the seeker's demand for "No More Pain"

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I have observed something recently,..

Behind all the 'spiritual' seeking for the last many years, there is

a demand/desire which yells 'No more pain !'.

If one looks at the whole creation, it seems that, from molecules to

plants, animals and man, the mantra 'no more pain' is the common Cry

of all.. a concern with moving towards harmony, feeling healthy/well

...and away from Disturbance or threat to one's well-being.

 

In this context, one can say that this cry & concern is natural and

nothing wrong with it.

So one embarks on 'paths' of removing/preventing the Disturbance/dis-

ease. However it seems, that by doing so the 'cry' is actually being

reinforced and therefore, more pain. probably even more pain than

that of the 'non-spiritually'-interested people.

 

Even trying to let-go, or 'just Be' or non-doing, is more of the

same, .. a resistance to the what-is of life.

 

It seems to me, that this Resistance is, at least, one of the factors

that prevent the living Presence of Awareness 'showing the way'.

Wanting to let go of Resistance, is more resistance.. (there is a

motive,.. and since the 'cry' is such an old and Powerfull

conditioned response, there does not seem much hope in doing anything

about it.

And perhaps, If one would stop there, would be very 'healthy', -but

one does not,.. one gets depressed/desperate ..and so more of the

same.

 

So,.. any suggestion for a way out ?

jb.

[Guest guest]

On 12/7/00 at 1:22 PM J B wrote:

 

[...]

º

ºSo,.. any suggestion for a way out ?

ºjb.

 

No - there is no "way out": SENTIENT LIFE ITSELF IS "THE WAY OUT" because there

is nothing but Awareness. A "way out" from what already could be called "way

out" is impossible - a mirage, an illusion. The seeming separation from

Awareness is the main cause of suffering and paths, methods, religions etc. are

likely to (at least initially) increase the sense of separation before it is

severed. Without separation, pain loses its sting and pleasure ceases to be

addictive. Life wasn't meant as suffering, but as a celebration, in the same

sense the beauty of a flower can be enjoyed while fully aware of its transient

nature... Although both knowledge and means are available to end (undue)

suffering on this planet swiftly, that doesn't happen. A visiting alien could

define that as "the ultimate stupidity".

 

Love,

Jan

[Guest guest]

, "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote:

> On 12/7/00 at 1:22 PM J B wrote:

>

> [...]

> º

> ºSo,.. any suggestion for a way out ?

> ºjb.

>

> No - there is no "way out": SENTIENT LIFE ITSELF IS "THE WAY OUT"

because there is nothing but Awareness. A "way out" from what already

could be called "way out" is impossible - a mirage, an illusion. The

seeming separation from Awareness is the main cause of suffering and

paths, methods, religions etc. are likely to (at least initially)

increase the sense of separation before it is severed. Without

separation, pain loses its sting and pleasure ceases to be addictive.

Life wasn't meant as suffering, but as a celebration, in the same

sense the beauty of a flower can be enjoyed while fully aware of its

transient nature... Although both knowledge and means are available

to end (undue) suffering on this planet swiftly, that doesn't happen.

A visiting alien could define that as "the ultimate stupidity".

>

> Love,

> Jan

 

Hi Jan

Thanks for the reply.

The following I have found significant:

"Although both knowledge and means are available to end (undue)

suffering on this planet swiftly, that doesn't happen. A visiting

alien could define that as "the ultimate stupidity"."

 

Yes, the conclusion, is very appropriate.

And yet, JB for example, is one of those 99,99% of humanity being

absorbed in "ultimate stupidity".

Which brings another question:

What is the difference between those belonging to this category and

those who do not ?

Someone has given this explanation: ignorance.

Well I heard that one before, but it does not make me

more 'intelligent'.

 

Sometimes, I reflect on teachers, who like Buddha, Ramana, Jesus,

J.Krishanmurti and others, used all their lifetime 'preaching'.. but

99,99999% of the listeners have not changed. You can look no further

than Christianity, which in spite of 'love your neighbor as

thyself',.. in its name, millions of humans have been butchered.

 

Along with the reflection, there comes this picture of a human

talking and trying to teach monkeys something.. and in some cases the

monkeys even seem to change (though thru mere mechanical copying of

the human behaviour) but it remains what it is a monkey.. or perhaps

parrot is a better example.

 

And some think they _have_ actually become humans, and start to

preach to others, but in some cases they just think to be the case..

 

So..

What would you say, could minimize the number of disciples treading

the path of 'ultimate stupidity' ?

 

jb.

[Guest guest]

On 12/8/00 at 1:48 PM J B wrote:

 

º , "jb" <kvy9@l...> wrote:

º> On 12/7/00 at 1:22 PM J B wrote:

º>

º> [...]

º> º

º> ºSo,.. any suggestion for a way out ?

º> ºjb.

º>

º> No - there is no "way out": SENTIENT LIFE ITSELF IS "THE WAY OUT"

ºbecause there is nothing but Awareness. A "way out" from what already

ºcould be called "way out" is impossible - a mirage, an illusion. The

ºseeming separation from Awareness is the main cause of suffering and

ºpaths, methods, religions etc. are likely to (at least initially)

ºincrease the sense of separation before it is severed. Without

ºseparation, pain loses its sting and pleasure ceases to be addictive.

ºLife wasn't meant as suffering, but as a celebration, in the same

ºsense the beauty of a flower can be enjoyed while fully aware of its

ºtransient nature... Although both knowledge and means are available

ºto end (undue) suffering on this planet swiftly, that doesn't happen.

ºA visiting alien could define that as "the ultimate stupidity".

º>

º> Love,

º> Jan

º

ºHi Jan

ºThanks for the reply.

 

My pleasure...

 

ºThe following I have found significant:

º"Although both knowledge and means are available to end (undue)

ºsuffering on this planet swiftly, that doesn't happen. A visiting

ºalien could define that as "the ultimate stupidity"."

º

ºYes, the conclusion, is very appropriate.

ºAnd yet, JB for example, is one of those 99,99% of humanity being

ºabsorbed in "ultimate stupidity".

 

Yet in every individual of this 99.99%, both knowledge and means are existing -

as a seed, or potential..

 

ºWhich brings another question:

ºWhat is the difference between those belonging to this category and

ºthose who do not ?

 

"Something" has to happen before the "seed of knowledge" starts to germinate.

In my case, I became convinced that "worldly life had no potential for true

happiness" and gave up "the will to live and enjoy".

For some, this "something" is the conviction that "sentient life is suffering".

Others, by realizing that at death, everything has to be given up, surrender

while alive.

Still others, discovering they are not just "body", wonder "who am I?"

And there are those, discovering one can only love Love...

 

But these are the exceptions, the 0.01% - default is that a child automatically

will take the parents and/or

other members of the family for a role model - parents who are "aware" are

invaluable.

In this "ideal" case, Awareness isn't "forgotten" in childhood and realization

is effortless.

Jnanadeva is one of the finest examples of this. How realization will be

implemented in "individual"

life is another matter - for that reason, the Buddha emphasized that:

"one can rejoice his/her feelings after attaining nirvana (with substratum

remaining), when not, they will be burnt too" (rendered in my words).

 

ºSomeone has given this explanation: ignorance.

ºWell I heard that one before, but it does not make me

ºmore 'intelligent'.

 

My explanation would be that this "seed of knowledge" has been covered by many

weeds of utterly useless mental constructs (conditioning),

to such an extent that even when this is recognized, the weeds won't disappear

by themselves. Although recognizing or intuiting that

the afore can be seen as a correct representation, could be defined as

"intelligent", that does not change one bit: without a "something"

to happen, the weeds won't disappear. There is a certain similarity with the

acquisition of language skills: in childhood, learning of many

languages is effortless, in adulthood, it means a lot of effort.

 

For adults, the only "hope" the intellect can supply, is the utter

"hopelessness" of the situation - seemingly separated from Awareness.

 

 

ºSometimes, I reflect on teachers, who like Buddha, Ramana, Jesus,

ºJ.Krishanmurti and others, used all their lifetime 'preaching'.. but

º99,99999% of the listeners have not changed. You can look no further

ºthan Christianity, which in spite of 'love your neighbor as

ºthyself',.. in its name, millions of humans have been butchered.

 

 

Exactly - the preaching "works" for those, who take the realized one as the

role-mode that was missed in childhood,

or for those who are "on the edge" already and they become the most ardent

disciples.

Whatever a teaching, any part of it can be taken out of context and abused.

The "message" conveyed in all teachings is what children have to be brought up

with, from aware parents,

the "living examples" of such those teachings.

º

ºAlong with the reflection, there comes this picture of a human

ºtalking and trying to teach monkeys something.. and in some cases the

ºmonkeys even seem to change (though thru mere mechanical copying of

ºthe human behaviour) but it remains what it is a monkey.. or perhaps

ºparrot is a better example.

 

Monkeys and parrots, an image quite familiar... The main reason for preaching

and teaching

is the simple fact that humans are social animals and their greatest joy is to

see happy faces

all around - so whether or not teaching is effective, if even one individual is

benefited, it is

considered worthwhile.

 

There is a major difference between humans and monkeys though:

When a banana is buried in front of two caged monkeys and a large stone is put

over it,

the monkeys, when freed, will start to fight and the winner will try to lift up

the stone.

After being exhausted, the winner is beaten up by the weaker monkey who will try

to lift the stone.

Until he is exhausted, and is beaten up and this will repeat..

Humans will lift the stone and then start fighting

 

º

ºAnd some think they _have_ actually become humans, and start to

ºpreach to others, but in some cases they just think to be the case..

 

The Buddha started to preach when "enlightened" and so do many Westerners.

But the Buddha did have a vast background and many years of ascetic experience.

The impact of the Buddha was the Buddha - not the teaching. No doubt this goes

for many teachers...

 

º

ºSo..

ºWhat would you say, could minimize the number of disciples treading

ºthe path of 'ultimate stupidity' ?

º

ºjb.

 

The example was given in the middle ages - there were spiritual communities of

Cathars, who were aware

that a change has to be fundamental - they didn't take the risk of having

filled up children's minds with "rubbish".

Those communities were a kind of Satsangh, spiritual hothouses and considered a

danger to the ruling class.

So they were exterminated (inquisition).

 

Love,

Jan