Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 First, thanx to Harsha, Michael, Annette and all others for their best wishes regarding this painful controversy. And thank you, Gill, for providing the url's to these websites. Additional info like this is what l was most hoping for when l posted on this subject. l haven't read the stuff at the Tibetan government - in - exile's website yet, but l did read both of the long newspaper articles. Let me first say that it appears these articles were written primarily with regard to the activities of Geshe Kelsang and his large following in Britain which have been in militant opposition to the DL. l didn't bother to read much of what was said about the Geshe and his group, but l got the impression that he'd become somewhat of a rogue teacher and his group almost sounded like a cult. As such, he and his British followers don't make very sympathetic opponents of the DL in this controversy. l haven't spoken to my monks since they gave me the video (they've been doing a sand mandala on the road), but l'm confident they have no connection at all to this geshe and his group. They're simple, pure monks who come directly from a respected monastery in lndia. And, in spite of the fact that the DL has cast them out, they speak of him only with respect -- l've never heard a word of criticism from any of them. The same is true of the monks who were interviewed on the video -- they weren't militant opponents of the DL, but instead appeared to be highly conscious beings who were still loyal to him in spite of suffering greatly as a result of his decree. l think reading these articles helps give me a feel for how complicated this issue is and makes me more reluctant to judge the DL so harshly, at least for now, which is good because l didn't want to feel that way about him in the first place. l have no doubt that his actions have been motivated, as always, by his desire to do what's in the best interest of the Tibetan people as a whole. The DL l saw interviewed with the tense, defensive demeanor was perhaps someone who's been worn down by this sad affair, but it was his actions which started this sorry affair. This episode reveals the dark side of a religious state, which Tibet continues to be, even as a government in exile. The DL decrees a ban on a form of religious worship. Many Tibetans have stong religious convictions to the contrary and feel unable to comply with his order and are now made outcasts and outlaws. Goverment supporters form vigilante groups and take the law into their own hands, while the persecuted minority splinters off into both violent, extremist resistance groups and peace loving victims. This appears to be what's basically happened here. And what is the DL's ban based upon? The divinations of the Nechung Oracle? The DL's own realizations? What makes their realizations superior to the realizations of those who disagree with them? Think of all the disagreements we have on any spiritual list on the internet. lmagine how you would feel if one person's realizations were decreed into law and anyone who refused to change their spiritual practice accordingly was cast out, criminalized and persecuted. l can only tell you this, based upon the people l know from the Gaden Shartse Monastery and those l've seen interviewed: a great many of those who oppose the DL on this are not in any way religious fanatics or rigid fundamentalists, as those articles suggest. Dagom Rinpoche, who was here for a week in November to officiate at the opening of the monastery, has received all the teachings and transmissions that the DL has and is one of the most revered figures in Tibetan Buddhism. When people like him refuse to remove Dorje Shugden from their practice, you don't laugh. That is what's missing from these articles, as well as the enormous suffering that the DL's decree has caused. That is what is tragic about this. l'll probably be talking to the monks further about this. But it looks like l can scuttle my plans to host His Holiness here -- his loss, to be sure -- now he won't get to see my garden. jerrysan rinpoche jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 Thanks Jerry for your post. I was both saddened (as Buddha emphasized compassion) and fascinated as no religion (even Buddhism) seems immune to this type of competition amongst their spiritual leaders. Dalai Lama's image in the west may suffer because of this as his actions (or those of his followers) are being called worse than that of Chinese against Tibet. What more insult is possible? I was vaguely aware of the brewing controversy but not the details or the associated violence. That is shocking. The links to newspaper stories sent by Gill are interesting and informative as well. If you have a chance to read, please comment. One does not know what to think. Since these monks are living in your house, I can understand that you have more first hand knowledge and are aware of what is happening. Hope all is well with you Jerrysan. Being the sensitive, caring person that you are, please take care of yourself as well. Love Harsha GCWein1111 [GCWein1111] Sunday, January 14, 2001 6:47 PM Re: Trouble in Shangri-la Hi Everyone (Welcome back Harsha), l just watched a video yesterday about the controversy involving the Dalai Lama 's banning among Gelukpas of the worship of the protector deity Dorje Shugden and have been deeply saddened ever since. This has been going on for several years now, but l didn't recall anything about it until now that it has come to indirectly involve me. lt's only now that l realize that the monks who have a monastery in my upstairs are among the minority of Tibetans who have refused to follow the DL's orders and continue to worship this deity. A local dragon lady who wanted the monks in her home and was refused has gone to the media here to try to discredit them by broadcasting their split with the DL over Dorje Shugden. The monks then gave me the video to watch after l pressed them for more info about it. The video was made by a team of Swiss reporters who traveled to lndia recently to interview the DL, as well as others involved. l was shocked by what l saw. The DL's supporters have been waging a campaign of terror across lndia against Shugden worshippers, committing acts of violence and mayhem, threatening peoples' lives and destroying their homes. Tibetan men cried that that it wasn't safe to leave their wives or children alone. l saw interviews with senior monks at the Gaden Shartse Monastery in lndia (where my monks are from) who were in their 60's and 70's, who said that they had received death threats from the DL's supporters. These grief stricken monks all said they wished they had died rather than living to see this day. Many of them had actually helped the DL flee Tibet over 40 yrs ago and had escorted him to lndia. Now he was demanding that they give up a protector deity that had been worshipped by their families for generations and that was a vital part of their spiritual practice. l haven't yet been able to find any clear answer as to why the DL decided to decree this ban. Some have said it was at the behest of the Nebchung Oracle, others have said it was because he felt this worship was divisive among Gelukpas. lt's difficult to believe that any reason could justify this infringment on Tibetans' freedom of worship and the crimes that have been committed in his name. lt's unclear to me to what extent the DL has sanctioned this violence, but it's undisputed that his government has regarded as outlaws those who have refused out of religious conscience to obey his autocratic order. And the portions of the interview l saw with him were far from reassuring. This was not the warm, smiling DL we're all used to seeing. His face was tense and cold as he responded to questions. When he was asked about violence by his supporters he said "Violence? What violence?" When the reporter replied that he'd personally seen the victims and the violence with his own eyes, the DL snapped "Rumors! Just rumors!" No acknowledgment of what the reporters had themselves seen and heard; no explanations offered; no indication of concern or compassion for the victims. lt was like watching a performance by a politburo chief. This is not to say that wrongs haven't been committed by the other side as well, because they have been. But the DL is the one who began this religious persecution, and this time the numbers and the power are all on his side. The despair l saw in this video on the faces of these venerable monks and their fellow Tibetans in exile was as heart-wrenching as l've ever seen. One monk said what l'm sure they all felt: that what the Chinese did was NOTHING compared to this. The Chinese could take their homes and even their lives, but they couldn't murder their spirits. Only the Dalai Lama could do that. l can't imagine leaving your homeland, making the harrowing, torturous journey to lndia, following your hero the Dalai Lama, only to have him do the same thing to you that the Chinese had done. They have nowhere to go now -- no comfort other than what they can derive from their spiritual practice. l know l have alot to learn about this, and l welcome input from anyone on this list who has more light to shed. But l know enough to weep for these people. l don't know the Dalai Lama, but l know the monks who have come into my life to be as sweet as any beings l've ever known. And l'm siding with them. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 Jerry, Your video sounds very interesting, and it is a blessing to be acquainted with such nice monks. We have a branch of the New Kadampa Buddhist organization here in NYC. Led by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and some lay instructors, they teach Madhyamika Buddhism, but mostly meditation. They do have some ceremonies for empowerment by Dorje Shugden, who they present (at this open level) as a dharma protector. Looking at your implied question as to why the Dalai Lama might feel the way he does about Dorje Shugden worship, I did a quick web search. There are hundreds of links. Here are a very few, giving what is thought to be toward the DL's perspective. There was an article in Tricycle about it also a few years back, #27, Spring 1998. Here's some more info: "But the Dalai Lama has had his fears about Shugden since he had a dream "not to follow him," said Phuntso Tsering, from the Tibet Public Service Commission." In http://savetibet.org/news/dec97/120197.html "Shugden himself however is not the compassionate figure he is portrayed as by the NKT. In one rite he is described as "living in a palace in a lake of boiling blood, wearing a necklace of skulls and human body parts, in a terrible stench of human flesh: and is asked to "Crush enemies to dust". Cal Tech Student Newspapaper http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1997/12/7_2.html Here are some more links: Amnesty International report http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/ai.html World Tibet Network News http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1997/12/1_4.html Love, --Greg At 10:19 AM 1/15/01 -0000, Gill Collingwood wrote: >Hi Jerry, > >I'm sorry; due to the way emails don't always come through in the >order they're posted, I went and jumped in before I'd had a chance >to read the full text of your post. As I haven't seen the video, I can't >comment, butt I'm still convinced that the DL himself isn't >responsible for the violence. It's still very sad that it's happening at >all, though. > >gill > >> Hi Everyone (Welcome back Harsha), l >> just watched a video yesterday about the controversy involving the Dalai >> Lama 's banning among Gelukpas of the worship of the protector deity Dorje >> Shugden and have been deeply saddened ever since. >> >> >> This has been going on for several years now, but l didn't recall >> anything about it until now that it has come to indirectly involve me. >> lt's only now that l realize that the monks who have a monastery in my >> upstairs are among the minority of Tibetans who have refused to follow the >> DL's orders and continue to worship this deity. A local dragon lady who >> wanted the monks in her home and was refused has gone to the media here to >> try to discredit them by broadcasting their split with the DL over Dorje >> Shugden. The monks then gave me the video to watch after l pressed them >> for more info about it. >> >> The video >> was made by a team of Swiss reporters who traveled to lndia recently to >> interview the DL, as well as others involved. l was shocked by what l saw. >> The DL's supporters have been waging a campaign of terror across lndia >> against Shugden worshippers, committing acts of violence and mayhem, >> threatening peoples' lives and destroying their homes. Tibetan men cried >> that that it wasn't safe to leave their wives or children alone. >> >> >> l saw interviews with senior monks at the >> Gaden >> Shartse Monastery in lndia (where my monks are from) who were in their >> 60's and 70's, who said that they had received death threats from the DL's >> supporters. These grief stricken monks all said they wished they had died >> rather than living to see this day. Many of them had actually helped the >> DL flee Tibet over 40 yrs ago and had escorted him to lndia. Now he was >> demanding that they give up a protector deity that had been worshipped by >> their families for generations and that was a vital part of their >> spiritual practice. >> l haven't yet been able to find any clear answer as to >> >> why the DL decided to decree this ban. Some have said it was at the behest >> of the Nebchung Oracle, others have said it was because he felt this >> worship was divisive among Gelukpas. lt's difficult to believe that any >> reason could justify this infringment on Tibetans' freedom of worship and >> the crimes that have been committed in his name. >> >> lt's unclear to me to what >> extent the DL has sanctioned this violence, but it's undisputed that his >> government has regarded as outlaws those who have refused out of religious >> conscience to obey his autocratic order. And the portions of the interview >> l saw with him were far from reassuring. This was not the warm, smiling DL >> we're all used to seeing. His face was tense and cold as he responded to >> questions. When he was asked about violence by his supporters he said >> "Violence? What violence?" When the reporter replied that he'd personally >> seen the victims and the violence with his own eyes, the DL snapped >> "Rumors! Just rumors!" No acknowledgment of what the reporters had >> themselves seen and heard; no explanations offered; no indication of >> concern or compassion for the victims. lt was like watching a performance >> by a politburo chief. >> >> This is not to >> say that wrongs haven't been committed by the other side as well, because >> they have been. But the DL is the one who began this religious >> persecution, and this time the numbers and the power are all on his side. >> >> >> The despair l saw in this video on the faces of these venerable >> monks >> and their fellow Tibetans in exile was as heart-wrenching as l've ever >> seen. One monk said what l'm sure they all felt: that what the Chinese did >> was NOTHING compared to this. The Chinese could take their homes and even >> their lives, but they couldn't murder their spirits. Only the Dalai Lama >> could do that. l can't imagine leaving your homeland, making the >> harrowing, torturous journey to lndia, following your hero the Dalai Lama, >> only to have him do the same thing to you that the Chinese had done. They >> have nowhere to go now -- no comfort other than what they can derive from >> their spiritual practice. >> >> l know l have >> alot to learn about this, and l welcome input from anyone on this list who >> has more light to shed. But l know enough to weep for these people. l >> don't know the Dalai Lama, but l know the monks who have come into my life >> to be as sweet as any beings l've ever known. And l'm siding with them. >> >> >> jerry > > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 Namaste All, I don't know a lot about the DL, except what is printed. His teachings seem non violent but at the same time, how can you trust that when he eats meat! His vijnanamayakosa cannot be that developed, perhaps he is a politician....Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. , GCWein1111@a... wrote: > Hi Everyone (Welcome back Harsha), > l just watched a video yesterday about the controversy involving the Dalai > Lama > 's banning among Gelukpas of the worship of the protector deity Dorje Shugden > and have been deeply saddened ever since. > > This has been going on for several years now, but l didn't recall > anything about it until now that it has come to indirectly involve me. lt's > only now that l realize that the monks who have a monastery in my upstairs > are among the minority of Tibetans who have refused to follow the DL's orders > and continue to worship this deity. A local dragon lady who wanted the monks > in her home and was refused has gone to the media here to try to discredit > them by broadcasting their split with the DL over Dorje Shugden. The monks > then gave me the video to watch after l pressed them for more info about it. > > The video > was made by a team of Swiss reporters who traveled to lndia recently to > interview the DL, as well as others involved. l was shocked by what l saw. > The DL's supporters have been waging a campaign of terror across lndia > against Shugden worshippers, committing acts of violence and mayhem, > threatening peoples' lives and destroying their homes. Tibetan men cried that > that it wasn't safe to leave their wives or children alone. > > l saw interviews with senior monks at the Gaden > Shartse Monastery in lndia (where my monks are from) who were in their 60's > and 70's, who said that they had received death threats from the DL's > supporters. These grief stricken monks all said they wished they had died > rather than living to see this day. Many of them had actually helped the DL > flee Tibet over 40 yrs ago and had escorted him to lndia. Now he was > demanding that they give up a protector deity that had been worshipped by > their families for generations and that was a vital part of their spiritual > practice. > l haven't yet been able to find any clear answer as to > why the DL decided to decree this ban. Some have said it was at the behest of > the Nebchung Oracle, others have said it was because he felt this worship was > divisive among Gelukpas. lt's difficult to believe that any reason could > justify this infringment on Tibetans' freedom of worship and the crimes that > have been committed in his name. > lt's unclear to me to what > extent the DL has sanctioned this violence, but it's undisputed that his > government has regarded as outlaws those who have refused out of religious > conscience to obey his autocratic order. And the portions of the interview l > saw with him were far from reassuring. This was not the warm, smiling DL > we're all used to seeing. His face was tense and cold as he responded to > questions. When he was asked about violence by his supporters he said > "Violence? What violence?" When the reporter replied that he'd personally > seen the victims and the violence with his own eyes, the DL snapped "Rumors! > Just rumors!" No acknowledgment of what the reporters had themselves seen > and heard; no explanations offered; no indication of concern or compassion > for the victims. lt was like watching a performance by a politburo chief. > > This is not to > say that wrongs haven't been committed by the other side as well, because > they have been. But the DL is the one who began this religious persecution, > and this time the numbers and the power are all on his side. > > The despair l saw in this video on the faces of these venerable monks > and their fellow Tibetans in exile was as heart-wrenching as l've ever seen. > One monk said what l'm sure they all felt: that what the Chinese did was > NOTHING compared to this. The Chinese could take their homes and even their > lives, but they couldn't murder their spirits. Only the Dalai Lama could do > that. l can't imagine leaving your homeland, making the harrowing, torturous > journey to lndia, following your hero the Dalai Lama, only to have him do the > same thing to you that the Chinese had done. They have nowhere to go now -- > no comfort other than what they can derive from their spiritual practice. > > l know l have > alot to learn about this, and l welcome input from anyone on this list who > has more light to shed. But l know enough to weep for these people. l don't > know the Dalai Lama, but l know the monks who have come into my life to be as > sweet as any beings l've ever known. And l'm siding with them. > > jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 Hello: >From my perspective, the DL, as fine of a man as he is, is still human and entitled to foibles and errors. He is also not an enlightened being but a political figure as all DL's were. Historically, the DL's have been involved in war all the other political intrigues that any national leader is. Mark Namaste All, I don't know a lot about the DL, except what is printed. His teachings seem non violent but at the same time, how can you trust that when he eats meat! His vijnanamayakosa cannot be that developed, perhaps he is a politician....Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 - Milarepa Hello:From my perspective, the DL, as fine of a man as he is, is still humanand entitled to foibles and errors. He is also not an enlightened beingbut a political figure as all DL's were. Historically, the DL's have beeninvolved in war all the other political intrigues that any national leader is. MarkNamaste All,I don't know a lot about the DL, except what is printed. His teachings seem non violent but at the same time, how can you trust that when he eats meat! His vijnanamayakosa cannot be that developed, perhaps he is a politician....Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. You guys are so funny, He is this, He is not that. Eats this, do not eat that. I walked on an ant today. Forgive me I was not there when I was walking, listening to (its) your life, must of had something on the mind... I love ants, but sometimes step on them, they are so small, don't see them all the time from my 6' 7`` Often it is forgotten that it is a cruel thing to eat bread or drink water or simply to breath. There is a real sadistic side to simply being as a living entity. A fire is beautiful in this way, like the sun... Antoine Attachment: (image/jpeg) fire.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2001 Report Share Posted January 15, 2001 Hi Jerry, For what it's worth, I recommend you love the monks who meet upstairs from you and that you also love the Dalai Lama and the folks who follow him. Both (all) are human beings, and therefore, as near as I can tell, both have limited perspective. I certainly do, and that may well be the only thing I can say with any authority. Nonetheless, I suspect that loving everyone is the right action to take. I empathize with your situation, and I wish you well. Love, Mark GCWein1111 wrote: > Hi Everyone (Welcome back Harsha), > l just watched a video yesterday about the controversy involving the > Dalai > Lama > 's banning among Gelukpas of the worship of the protector deity Dorje > Shugden > and have been deeply saddened ever since. > > This has been going on for several years now, but l didn't > recall > anything about it until now that it has come to indirectly involve me. > lt's > only now that l realize that the monks who have a monastery in my > upstairs > are among the minority of Tibetans who have refused to follow the DL's > orders > and continue to worship this deity. A local dragon lady who wanted the > monks > in her home and was refused has gone to the media here to try to > discredit > them by broadcasting their split with the DL over Dorje Shugden. The > monks > then gave me the video to watch after l pressed them for more info > about it. > > > The video > was made by a team of Swiss reporters who traveled to lndia recently > to > interview the DL, as well as others involved. l was shocked by what l > saw. > The DL's supporters have been waging a campaign of terror across lndia > > against Shugden worshippers, committing acts of violence and mayhem, > threatening peoples' lives and destroying their homes. Tibetan men > cried that > that it wasn't safe to leave their wives or children alone. > > l saw interviews with senior monks at the > Gaden > Shartse Monastery in lndia (where my monks are from) who were in their > 60's > and 70's, who said that they had received death threats from the DL's > supporters. These grief stricken monks all said they wished they had > died > rather than living to see this day. Many of them had actually helped > the DL > flee Tibet over 40 yrs ago and had escorted him to lndia. Now he was > demanding that they give up a protector deity that had been worshipped > by > their families for generations and that was a vital part of their > spiritual > practice. > l haven't yet been able to find any clear answer > as to > why the DL decided to decree this ban. Some have said it was at the > behest of > the Nebchung Oracle, others have said it was because he felt this > worship was > divisive among Gelukpas. lt's difficult to believe that any reason > could > justify this infringment on Tibetans' freedom of worship and the > crimes that > have been committed in his name. > lt's unclear to me to > what > extent the DL has sanctioned this violence, but it's undisputed that > his > government has regarded as outlaws those who have refused out of > religious > conscience to obey his autocratic order. And the portions of the > interview l > saw with him were far from reassuring. This was not the warm, smiling > DL > we're all used to seeing. His face was tense and cold as he responded > to > questions. When he was asked about violence by his supporters he said > "Violence? What violence?" When the reporter replied that he'd > personally > seen the victims and the violence with his own eyes, the DL snapped > "Rumors! > Just rumors!" No acknowledgment of what the reporters had themselves > seen > and heard; no explanations offered; no indication of concern or > compassion > for the victims. lt was like watching a performance by a politburo > chief. > > This is > not to > say that wrongs haven't been committed by the other side as well, > because > they have been. But the DL is the one who began this religious > persecution, > and this time the numbers and the power are all on his side. > > The despair l saw in this video on the faces of these > venerable monks > and their fellow Tibetans in exile was as heart-wrenching as l've ever > seen. > One monk said what l'm sure they all felt: that what the Chinese did > was > NOTHING compared to this. The Chinese could take their homes and even > their > lives, but they couldn't murder their spirits. Only the Dalai Lama > could do > that. l can't imagine leaving your homeland, making the harrowing, > torturous > journey to lndia, following your hero the Dalai Lama, only to have him > do the > same thing to you that the Chinese had done. They have nowhere to go > now -- > no comfort other than what they can derive from their spiritual > practice. > > l know l > have > alot to learn about this, and l welcome input from anyone on this list > who > has more light to shed. But l know enough to weep for these people. l > don't > know the Dalai Lama, but l know the monks who have come into my life > to be as > sweet as any beings l've ever known. And l'm siding with them. > > jerry > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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