Off topic -Doctor in the house?

[Guest guest]

Hi guys,

 

Is someone familiar with the speeding up bone healing by electric

stimulation? I know these devices to exist but can't find them on the

web as I don't know the proper name

My doubly fractured foot, a complicated fracture according to the doc,

will take many weeks to heal the "normal" way, hence the interest.

Eventually, the details (frequency, energy) will do as it can be

home-built. Oh, the hassle and dazzle of keeping the mortal frame

alive

 

Love,

Jan

Leisure forever and ever :>)

Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

 

I've been studying electromechanical transduction in bone since 1983,

and while this isn't quite the same as being a practicing orthopod

(that's what we call orthopaedic surgeons in the lab...not sure why.),

perhaps I may share my opinion (that's really what it boils down to at

times). Pulsed electromagnetic field therapy has been shown (although

there are disbelievers of course) to correct nonunions, bones that have

demonstrably failed to heal, BUT I don't know of any evidence that they

speed up normal healing. HOWEVER, ultrasound has been shown to speed up

normal healing, so I recommend finding out about that rather than

electric stimulation. There are probably several companies selling and

or renting out ultrasound stimulators. The one who's name is on the tip

of my tongue is Exogen, but I believe they were purchased 6 months or so

ago by Smith and Nephew. Hmmm. hang on a bit...

 

Okay, it looks like they are still in business. Here are some sites to

check out. The first is an Exogen FAQ:

http://www.exogen.com/faq5.htm

 

more questions and answers

http://www.exogen.com/patient.html

 

oh, duh, and of course you can just go to the main site

http://www.exogen.com/ and then browse. (sorry for the over zealous

direction...)

Making waves everyday... cute.

 

Here is a report from Tulane with technical info, including the cost

($3000 according to this report.)

http://www.som.tulane.edu/TMCinfo/monitor/nov95.Casting.html

 

Well, a search on ultrasound treatment of bone fractures with the Google

search engine will provide more reading than you want.

 

good luck!

 

Love, Mark

 

jb wrote:

> Hi guys, Is someone familiar with the speeding up bone healing by

> electric stimulation? I know these devices to exist but can't find

> them on the web as I don't know the proper name :(My doubly fractured

> foot, a complicated fracture according to the doc, will take many

> weeks to heal the "normal" way, hence the interest. Eventually, the

> details (frequency, energy) will do as it can be home-built. Oh, the

> hassle and dazzle of keeping the mortal frame alive Love,JanLeisure

> forever and ever :>)Jan

>

>

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> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

> Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link

> from the menu bar

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> your subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks a lot for the info Mark - reading the technical specifications, such a

device is easy to construct. What I didn't find is research data on the topic -

for instance how frequency and power are relating to the speed of healing. Lower

frequencies could in principle penetrate the plaster, the lower efficiency of

lower frequencies being compensated by a longer exposure - in my case 24 hours

would be possible, being confined to crutches. If you have data on that, I would

be much obliged - the ultrasonic transducers I could lay my hands on are used,

among others, in yachting but at much lower frequencies (several hundred KHz)

though high power, also used for wet-cleaning and available in the DIY circuit.

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Please do copy me

Antoine

carrea (AT) videotron (DOT) ca

-

Mark W. Otter

Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:20 PM

Re: Off topic -Doctor in the house?

Hi Jan, If you give me your snail mail address, I can send you a review paper on ultrasound

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

If you give me your snail mail address, I can send you a review paper

on ultrasound (I'm not sure it will address your questions, but it might

be fun to read. I have to admit, I've never read it.) My perception

of the field is that much like the electric stimulation field, only a few

frequency/power/dose(duration per day)/biological effect data points have

been investigated, and my limited understanding is that straightforward

relationships between these variables have not been identified. I

know more about the electrical case, and the story is incredibly complex.

(the mechanism by which either modality affects the bone cells is not known

either.) The research to find effective frequency/power/duration

sets is very expensive and time consuming. (To get FDA approval for

a device is a multimillion dollar enterprise. Not many folks have

the energy and determination to get the job done.) Anyway, I've written

a review paper on electromagnetic stimulation of bone healing and my colleague

Michael Hadjiargyrou wrote a companion paper on ultrasound stimulation

of bone healing and I'd be happy to send you a copy if you would give me

a mailing address. (off list would be fine.)

yours, Mark

jb wrote:

Thanks a lot for the info Mark - reading the

technical specifications, such a device is easy to construct. What I didn't

find is research data on the topic - for instance how frequency and power

are relating to the speed of healing. Lower frequencies could in principle

penetrate the plaster, the lower efficiency of lower frequencies being

compensated by a longer exposure - in my case 24 hours would be possible,

being confined to crutches. If you have data on that, I would be much obliged

- the ultrasonic transducers I could lay my hands on are used, among others,

in yachting but at much lower frequencies (several hundred KHz) though

high power, also used for wet-cleaning and available in the DIY circuit.

Love,

Jan

//

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home

is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

-

jb

; NondualitySalon

Is someone familiar with the speeding up bone healing by electric stimulation?

Jess:

Familiar with healing/energy devices.

Jan:

I know these devices to exist but can't find them on the web as I

don't know the proper name

My doubly fractured foot, a complicated fracture according to the doc,

will take many weeks to heal the "normal" way, hence the interest.

Jess:

These devices can be pretty pricey to buy and the possible delay in

you receiving the info. and then building could require a significant

amount of time.

Jan:

Eventually, the details (frequency, energy) will do as it can be

home-built. Oh, the hassle and dazzle of keeping the mortal frame

alive

Jess:

It is only a certain band (not low or high) frequencies that have been shown to be beneficial.

Jess:

I have a background in Oriental Medicine. In , the

kidneys rule the bones and a skilled practitioner would most likely

treat through herbal combinations to nurture the kidneys. Acupuncture

as well would be very beneficial and/or Qi Gong treatment from a

skilled practitioner. Do you have access toany of these?

And even more simple, would be either a homeopathic remedy called

Symphytum ~ which is homeopathically prepared comfrey,

or a tincture of comfrey leaves and/or root ~ and/or making a poultice

from comfrey and applying this to your feet, but ingesting as well

would be very beneficial and the most potent. The nickname for

comfrey is knit-bone or bone-set. Actually, some 'miraculous'

healings have been reported around the use of comfrey; nearly severed

fingers healed among them.

Love,

~jess

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// All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to

the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on

the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

On 11/28/00 at 9:26 PM Jessica White wrote:

Hi Jan,

-

jb

; NondualitySalon

Is someone familiar with the speeding up bone healing by electric stimulation?

Jess:

Familiar with healing/energy devices.

j: Great - if only you were living a bit closer....

Jan:

I know these devices to exist but can't find them on the web as I

don't know the proper name

My doubly fractured foot, a complicated fracture according to the doc,

will take many weeks to heal the "normal" way, hence the interest.

Jess:

These devices can be pretty pricey to buy and the possible delay in

you receiving the info. and then building could require a significant

amount of time.

j: Yes, I could figure that out through the info Mark has sent. But

building isn't difficult; I had a job in electronics engineering for

a magazine and one of the nicest designs was a small device one could

wear on the heart center (low frequency EM pulses). The frequency

could be chosen and many found relief from stress and similar

problems - according to the letters received. The commercial design

prevented buying for many but this DIY device was less than $20 (LOL)

and just as effective. Don't know the frequencies involved though...

Jan:

Eventually, the details (frequency, energy) will do as it can be

home-built. Oh, the hassle and dazzle of keeping the mortal frame

alive

Jess:

It is only a certain band (not low or high) frequencies that have been shown to be beneficial.

j: This is interesting - it shows that more is involved than putting

an artificial stress to the bones. A few experiments with EM fields

and passing current through the foot could be worthwhile though - no

choice.. If the small fields from the electric wiring in the house

already influences health, anything stronger than that will have an

effect too.

Jess:

I have a background in Oriental Medicine. In , the

kidneys rule the bones and a skilled practitioner would most likely

treat through herbal combinations to nurture the kidneys. Acupuncture

as well would be very beneficial and/or Qi Gong treatment from a

skilled practitioner. Do you have access toany of these?

No, in this part of the world, "at best" one consult a Reiki

practitioner. But with Reiki I am familiar myself.. The kidneys have

to be healthy though, eating mainly fruits - and their condition will

get better still when the fridge gets empty

And even more simple, would be either a homeopathic remedy called

Symphytum ~ which is homeopathically prepared comfrey,

or a tincture of comfrey leaves and/or root ~ and/or making a poultice

from comfrey and applying this to your feet, but ingesting as well

would be very beneficial and the most potent. The nickname for

comfrey is knit-bone or bone-set. Actually, some 'miraculous'

healings have been reported around the use of comfrey; nearly severed

fingers healed among them.

Love,

~jess

That sounds great - perhaps it is possible to get symphytum, but more

than tincture cannot be found here - natives sometimes nickname the

Canary Islands as a 2½ world-country...

Thanks a lot for the info Jess...

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

> jb wrote:

> more than tincture cannot be found here - natives sometimes

> nickname the Canary Islands as a 2½ world-country...

>

>

> Love,

> Jan

>

You could order dried comfrey leaf from a herb company, check out

 

http://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?product=X1870&cart_id=9182640.18\

701

 

I've ordered from before, they're reliable. It would take a while to get to the

Canaries though, Richters is in Canada, there must be European companies.

Comfrey is a

common herb, any well stocked natural foods/alternative medicine store should

have it.

If possible get the russian hybrid dried leaf. There was a huge patch of it

where I

used to live, it grows as an invasive weed. The chickens loved it.

 

love,

andrew

[Guest guest]

On 11/29/00 at 10:23 AM andrew macnab wrote:

 

[...]

º>

ºYou could order dried comfrey leaf from a herb company, check out

º

ºhttp://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?product=X1870&cart_id=9182640.1\

8701

º

ºI've ordered from before, they're reliable. It would take a while to get to the

ºCanaries though, Richters is in Canada, there must be European companies.

Comfrey is a

ºcommon herb, any well stocked natural foods/alternative medicine store should

have it.

ºIf possible get the russian hybrid dried leaf. There was a huge patch of it

where I

ºused to live, it grows as an invasive weed. The chickens loved it.

º

ºlove,

ºandrew

 

Thank you Andrew - on average, a delivery to the Canary Islands from the US

takes 6 weeks or more... thanks to the info, Christiana, Gene, Jess and Mark

provided, I'm already designing a variable frequency, constant duty cycle, high

power pulse generator to apply an EM field - the only alternative left.

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

I still say you are better off with ultrasound.

yours, Mark

jb wrote:

On 11/29/00 at 10:23 AM andrew macnab wrote:

[...]

º>

ºYou could order dried comfrey leaf from a herb company, check

out

º

ºhttp://www.richters.com/Web_store/web_store.cgi?product=X1870&cart_id=9182640.18701

º

ºI've ordered from before, they're reliable. It would take

a while to get to the

ºCanaries though, Richters is in Canada, there must be European

companies. Comfrey is a

ºcommon herb, any well stocked natural foods/alternative medicine

store should have it.

ºIf possible get the russian hybrid dried leaf. There was

a huge patch of it where I

ºused to live, it grows as an invasive weed. The chickens

loved it.

º

ºlove,

ºandrew

Thank you Andrew - on average, a delivery to the Canary Islands

from the US takes 6 weeks or more... thanks to the info, Christiana,

Gene, Jess and Mark provided, I'm already designing a variable frequency,

constant duty cycle, high power pulse generator to apply an EM field -

the only alternative left.

Love,

Jan

//

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home

is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmail64.gif [not stored]

[Guest guest]

Hi Jb

Try www.teslar.com. There is an email connection. Don't know that many

scientists would be willing to part with their trade secrets, ( I

understand the parts are a few $...) but I just spoke with Cortland

(owner), say I referred u. I told him your name is Jan (sorry, didn't

know the last) from Canary Islands. I briefly explained the situation,

and he said it would be ok for u to consult him. In the past I

purchased a # of these energy devices from them, Rife machine, Light

Beam generator, etc. Good Luck.

Love,

~jess

[Guest guest]

On 11/29/00 at 10:38 AM Mark Otter wrote: Hi Jan, I still say you are

better off with ultrasound. yours, Mark Hi Mark, It can't be denied

that even the human body has magnetic properties - which means by

applying strong EM pulses, at least in theory it will result in

vibration.One of the mechanisms involved in healing is an increase in

temperature (fever) and I wouldn't be surprised if applying ultrasound

does just that - an internal, local heating up, interpreted by the

tissue as fever. That would set the parameters like for instance

frequency and power. In general, I can't see an essential difference

between the various methods of healing - they are efforts to

administer a stimulus to damaged living tissue (a forced

"perception") and when successful, the tissue responds to it as to

accelerate its, in essence, self-healing property. Without the

self-healing property, healing would be impossible and by

administering the proper stimulus, even damaged nerve-tissue can

respond by repairing itself...

Love, Jan

[Guest guest]

Hi jb.

Do you have a personal email address?

~jess

-

jb

Wednesday, November 29, 2000 12:16 PM

Re: Off topic -Doctor in the house?

On 11/29/00 at 10:38 AM Mark Otter wrote: Hi Jan, I still say you are

better off with ultrasound. yours, Mark Hi Mark, It can't be denied

that even the human body has magnetic properties - which means by

applying strong EM pulses, at least in theory it will result in

vibration.One of the mechanisms involved in healing is an increase in

temperature (fever) and I wouldn't be surprised if applying ultrasound

does just that - an internal, local heating up, interpreted by the

tissue as fever. That would set the parameters like for instance

frequency and power. In general, I can't see an essential difference

between the various methods of healing - they are efforts to

administer a stimulus to damaged living tissue (a forced

"perception") and when successful, the tissue responds to it as to

accelerate its, in essence, self-healing property. Without the

self-healing property, healing would be impossible and by

administering the proper stimulus, even damaged nerve-tissue can

respond by repairing itself... Love,

Jan// All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to

the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on

the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

On 11/29/00 at 8:42 PM Jessica White wrote:

Hi jb.

Do you have a personal email address?

~jess

Yes, it is kvy9 (AT) lix (DOT) intercom.es

When in a post the E-mail address isn't clear, like jb (my initials),

you could try to right-click on it and on the list of choices that

appears, select "copy shortcut" or something similar. Then, you can

paste into the Email as the address but remove things like "".

At least, this is how it works with Calypso mail - it can't be much

different with Outlook Express 5.00 you are using.

Love,

Jan