Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:38:10 David Hodges wrote: > Part of the process of increased discrimination lies in de-identifying >with the objects of awareness. This is the self-inquiry method. I am not >this pain. I am not this awareness of pain. And so on. That would be one method of "self inquiry", the neti-neti approach. By cleaning away the sense impressions and seeing what you are left with, i.e. the focal point of attention, this focal point can become attentive to the act of being attentive. The self inquiry method advocated by Ramana Maharshi is even simpler and more direct. Here, there is not the conscious targeting and subsequent disidentification of sense impressions which dominates the neti-neti approach. When the question "Who am /I/" is asked mentally, not verbally, but as an action of the mind, attentiveness will /automatically/ be moved away from the sense impressions to the act of being attentive itself, with no need for /actively/ cleaning away of disidentifying with them. > The question which ties me in knots, when I think about it too much, is >similar to the one you raise. What is really going on when one is attentive >to awareness? How can I be aware of awareness? What is this faculty that >allows me to be aware of being aware? Is it, as one writer (whose name I >forget), "consciousness bending back on itself"? Is it a kind of schizoid >dissociation of a piece of awareness from itself? Jan has mentioned the impression that there is a "Big I" in some of his recent posts. This impression of "Big I" can sometimes also be seen to be what is attending to the attentiveness. Also, the Everything can also be the attender. > But back to awareness itself. It seems to be objective, without a >center, without time or duration. So, what would awareness be without the >objects of awareness? Would there be awareness if you removed the world and >the inner sensing? Isn't this what happens during dreamless sleep in many ways ? Love, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 Awareness - it is That to which objects appear. It cannot function thru the senses, since the senses are themselves part of the phantasmagoria of appearing objects. The person, the senses, the mind, etc. are not the conduits or media of experience. Rather, they are experienced. This can be tested at any moment - take vision for an example -- Look at a patch of sky. Is it in your experience that your eye sees? Or is there just the appearance of visual phenomena? Is there anything in the visual field that indicates that an eye sees it? Oddly enough, however, the eyes and ears and other parts of the body do appear as sensations (i.e., you can touch your eye, see your finger, hear your tongue clucking, etc.) These sensations, and the objects they imply, are mere appearances. And appearances cannot do anything, such as see objects, know objects, or be the subject of appearing objects. Love, --Greg At 05:53 PM 12/6/00 -0000, J B wrote: >>>> Hi I have a question: What is awareness ?.. Not just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like electricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your true nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou art That',.. ...but can you practically, point it to me ? Does it function thru the senses ? When there is a motive to be attentive to something,.. like listening after a sound of a car, when waiting for somebody to arrive, there is a focussed, predetermined direction set by thought. Or, if I try to practice awareness, there is also a narrowing thought- motivation to become 'enlightened', etc. But when, a car is passing down the street, or some bird sings, or have an itch, or thought/feeling, there is an instantaneous perception of that, in radar-like fashion, and it happens of itsself, without any will or personal motive. Is _this one..'it', or something else ? And if so, is it simply a question of being present to that /acknowledging its fact/functioning ? Have a good day, jb. eGroups Sponsor <http://rd./M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S=17000609 55:N/A=466331/?http://www.>Click Here! <//>/subs cribe/ All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. <<<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 How? At 11:18 AM 12/6/00 -0800, Wim Borsboom wrote: >>>> dear jb, so you have a question... don't love, wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 Hi JB, Awareness - it is That to which objects appear. It is global and cannot function thru the senses, since the senses are themselves part of the phantasmagoria of appearing objects. The person, the senses, the mind, etc. are not the conduits or media of experience. Rather, they are experienced. This can be tested at any moment - take vision for an example -- Look at a patch of sky. Is it in your experience that your eye sees? Or is there just the appearance of visual phenomena? Is there anything in the visual field that indicates that an eye sees it? Oddly enough, however, the eyes and ears and other parts of the body do appear as sensations (i.e., you can touch your eye, see your finger, hear your tongue clucking, etc.) These sensations, and the objects they imply, are mere appearances. And appearances cannot do anything, such as see objects, know objects, or be the subject of appearing objects. Love, --Greg At 05:53 PM 12/6/00 -0000, J B wrote: >>>> Hi I have a question: What is awareness ?.. Not just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like electricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your true nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou art That',.. ...but can you practically, point it to me ? Does it function thru the senses ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 Namaste All, Awareness can be helped by overcoming the little self's desires/attachments. For a desireless one is the SELF! Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 On 12/6/00 at 5:53 PM J B wrote: ºHi º ºI have a question: ºWhat is awareness ?.. ºNot just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like ºelectricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your ºtrue nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou ºart That',.. º..but can you practically, point it to me ? An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever happens". All perception is witnessed, arising and subsiding emotions are witnessed. Self-awareness could be called a witness, witnessing but itself. º ºDoes it function thru the senses ? There is but awareness - awareness can become aware of itself through the senses as the witness of events. º ºWhen there is a motive to be attentive to something,.. like listening ºafter a sound of a car, when waiting for somebody to arrive, there is ºa focussed, predetermined direction set by thought. ºOr, if I try to practice awareness, there is also a narrowing thought- ºmotivation to become 'enlightened', etc. Awareness cannot be practiced because there is only Awareness: what can be practiced is non-involvement (witness-mode), self-enquiry, self-surrender etc. - all practices to gradually silence the ongoing frenzy of the mind - how many of these thoughts for instance are centered on "I"? When the quieting of the mind exceeds a certain threshold, seemingly sudden, Self-awareness will shine spontaneously. º ºBut when, a car is passing down the street, or some bird sings, or ºhave an itch, or thought/feeling, there is an instantaneous ºperception of that, in radar-like fashion, and it happens of itsself, ºwithout any will or personal motive. Yes, spontaneity reigns and the play of perception and response appears to work on its own accord. Of course this is always the case and realizing that this is so, results in happiness ºIs _this one..'it', or something else ? Not something else - Awareness is ultimate simplicity - so simple that it is touching. ºAnd if so, is it simply a question of being present to ºthat /acknowledging its fact/functioning ? The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever practice "works". Love, Jan ºHave a good day, ºjb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 Hello: > On 12/6/00 at 5:53 PM J B wrote: > > ºHi > º > ºI have a question: > ºWhat is awareness ?.. > ºNot just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like > ºelectricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your > ºtrue nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou > ºart That',.. > º..but can you practically, point it to me ? > > An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever happens". All perception is witnessed, arising and subsiding emotions are witnessed. Self-awareness could be called a witness, witnessing but itself. Jan, I'm glad that you posted the above. Often we look for replication of the experiences or realizations that are achieved during meditation or kirtan, etc. Then when life itself presents the opportunity to achieve the same awareness one gets caught up in the emotions and events forgetting to be the witness. Lately it appears to me that if one does not put into practice what is learned through various philosophies and meditative experiences during those times when life itself is the "practice" there can be no awareness except that of an intellectual nature. Another one of those "it's so simple" until one gets caught up in the mud puddle. > > The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever practice "works". It certainly does "work" and at a certain point becomes the only thing that does "work". Love, Linda > Love, > Jan > > ºHave a good day, > ºjb. > > > > > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Dear jbYou wrote:> I have a question:> What is awareness ?..> Not just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies> ('like electricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations> like 'it is your true nature/Self or super-self/God and> there is nothing else, Thou art That',..> ..but can you practically, point it to me ?> Does it function thru the senses ?I wrote:> so you have a question...> don'tYou wrote:> How?Wim again:Another question!!!!Come to your senses.Return to your senses.Your intuition, your instinct is right.Jb, come to your senses.I mean senses: hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, seeing.(There is more to senses of course, my God, I am clairvoyant myself. And there is the Buddhist view of the skandhas, but let's just keep this simple.) So, I mean the auditory, gustatory, tactile or cutaneous, olfactory andvisual senses.Do not just consider them, do not just imagine or visualize them... use them.Your question will disappear...I actually mean:. lick someone with your tongue and taste the other.. put your ear to somebody' s chest and hear the other.. stroke someone with your fingertips and your other touch sensitive body parts and feel the other.. put your nose to someone's neck, smell hair, skin, smell the other.. gaze upon the skin, the curves, the finest fuzz, look into the eyes and see the other.At this point you are supposed to stand up and meet somebody physically,not just smelling the roses figuratively... do it.When you want to know about awareness... do this first.Do not read any further... stop here and... start again as a baby and use your senses, that is all you have, all you can go by.Do not go for explanations of 'the third person'.Re-be your body and re-discover another body sense-ibly.Go, going, gone... gate, gate, gate...Gone to the other being...*******OK, now that you are back...Oops, do not read on if you did not go away... only come back when you have come to your senses through meeting someone else bodily. ******** OK, you are back now. I know others will say other things. Let them have it, it may be uselessdribble, it may be advanced stuff that you will discover yourself in duetime.All of us had to 'know this, that or the other thing' or 'be aware ofthis, that or the other thing' prematurely.As I have written before, awareness or consciousness is a kind ofastigmatism or double vision that has been turned into somethingwonderful because all of us have it, it has become the norm. Talk aboutturning a disadvantage into an advantage! Stress, pressure, disruption,violation, manipulation, molestation, fear, accident, mal-treatment,etc. cause it.When 'I' turns into 'me' (the dative case in Latin), reflection, recoil,self awareness, becoming-self-conscious, self doubt and questioning arethe result. 'I' and 'me' do not exactly overlap, it is a botched up colour separation job, remember the way cartoons used to look in Saturday's paper colour comics section! Awareness is a symptom of a disturbed or disturbing human - when 'I and YOU' have not connected but keep or create distance through under-use of our senses or abuse and manipulation. We did not become more than animals, we became lesser ones. (We even do it to animals now, look at Jan and his cat and mice. Prettysoon they will need a shrink as much as Jan does, who has just admittedthat he is now manic... Oh no, that was Mark, sorry Jan :-)As babies and toddlers we were interrupted and disturbed too often inour play. None of us have been able to really work our sensesunhampered to the fullest. We have all been given interpretations,expectations, second hand impressions and descriptions of the world.Of course we are confused. Funny that most of our memories are fromtimes after we first became aware, conscious or self conscious. I still remember those moments. I went through that exact sequence: awareness, consciousness, self consciousness.We were prematurely bombarded with other people's inability to makesense of their own stuff because they were also disturbed and they alsoinherited someone else's second hand world.Make 'sense' of everything yourself.Turn away from everyone who questions you or gives you answers.(Turn away from me if I give you an answer... )Oh, you are still there :-) > What *is* awareness?..you asked. Awareness IS not!No, you could not touch it, taste it, smell it, see it, hear it. You see, awareness is not something that 'exists'. There is no answer toyour question, it is not a proper question. That is why we will foreverdiscuss it and never get anywhere.The brain is not a sense organ, it only stores data from the senses, keeps count of them and tracks linkages. The brain is an subservient organ, it does not direct or coordinate, it only keeps track of occurrences, directions and coordinates, it is not at all like a gland, the brain does not *do* a thing.The mind at best is a trustworthy director of the brain, is has however no direct connection to the senses. To the mind nothing makes sense, it cannot because it senses not. (I know I differ here from some Buddhist psychology, but I stand by it.)The mind is not an organ of sense, it is not even an organ. The mind actually has no physical powers. It can only 'label' perceptions with qualifiers that also are fed to it from the outside through the senses. Those qualifiers are usually not too subtle, often very black and whiteindeed. In this, our current society of limited and controlled sensory input the mind cannot seem to 'do' anything more than labelling under two main headings: stimulus and passivity. Human physical dynamics and functionalities are controlled or ordered that way in our consumer society.At worst, the mind thinks - meaning that it assumes that its labelling has a systematic, analytical, controlling and steering effect (cybernetics, the art of steering, informatics). When it overly labels for excitement and stimulus - typical for this society -a seemingly overwhelming mentality can engulf the body, often at the cost of the body... but not really... this is what the mind thinks.When the mind overly labels for passivity, the result of a too accepting consumer attitude - also typical for our society - a seemingly apathetic and stifling mentality can take hold of the body, this also at the cost of the body... but again, so it seems... that is what the mind thinks. It is not what happens in physical reality, when that is about to happen the body generates all kinds of messages to the brain to stop the mental trickery... this then leads to mental depression. A good thing.The body depresses the mind so as to force the human to integrate itself again. I sometimes consider the brain a tumour, some overgrowththat gains in self importance by identifying with its symbolic contents while putting itself ahead of the senses that collect the data, while putting itself ahead of the data collected by the senses, while putting itself ahead of that what is being sensed.Thinking that it actually is the creator of its own contents. The labels are moral and cultural agreements, 'per se' labels are nothing. Labels are not the contents of the box, data in the folder. Data are not even what they are a symbolic copy of.When the mind has turned into the censor, judging perceptions and storing them under labelled categories, allowing some, not allowing others, it has overstepped its illusory bounds.The mind then thinks it can actually direct the senses. If it thinks it rejects, which it can not, it can only store certain data into a box of "rejects". Once the mind has put data in the reject box it thinks it has gotten rid ofthem... no it has only labelled them... The mind creates the illusion thatit can decide what is and what is not real... what exists and what not. Reality can not be influenced by the mind. The mind tells you that itcan and you may or may not believe it. The mind even tells you that you are free to believe what you want. The mind even allows for such 'wishy-washyness'. As in, "Everybody has their own truth." Reality, you don't have to believe in, you sense it with your senses, it is directly tangible. Illusion always wants you to believe. Reality dispenses with belief.Love, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Greg and all the others, thanks for your replies. Greg's pointer, is something I can suddenly somehow relate to. Are you saying Greg, that Anything experienceable/perceived are the Objects (including the senses) while Awareness is not an object but an ultimate Subject ? If that is so, and that according to the saying 'I am That'..that means one can only Be that.. correct ? Well, since awareness is not an object, how can one be conscious of this .. that I am awareness,.. and if one canNot then what is the point of all this 'you are that' etc. and Who sees and is able to say it ? I know that 'stop asking questions' might be a wise advice,.. I do not know,.. but I cannot live either on 'thou art That.. it is closer than the closest.. your true nature etc'.. otherwise I merely settle for far-out slogans and feel 'great'... jb. , Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote: > Awareness - it is That to which objects appear. It cannot function thru > the senses, since the senses are themselves part of the phantasmagoria of > appearing objects. The person, the senses, the mind, etc. are not the > conduits or media of experience. Rather, they are experienced. This can > be tested at any moment - take vision for an example -- Look at a patch of > sky. Is it in your experience that your eye sees? Or is there just the > appearance of visual phenomena? Is there anything in the visual field that > indicates that an eye sees it? > > Oddly enough, however, the eyes and ears and other parts of the body do > appear as sensations (i.e., you can touch your eye, see your finger, hear > your tongue clucking, etc.) These sensations, and the objects they imply, > are mere appearances. > > And appearances cannot do anything, such as see objects, know objects, or > be the subject of appearing objects. > > Love, > > --Greg > > At 05:53 PM 12/6/00 -0000, J B wrote: > >>>> > Hi > > I have a question: > What is awareness ?.. > Not just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like > electricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your > true nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou > art That',.. > ..but can you practically, point it to me ? > > Does it function thru the senses ? > > When there is a motive to be attentive to something,.. like listening > after a sound of a car, when waiting for somebody to arrive, there is > a focussed, predetermined direction set by thought. > Or, if I try to practice awareness, there is also a narrowing thought- > motivation to become 'enlightened', etc. > > But when, a car is passing down the street, or some bird sings, or > have an itch, or thought/feeling, there is an instantaneous > perception of that, in radar-like fashion, and it happens of itsself, > without any will or personal motive. > Is _this one..'it', or something else ? > And if so, is it simply a question of being present to > that /acknowledging its fact/functioning ? > > Have a good day, > jb. > > > eGroups Sponsor > <http://rd./M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S=17 000609 > 55:N/A=466331/?http://www.>Click Here! > > <//>http://www.onelist.co m/subs > cribe/ > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self- Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > <<<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 On 12/6/00 at 11:34 PM LC wrote: ºHello: º[...] º> An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever happens". ºAll perception is witnessed, arising and subsiding emotions are witnessed. ºSelf-awareness could be called a witness, witnessing but itself. º ºJan, I'm glad that you posted the above. Often we look for replication of ºthe experiences or realizations that are achieved during meditation or ºkirtan, etc. Then when life itself presents the opportunity to achieve the ºsame awareness one gets caught up in the emotions and events forgetting to ºbe the witness. Lately it appears to me that if one does not put into ºpractice what is learned through various philosophies and meditative ºexperiences during those times when life itself is the "practice" there can ºbe no awareness except that of an intellectual nature. Another one of those º"it's so simple" until one gets caught up in the mud puddle. Linda, I'm glad you responded with the above. Because, I didn't have something like a formal practice or anything that could be compared to it, so it is difficult to imagine there are some, experiencing "yuck" the moment, "normal, all day life" is entered, and experiencing bliss in their sanctuary with the lights down low, "spiritual" music and incense burning. Not meant as an offense, but as a warning, that it is so easy to create a duality where there isn't one. Any "practice" that creates such a duality, whether hatha yoga or self-enquiry, could be called an obstacle, because the witness is always the witness, irrespective of conditions. Admitted, there can be something like an initial phase called "practice", its only purpose is to make itself superfluous swiftly, as there is no practice but life itself. º º> > The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever practice º"works". º ºIt certainly does "work" and at a certain point becomes the only thing that ºdoes "work". Yes, because the witness isn't involved in anything, it is a shortcut through many layers of conditioning. º ºLove, ºLinda º> Love, º> Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Thanks Jan, I know that the mind can ask endless questions, but I feel in this case, my questions are not just a merry-go-round in their own secluded universe, but rather pointing to something that I may not see so clearly. I am not looking for definitions, but you have mentioned 'An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever happens".' It's been many years ago I've first read about the 'witness' so the term is not new to me. However, I think my understnding of it (for what it actually Is in actual living) went wrong, due to my interpretations of it and resulting in: a willful Practice based on a concept, a attitude of distancing 'myself' from thoughts/feelings (practicing 'detachement' With a motive obviously) etc. If so, then witnessing is not some volitional act, is it ? If not, then it must be something of its own, already functioning. And yet, though it might be functioning on its own without the I's will, _Some_ kind of contribution from 'me' it is apparently pointed as necessary (by the free-ones)..if something else than waking-Sleep should occur. _What_ is that Contribution, that I would have to 'do' and yet free of will/intention ? Have a good day jb. ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: > On 12/6/00 at 5:53 PM J B wrote: > > ºHi > º > ºI have a question: > ºWhat is awareness ?.. > ºNot just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like > ºelectricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is your > ºtrue nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou > ºart That',.. > º..but can you practically, point it to me ? > > An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever happens". All perception is witnessed, arising and subsiding emotions are witnessed. Self-awareness could be called a witness, witnessing but itself. > º > ºDoes it function thru the senses ? > > There is but awareness - awareness can become aware of itself through the senses as the witness of events. > º > ºWhen there is a motive to be attentive to something,.. like listening > ºafter a sound of a car, when waiting for somebody to arrive, there is > ºa focussed, predetermined direction set by thought. > ºOr, if I try to practice awareness, there is also a narrowing thought- > ºmotivation to become 'enlightened', etc. > > Awareness cannot be practiced because there is only Awareness: what can be practiced is non-involvement (witness-mode), self-enquiry, self-surrender etc. - all practices to gradually silence the ongoing frenzy of the mind - how many of these thoughts for instance are centered on "I"? When the quieting of the mind exceeds a certain threshold, seemingly sudden, Self-awareness will shine spontaneously. > º > ºBut when, a car is passing down the street, or some bird sings, or > ºhave an itch, or thought/feeling, there is an instantaneous > ºperception of that, in radar-like fashion, and it happens of itsself, > ºwithout any will or personal motive. > > Yes, spontaneity reigns and the play of perception and response appears to work on its own accord. Of course this is always the case and realizing that this is so, results in happiness > > ºIs _this one..'it', or something else ? > > Not something else - Awareness is ultimate simplicity - so simple that it is touching. > > ºAnd if so, is it simply a question of being present to > ºthat /acknowledging its fact/functioning ? > > The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever practice "works". > > Love, > Jan > > ºHave a good day, > ºjb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 On 12/7/00 at 11:40 AM J B wrote: ºThanks Jan, You're welcome... ºI know that the mind can ask endless questions, but I feel in this ºcase, my questions are not just a merry-go-round in their own ºsecluded universe, but rather pointing to something that I may not ºsee so clearly. º ºI am not looking for definitions, but you have mentioned º'An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever ºhappens".' ºIt's been many years ago I've first read about the 'witness' so the ºterm is not new to me. ºHowever, I think my understnding of it (for what it actually Is in ºactual living) went wrong, due to my interpretations of it and ºresulting in: ºa willful Practice based on a concept, a attitude of ºdistancing 'myself' from thoughts/feelings (practicing 'detachement' ºWith a motive obviously) etc. Yes, that is perfectly clear. What cannot be understood, is that under all circumstances, "whatever is taking place" does so on its own accord. Distancing oneself for instance from feelings could happen, when engaged in family relationships. If the feeling of distancing arises, it means that there was involvement with "whatever is taking place" and that is the contrary of *witness*. Involvement shows in some kind of "added response", and it doesn't make a difference whether with detaching from "whatever is taking place" or attaching to that. Any practice invariably will give rise to expectation of "gaining" something whereas nothing can be expected. º ºIf so, then witnessing is not some volitional act, is it ? ºIf not, then it must be something of its own, already functioning. ºAnd yet, though it might be functioning on its own without the I's ºwill, _Some_ kind of contribution from 'me' it is apparently pointed ºas necessary (by the free-ones)..if something else than waking-Sleep ºshould occur. Right, witnessing isn't volitional - it is already taking place. º º_What_ is that Contribution, that I would have to 'do' and yet free ºof will/intention ? What is preventing "witnessing being natural", is the "added response", the accumulated conditioning, starting to be acquired in early childhood - feelings of extreme dislike and grief most likely being the culprit. These feelings evoked responses to avoid/escape/prevent the unpleasant experiences with all possible means - resulting in irrational behavior that carries on through adulthood. There isn't an alternative but having put an end to these avoid/escape/prevent responses, for instance by reflecting on them when they arise - in this respect, perhaps it is clear that for many, detachment (the escape response) equals distancing. Love, Jan ºHave a good day ºjb. º¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ º º , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote: º> On 12/6/00 at 5:53 PM J B wrote: º> º> ºHi º> º º> ºI have a question: º> ºWhat is awareness ?.. º> ºNot just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies ('like º> ºelectricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations like 'it is ºyour º> ºtrue nature/Self or super-self/God and there is nothing else, Thou º> ºart That',.. º> º..but can you practically, point it to me ? º> º> An easy pointer is that awareness is the witness of "whatever ºhappens". All perception is witnessed, arising and subsiding emotions ºare witnessed. Self-awareness could be called a witness, witnessing ºbut itself. º> º º> ºDoes it function thru the senses ? º> º> There is but awareness - awareness can become aware of itself ºthrough the senses as the witness of events. º> º º> ºWhen there is a motive to be attentive to something,.. like ºlistening º> ºafter a sound of a car, when waiting for somebody to arrive, there ºis º> ºa focussed, predetermined direction set by thought. º> ºOr, if I try to practice awareness, there is also a narrowing ºthought- º> ºmotivation to become 'enlightened', etc. º> º> Awareness cannot be practiced because there is only Awareness: what ºcan be practiced is non-involvement (witness-mode), self-enquiry, ºself-surrender etc. - all practices to gradually silence the ongoing ºfrenzy of the mind - how many of these thoughts for instance are ºcentered on "I"? When the quieting of the mind exceeds a certain ºthreshold, seemingly sudden, Self-awareness will shine spontaneously. º> º º> ºBut when, a car is passing down the street, or some bird sings, or º> ºhave an itch, or thought/feeling, there is an instantaneous º> ºperception of that, in radar-like fashion, and it happens of ºitsself, º> ºwithout any will or personal motive. º> º> Yes, spontaneity reigns and the play of perception and response ºappears to work on its own accord. Of course this is always the case ºand realizing that this is so, results in happiness º> º> ºIs _this one..'it', or something else ? º> º> Not something else - Awareness is ultimate simplicity - so simple ºthat it is touching. º> º> ºAnd if so, is it simply a question of being present to º> ºthat /acknowledging its fact/functioning ? º> º> The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever ºpractice "works". º> º> Love, º> Jan º> º> ºHave a good day, º> ºjb. º º º º// º ºAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. º ºTo from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at º www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar º on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription º between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Thanks Wim for the time you used on the lenghty reply. You point to much to look into, and yet I have a feeling it points to just one simple thing/picture. Your advice: do not ask questions, it does seem to 'make sense' since one might get contradictory answers,.. and then what ?.. Like for example, while you emphasise the presence to/being with the Senses, another said that the senses are just objects and Awareness does not function thru them. There might not be any contradiction here, but right now, it seems so to me. I was wondering sometimes about all this questioning like 'what is life all about ?'.. and felt it as a wrong question. To 'know' what 'life is all about', one would simply have to Live Life, it seems.. So, does one/I _Live Life_ (as it is) ?... This might be a good and simple 'awakener' ... jb. , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear jb > > You wrote: > > I have a question: > > What is awareness ?.. > > Not just a conceptual/mystifying definition or similies > > ('like electricity'..) or cryptic statements/verbalizations > > like 'it is your true nature/Self or super-self/God and > > there is nothing else, Thou art That',.. > > ..but can you practically, point it to me ? > > > Does it function thru the senses ? > > I wrote: > > so you have a question... > > don't > > You wrote: > > How? > > Wim again: > > Another question!!!! > > Come to your senses. > Return to your senses. > Your intuition, your instinct is right. > Jb, come to your senses. > > I mean senses: hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, seeing. > (There is more to senses of course, my God, I am clairvoyant myself. And > there is the Buddhist view of the skandhas, but let's just keep this simple.) > > So, I mean the auditory, gustatory, tactile or cutaneous, olfactory and > visual senses. > Do not just consider them, do not just imagine or visualize them... use them. > Your question will disappear... > > I actually mean: > . lick someone with your tongue and taste the other. > . put your ear to somebody' s chest and hear the other. > . stroke someone with your fingertips and your other touch sensitive > body parts and feel the other. > . put your nose to someone's neck, smell hair, skin, smell the other. > . gaze upon the skin, the curves, the finest fuzz, look into the eyes > and see the other. > > At this point you are supposed to stand up and meet somebody physically, > not just smelling the roses figuratively... do it. > When you want to know about awareness... do this first. > Do not read any further... stop here and... start again as a baby and use > your senses, that is all you have, all you can go by. > Do not go for explanations of 'the third person'. > Re-be your body and re-discover another body sense-ibly. > > Go, going, gone... gate, gate, gate... > Gone to the other being... > > ******* > > OK, now that you are back... > Oops, do not read on if you did not go away... only come back when > you have come to your senses through meeting someone else bodily. > > ******** > > OK, you are back now. > I know others will say other things. Let them have it, it may be useless > dribble, it may be advanced stuff that you will discover yourself in due > time. > > All of us had to 'know this, that or the other thing' or 'be aware of > this, that or the other thing' prematurely. > As I have written before, awareness or consciousness is a kind of > astigmatism or double vision that has been turned into something > wonderful because all of us have it, it has become the norm. Talk about > turning a disadvantage into an advantage! Stress, pressure, disruption, > violation, manipulation, molestation, fear, accident, mal-treatment, > etc. cause it. > When 'I' turns into 'me' (the dative case in Latin), reflection, recoil, > self awareness, becoming-self-conscious, self doubt and questioning are > the result. 'I' and 'me' do not exactly overlap, it is a botched up colour > separation job, remember the way cartoons used to look in Saturday's > paper colour comics section! > > Awareness is a symptom of a disturbed or disturbing human - when > 'I and YOU' have not connected but keep or create distance through > under-use of our senses or abuse and manipulation. > > We did not become more than animals, we became lesser ones. > > (We even do it to animals now, look at Jan and his cat and mice. Pretty > soon they will need a shrink as much as Jan does, who has just admitted > that he is now manic... Oh no, that was Mark, sorry Jan :-) > > As babies and toddlers we were interrupted and disturbed too often in > our play. None of us have been able to really work our senses > unhampered to the fullest. We have all been given interpretations, > expectations, second hand impressions and descriptions of the world. > Of course we are confused. Funny that most of our memories are from > times after we first became aware, conscious or self conscious. > I still remember those moments. I went through that exact sequence: > awareness, consciousness, self consciousness. > > We were prematurely bombarded with other people's inability to make > sense of their own stuff because they were also disturbed and they also > inherited someone else's second hand world. > > Make 'sense' of everything yourself. > Turn away from everyone who questions you or gives you answers. > (Turn away from me if I give you an answer... ) > > Oh, you are still there :-) > > > > What *is* awareness?.. > you asked. > > Awareness IS not! > No, you could not touch it, taste it, smell it, see it, hear it. > You see, awareness is not something that 'exists'. There is no answer to > your question, it is not a proper question. That is why we will forever > discuss it and never get anywhere. > > The brain is not a sense organ, it only stores data from the senses, keeps > count of them and tracks linkages. The brain is an subservient organ, > it does not direct or coordinate, it only keeps track of occurrences, > directions and coordinates, it is not at all like a gland, the brain does not > *do* a thing. > > The mind at best is a trustworthy director of the brain, is has however > no direct connection to the senses. To the mind nothing makes sense, > it cannot because it senses not. (I know I differ here from some Buddhist > psychology, but I stand by it.) > The mind is not an organ of sense, it is not even an organ. > > The mind actually has no physical powers. It can only 'label' perceptions > with qualifiers that also are fed to it from the outside through the senses. > Those qualifiers are usually not too subtle, often very black and white > indeed. In this, our current society of limited and controlled sensory > input the mind cannot seem to 'do' anything more than labelling under two > main headings: stimulus and passivity. > Human physical dynamics and functionalities are controlled or ordered > that way in our consumer society. > > At worst, the mind thinks - meaning that it assumes that its labelling has > a systematic, analytical, controlling and steering effect (cybernetics, the > art of steering, informatics). > When it overly labels for excitement and stimulus - typical for this society - > a seemingly overwhelming mentality can engulf the body, often at the cost > of the body... but not really... this is what the mind thinks. > When the mind overly labels for passivity, the result of a too accepting > consumer attitude - also typical for our society - a seemingly apathetic > and stifling mentality can take hold of the body, this also at the cost of > the body... but again, so it seems... that is what the mind thinks. > It is not what happens in physical reality, when that is about to happen > the body generates all kinds of messages to the brain to stop the > mental trickery... this then leads to mental depression. A good thing. > The body depresses the mind so as to force the human to integrate > itself again. > > I sometimes consider the brain a tumour, some overgrowth > that gains in self importance by identifying with its symbolic > contents while putting itself ahead of the senses that collect > the data, while putting itself ahead of the data collected by the > senses, while putting itself ahead of that what is being sensed. > Thinking that it actually is the creator of its own contents. > > The labels are moral and cultural agreements, 'per se' labels are > nothing. Labels are not the contents of the box, data in the folder. > Data are not even what they are a symbolic copy of. > > When the mind has turned into the censor, judging perceptions and storing > them under labelled categories, allowing some, not allowing others, it has > overstepped its illusory bounds. > The mind then thinks it can actually direct the senses. If it thinks it rejects, > which it can not, it can only store certain data into a box of "rejects". > Once the mind has put data in the reject box it thinks it has gotten rid of > them... no it has only labelled them... The mind creates the illusion that > it can decide what is and what is not real... what exists and what not. > > Reality can not be influenced by the mind. The mind tells you that it > can and you may or may not believe it. The mind even tells you that you > are free to believe what you want. The mind even allows for such > 'wishy-washyness'. As in, "Everybody has their own truth." > Reality, you don't have to believe in, you sense it with your senses, > it is directly tangible. Illusion always wants you to believe. > Reality dispenses with belief. > > Love, > Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Hi Jan: >Linda, I'm glad you responded with the above. Because, I didn't have >something like a formal practice or anything that could be compared to >it, so it is difficult to imagine there are some, experiencing "yuck" the >moment, "normal, all day life" is entered, and experiencing bliss in >their sanctuary with the lights down low, "spiritual" music and incense >burning. Not meant as an offense, but as a warning, that it is so easy to >create a duality where there isn't one. Any "practice" that creates such >a duality, whether hatha yoga or self-enquiry, could be called an >obstacle, because the witness is always the witness, irrespective of >conditions. Admitted, there can be something like an initial phase called >"practice", its only purpose is to make itself superfluous swiftly, as >there is no practice but life itself. I did have a "practice" for many years and the preparation and understanding had a positive value. Often I worked hard to keep my meditation space with me throughout the daily living and found that what I knew and accepted to be "true" wasn't necessarily the same as "being truth". Life then took me out of the atmosphere of constant reminders and sent me in a direction completely opposed to "sadhana". The prior "experiences" became a tool to call upon as I struggled with a daily life that outraged the mind/ego. Just recently my daughter blew apart again and moved onto a path that has removed all of her safety nets. It was interesting to note that at last there was no struggle on my part to be a witness. Due to her minor child and sick father there is much chaos and emotion attached to her actions. What I have found is that the months of "life as the sadhana" has allowed even the emotions that I may feel to be witnessed. : I still burn incense, play music and participate in practices but that is simply because I like to :-)...it is no more real than my daughter's errant mind. ºº> > The eternal witness of "whatever happens" - or whatever practiceº"works".ººIt certainly does "work" and at a certain point becomes the only thing thatºdoes "work".>Yes, because the witness isn't involved in anything, it is a shortcut >through many layers of conditioning.ºAnd I do love "shortcuts". Love, Lindaº> Love,º> Jan// All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Q. What is awareness? A. yes, certainly. Q. Is awareness what? A. Yes, I just said that. Q. Awareness is what? A. Uh huh. love, andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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