are

accounting for the ONE.

Notice that I use the word 'diversity' instead of 'separate entities'. The

first expression having a more friendly feeling, the second expression could

indicate a certain torn-apart-ness.

>... there is nothing to reincarnate.

 

That is true, ONE does not need to.

> He dismisses past life memories as time-independent telepathy.

 

There is no independent time, no space on its own.

*Tele*pathy is not needed as there is in principle is no independent

distance.

Time and space are each simultaneous creations of each other, reciprocal

co-creators. We as ONE play that. We as ONE play Diversity. ONE plays ALL.

 

No matter what, and all the Nisargadattas of the world and their followers,

even Ken Wilber can say what they want, WE are accounting for all this as

ONE and ALL, integrity and variety.

|-------------------------------|

| WE

|

| - all that is -

|

| are individual divine countenances. |

| Each of us can say |

| "I AM"

|

|-------------------------------|

Do they have a problem with that? Have they experienced the beauty of the

mysterious other?

Finding out the reality of others who are not ourselves?

I used to be such a harsh advaita guru. It used to be all samsara to me.

Is all this still samsara to them?

Who are they, the individuals who so agree with each other?

One can only agree when there is that wonderful not-being-just-one.

If there is a neatness to being in agreement with each other, there must be

a neatness to 'not knowing each other at first'.

 

Separation is not a problem when one loves unconditionally,

Love is not: "We are all one."

Love is: "I love everyone."

Separation is a problem when one does not love or when one puts conditions

on love. That is samsara, conditional being. Diversity in time and space is

Love's creation. To have a problem with that is samsara. We have to get rid

of samsara, we have to get rid of the problem but not of All This.

 

Form is Void is Form is Void is Form is....

There is no qualitative difference between them, there is a quantitative.

That is the Wonder of Void and Form. They create each other as they love

each other.

Void abhors nothing, Void loves Form. Form abhors nothing, Form loves Void.

(An AHA maybe?)

 

By the way, if in your book, reincarnation is a workable concept, then I am

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva Incarnate, and so Gill are you.

 

Love,

Wim

 

PS,

I am working on a paragraph from Trasi's writing. He is actually a very

messy writer. Will send that post a little later.

[Guest guest]

>

> mark.otter writes:

>

> >I gather that Tibetans stay

> >around for up to 49 days after the death, whispering in their ears,

> >hoping to help them see the clear light? I'm hoping someone will be so

> >kind to me when I die.

>

Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) says human who died will be in the bardo state

for an AVERAGE of 49 days!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

, "Gill Collingwood" <gill@n...>

wrote:

> Hi Amanda!

>

> >

> > I can't say much about enlightenment happening on the moment of

death,

> > because I am not dead yet, but enlightenment is definitely a death

of the

> > ego. And can feel quite forcibly so as well.

>

> Agreed (though not from experience, I'm sad to say...)

 

Hi Gill & Amanda this is such an interesting discussion. I am going to

dive in!

 

Now I want to say .. after the death of the ego is there still life?

 

Still Consciousness?

 

Still existence?

 

Who is the Source?

 

How would that change after body death? Is there an adavantage to

becoming enlightened while in body? Could you call it being

enlightened if not done while in the body form? I don't think so. I

think being enlightened means carrying That awareness round while

Being in form. Form may be like the shadow of the light of formless

being. Being Self aware while 'wearing shadow':-) is a constantly

evolving & enlightening opportunity .. I don't think there's an

arrival. I think It's forever.

>

> > I can see the author's point, the empty space that is the true

mind /

> > heart / soul is empty and in itself not able to carry anything

over from

> > one existence to the next, i.e. one set of bodies to the next. The

> > question remains, how can that which witnesses the changes of the

mind and

> > body somehow hold onto and store these changes upon dissolution in

death,

> > when it itself is empty and has no memory ?

 

This is a fascinating question. I'd just like to explore a few ideas

here. Firstly everything comes from That empty space doesn't It? This

is what Vedic Science seems to purport.

 

That paradigm says that All form is born from that Source womb. We

can't feel/hear/sense memory There at zero point. But how is it that

order manifests from that death into the gap moment by moment as

everything is reborn afresh each moment?

 

Vedic Science informs us that everything is dying & being reborn

constantly from That Gap of total possibilities each & every moment as

the syllables of the Veda collapse into the Gap (Source & unified

field of creative intelligence) & reform anew all the time. this is

why people like Deepak Chopra & famous sages use the river analogy ..

that our body is like a constantly flowing river of information &

energy. If we keep scripting from past memory we bing ourselves in

suffering. If we can be aware of the constant change but not resist it

but go with the flow then we can experience the bliss of ever dawning.

 

Evolution is Nature's delight. To call It memory based is perhaps

placing human limitation upon what Is infinite & free. We sometimes

believe that consciousness, intelligence & creativity are by products

of the brain & body but are they the epiphenomenon of consciousness,

not matter? What could be the relationship between the form, &

formless intelligence? Are we formless born into form each moment? How

do we maintain our memory? if we are One at Source then we have vast

intelligence at our disposal. I guess we have to stop thinking of

ourselves as limited forms. If we are vast & free then what is our

capability?

 

How can we conceive of a vast creative intelligence that can form from

nothing, everything? What part do we play as one with That? How is

everything reborn every moment with perfect precision & order? How

does that interface of communication & interaction change when the

human form is left at body death? I don't know. I tend to believe that

consciousness was never bound to form but we need to wake to That here

in form for enlightenment.

>

> It's an interesting question... are thoughts simply a product of the

> brain? If there is such a thing as a 'mental body' (or something

> similar), does it survive death?

 

This is also an interesting question. Does Brahman have some kind of

nervous system & cosmic 'brain'? I believe Yogananda in his

translation of the Bhagavad Gita talks about even the spinal cord of

Brahman. Unimaginable to us.

>

> > One may guess that at the moment of death, the different bodies

separate

> > to fully reveal the empty center around which they orbit, the true

self.

> > This dissolution perhaps being the very process of death. When the

layers

> > have separated, there is nothing but the self left, death being a

full

> > return/ full unencumbered expression/ being of self.

> >

> > One may also perhaps assume that even though this dissolution does

happen

> > and the empty center is undressed to reveal the full state of

emptiness of

> > all, expression is always arising, so soon, new bodies are made

and

> > condensed to human bodies.

>

> Kind of ties in with what Mark said...

>

> Kind of like the Golgi apparatus of the

> > mammalian cell, there is always matter coming in at one end of the

> > apparatus, this matter being digested and taken into the apparatus

itself

> > as simple building blocks (macromolecules) and energy. At the

other end,

> > driven by the energy from the incoming material, new material is

being

> > assembled from simple building blocks and pinched off from the

apparatus,

> > to be exported out of the cell.

>

> The question that comes to my mind is, how much is broken down

> at death, and how much kind of sticks together? Obviously the

> body breaks down, but *is* the ego simply a product of the mind

> and body?

 

I found Yogananda's explanation that the body is simply inert matter

with no life of its own without the etheric life force behind it

rather interesting. I think it's etheric the term he used. I may have

got it wrong. You guys are more informed on these kinds of things. A

lot of it's gobbledegook to me. But anyway if it true that the body as

such has no life of its won without the animating force behind it (us)

then that etheric body could still be available after the inert matter

is left by the conscious Being who simply wore it as a vehicle.

>

> > Perhaps. This is something to ponder on.

> >

> > However, as you say, why work towards enlightenment if it will

happen a

> > few more years down the line anyway ?

> >

> > Maybe striveing to gain enlightenment is something which is not

necessary

> > to do, no matter if enlightenment happens at the moment of death

or not.

 

I think this is a difficult question. I honestly don't think we'd

choose to be born into form if there was no expansion in it. Isn't

enlightenment within form where we get to overcome ignorance & realise

we're It IN FORM. The challenge of a dense form hiding the light of

Self is immense with all the heavy conditioning we undergo here. Could

the joy of Being be expanded by such a large contrast? The bigger the

contrast, the bigger the joy?

 

It seems to me that the universe is in comunication with ItSelf. It

loves becoming conscious of ItSelf. This to me is the divine romance

of formless with form. None other than the same one.

>

> Well, one could view it as something which will happen sooner or

> later anyway. Even with reincarnation, it's going to happen in the

> end. :-)

 

I believe as the sages have stated that the goal is to realise It in

form, in human body. That's the challenge & great delight. I heard one

master say that the moon shines brightest on a dark night. What bliss

does the density of human form & conditioning afford the Being in such

a huge contrast? It urges to do so. We feel that urge as the call of

life. Evolution prods us to become Self aware.

>

> > Maybe it's just another thought distraction.

>

> Oh, definitely. But what isn't?

>

> > Time independent telepathy or simply sensory signal intake

independent of

> > any present human body, but linked to a geographic location where

events

> > played out in the past is indeed possible.

>

> Occam's razor... reincarnation is actually a simpler explanation for

> many reported cases. To my mind, anyway...

>

> > Thanks for the interesting topic.

> >

> > I am curious to what Dr. Trasi will say on these issues.

>

> Me too! I wonder whether he's on the list?

 

Nitin is at Advaitin list. I am sure he would love to see many

enjoying his book & exploring what he has to say. Perhaps somebody

could share this debate at advaitin? It would stir some remarkable

exchanges I'm sure.

>

> Love,

> Gill

 

Love,

 

Colette

[Guest guest]

You got it, Mike! (you do know that my boat is rather small, don't

you?) I've been asking for an upgrade, but you know how budgets are.

 

Love, Mark

ps words won't open your heart. know why? cause it's already open...

(enjoy it, and relax at your success... you ARE!!!) You'll be surprised

at the things you say when you say things spontaneously. YUM!

 

UnbrknCh8n wrote:

>

> mark.otter writes:

>

> >I gather that Tibetans stay

> >around for up to 49 days after the death, whispering in their ears,

> >hoping to help them see the clear light? I'm hoping someone will be

> so

> >kind to me when I die.

>

> Hey Mark-

>

> I'd be happy to commit to do this for you for a week or two (however

> long

> it takes you to merge with the light, or me to get bored).

>

> All you have to do is leave me your boat.

>

> Deal? ;-P

>

> And hello to everyone on the list. I hope life is treating all of you

>

> kindly.

> Life has been really busy for me. I started a job last month as the

> psychiatrist in a prison (working there a half day a week). Thus far,

> the

> job has really kept me thankful for the fact that I have my freedom.

>

> Part of me wants to jump up and shout to the inmates, "Hey, stop

> feeling

> sorry for yourselves. You have food, shelter, and few

> responsibilities.

> Many

> people on the "outside" pay big bucks to go to retreats that offer

> what you

> are experiencing. Why don't you use the time to get in touch with

> that spark

> of divinity that's in you... or just to ask yourself who you are, then

> let

> the

> universe conspire to answer you."

>

> But instead of saying this, I rely upon my training (i.e., I'm a

> chickenshit)

> and I try to help them with their complaints, then gently suggest the

> possible benefits of having an active spiritual life.

>

> Namaste, my friends-

>

> Mike

>

> ------------

> The Present

>

> Gazing at the phosphorescent screen,

> Searching for the words

> that will open my heart.

>

> Assimilating wisdom of the ages.

> Hoping to find the magic message

> that will wake me from my fitful longing.

>

> Searching, ever searching

> for the light.

> Hoping like a child the night before Christmas

> to be able to open the present of my life

> and get a glimpse of my soul.

>

> But all the while having a sneaking suspicion

> that the words I search for are the words I am writing.

> That the present I so desparately search for

> is the gift of this present moment

> covered with the wrapping paper of my endless thoughts.

> Tied with the ribbon of constant trying

> and knotted with my doubt.

>

> -Mike S.

>

> eGroups Sponsor

[click here]

>

> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

> Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link

> from the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change

> your subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that story Mike, it reminds of the fact that "THE" opportunity is

nearer than the skin but simultaneously, the insight this being so is missing. A

"better" retreat than prison, enabling one to "discipline" the mind, to learn

equanimity, to meditate and contemplate, is hardly possible. Not seeing it

perhaps has to do with the fact that without the illusion of "free choice" such

insight won't dawn. Anyway, your new job is quite a challenge.. Surely there

will be inmates, able to see "no choice" and make the best out of their stay...

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Dear jb

 

You wrote:

> Explaining human life by quantum mechanics alone

> surely would be correct physically but it would

> it be inspiring?

 

During many years of my thirteen year experiment of purposely wrecking

myself, I could hardly sleep. Sometimes up to 4 years in a row. The anxiety

and inner pain was so constant and deep. In order to not succumb to utter

panic, I read and read and read. Read a thematic encyclopedia from front to

end 3 times, read a 12 volume extensive history of the world twice, studied

quantum mechanics intensively and worked myself through the lecture material

(the red books) by Richard Feynmann. In addition I read anything about

subnuclear physics I could lay my hands on. I am not a reader who reads to

be able to quote, I read and digest until what I can take in is my own and

what I cannot take in, I easily discard as not for me. Eventually I came to

a rather comprehensive understanding of 'ALL THERE EVER WAS', then when K

struck I knew it all from within. 'THIS IS IT.'

'No questions no more, no answers no more.'

I don't think though that I would have gotten there without the Quantum

Mechanics, etc. It was by the end of the thirteen years pretty well the only

thing that inspired me to keep on going.

 

 

Love,

Wim

(Gone, gone, gone to the other shore, landed on the other shore.)

[Guest guest]

Dear Wim,

 

Sankara, Jnanadeva, Kabir, Rumi, just to name a few, "figured it out" without

quantum physics. What I meant was that an explanation, only based on quantum

physics, is unlikely to be inspiring as inspiration requires identifying. But

Jnanadeva was pretty "close" to quantum physics, mentioning that Shiva and

Shakti are the same, yet are different "enough" to perpetuate the play of life.

Returning to quantum physics, a discovery has been made that to a certain extend

could finish it off: the possibility that the charge of the electron can be

divided - if I remember well, it's about splitting orbitals. An interesting

field with funny axioms, for instance that electrons, orbiting a nucleus don't

radiate - which boils down to stating that an orbiting electron doesn't move.

Not really surprising quantum physics kept you "going".

 

Love,

Jan