Guest guest Posted February 12, 2001 Report Share Posted February 12, 2001 Dear Pieter, l didn't know that Ramana was taken to court. Do you (or anyone else) have any details about this and could you please reveal the source of your information? Ramana is one of the few about whom l've never heard any real scandal. Of course, there can always be an isolated accusation or lawsuit by some disaffected devotee, which is what l would assume this to be. This clearly does not appear to be the case with YB, about whom there are a deluge of complaints. lt is important to note also that Ramana was content to remain in relative isolation in rural lndia, while YB chose to come to America to build a spiritual empire. Nearly all lndians who have gone the "empire builder" route have gone bad. You seem to me to be acting in good faith, and again, l'm not questioning your experiences. There are troubling and baffling questions about deeply flawed teachers, and l don't claim to have the answers. Many, like Muktananda and others of his lineage, have attained great knowledge and power and have no doubt helped many aspirants along the way -- yet, they've also harmed many others with their ruthless and harmful acts of exploitation. Many authors, more knowledgable than l, have tried in vain to explain this contradiction. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2001 Report Share Posted February 12, 2001 Dear Jerry, Very interesting message below! Is it in response to one from Pieter? I'd like to read that one, but must have missed it. Could you send it to me? Love, --Greg At 12:37 PM 2/12/01 EST, GCWein1111 wrote: > Dear Pieter, > l didn't know that Ramana was taken to court. Do you (or anyone else) >have any details about this and could you please reveal the source of your >information? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2001 Report Share Posted February 12, 2001 GCWein1111 [GCWein1111] Monday, February 12, 2001 12:38 PM Re: Yogi Bhajan Dear Pieter, l didn't know that Ramana was taken to court. Do you (or anyone else) have any details about this and could you please reveal the source of your information? ___________ Ramana Maharshi, the great Sage of Arunachala of utterly immaculate and total purity who exemplified compassion at every level and to whom the Shankracharyas, the Yogis and Tantrics bowed, was once asked for a deposition regarding his will for the Ashram. The beautiful record of that conversation when he was questioned is well known. When asked to what ashram (life stage) the Sage belonged to, Sri Ramana simply replied "Atiashram" (beyond all life stages!) Although the Sri Ramana's name is often mentioned in the same sentences as that of other great Gurus, that is simply a trick of the language. He is truly incomparable! Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2001 Report Share Posted February 13, 2001 On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:51:54 -0500 "Harsha \(Dr. Harsh K. Luthar\)" <hluthar writes: > > GCWein1111 [GCWein1111] > Monday, February 12, 2001 12:38 PM > > Re: Yogi Bhajan > > > Dear Pieter, > l didn't know that Ramana was taken to court. Do you (or anyone > else) > have any details about this and could you please reveal the source > of your > information? > ___________ > Ramana Maharshi, the great Sage of Arunachala of utterly immaculate > and > total purity who exemplified compassion at every level and to whom > the > Shankracharyas, the Yogis and Tantrics bowed, was once asked for a > deposition regarding his will for the Ashram. The beautiful record > of that conversation when he was questioned is well known. > > When asked to what ashram (life stage) the Sage belonged to, Sri > Ramana simply replied "Atiashram" (beyond all life stages!) > > Although the Sri Ramana's name is often mentioned in the same > sentences as > that of other great Gurus, that is simply a trick of the language. > He is truly incomparable! > > Love to all > Harsha > No offense to the blessed memory of Sri Ramana Maharshi, but isn't it the nature of all "great Gurus" to be remembered as "truly incomparable?" :-) http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2001 Report Share Posted February 13, 2001 l'd like to thank both Linda and Harsha for their helpful posts on this subject. lt was helpful, Linda, to learn of your personal experience with Yogi Bhajan. l've never met YB and have no axe to grind here. lf you go to the rickross.com website and read thru the comments from ex-devotees, l think it will leave you with the impression that some things appear to have gone very wrong at 3HO in the past and that much of this is attributable to YB. There is more damaging information at other websites l've seen. Does this mean YB hasn't helped alot of people along the path? No. From the account of Pieter and no doubt others, it appears that he has. l think the way YB appeared to Linda (as depressed) and his comments to her (about his mistake in starting a spiritual organization) ring true. lt would appear to confirm the extent of his problems, and it goes to the heart of what l said in my previous post about the overwhelming tendency of eastern spiritual empire builders to come to ruins in the west. My objective has never been to villify anyone, but rather to remove the blinders and take an honest look at the evidence. ln doing so, l'm just as interested in the positive stories (inluding Pieter's) as in the negative ones. Only after doing that can we then engage in a meaningful discussion about this sad state of affairs -- sad because of the harm being done not only to indivduals but also to the credibility of the dharma itself. Believe me, it's very easy after reading about these countless scandals to become disillusioned and to conclude, as thousands already have, that there are no good teachers -- no true role models -- and that the teachings lack validity. ls that what we wish to see happen? The way to counteract this is not to stick our heads in the sand. ln no small part because of these scandals, one hears more and more that the days of the guru are coming to an and. l don't know. Surely we will always need genuine teachers, and we'll always have them. But l suspect the era of the Yogi Bhajans, Amrit Desais, Swami Ramas, Kriyanandas, Muktanandas, Gurumayis, Trungpas, Ozel Tenzins, Sogyal Rinpoches, etc., is about over. From Mt Kailash, jerrysan rinpoche (a tulku you can believe in) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2001 Report Share Posted February 13, 2001 Bruce Morgen [editor] Tuesday, February 13, 2001 6:38 AM Re: Re: Yogi Bhajan > ___________ > Ramana Maharshi, the great Sage of Arunachala of utterly immaculate > and > total purity who exemplified compassion at every level and to whom > the > Shankracharyas, the Yogis and Tantrics bowed, was once asked for a > deposition regarding his will for the Ashram. The beautiful record > of that conversation when he was questioned is well known. > > When asked to what ashram (life stage) the Sage belonged to, Sri > Ramana simply replied "Atiashram" (beyond all life stages!) > > Although the Sri Ramana's name is often mentioned in the same > sentences as > that of other great Gurus, that is simply a trick of the language. > He is truly incomparable! > > Love to all > Harsha _____________________________ Bruceji: No offense to the blessed memory of Sri Ramana Maharshi, but isn't it the nature of all "great Gurus" to be remembered as "truly incomparable?" :-) ______________________________ No offense taken Bruceji. You are right of course. Love Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2001 Report Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hi Jerry, This is very soberly and poignantly observed! Love, --Greg At 12:14 PM 2/13/01 EST, GCWein1111 wrote: > l'd like to thank both Linda and Harsha for their helpful posts on this >subject. lt was helpful, Linda, to learn of your personal experience with >Yogi Bhajan. > l've never met YB and have no axe to grind here. >lf you go to the rickross.com website and read thru the comments from >ex-devotees, l think it will leave you with the impression that some things >appear to have gone very wrong at 3HO in the past and that much of this is >attributable to YB. There is more damaging information at other websites l've >seen. Does this mean YB hasn't helped alot of people along the path? No. From >the account of Pieter and no doubt others, it appears that he has. > l >think the way YB appeared to Linda (as depressed) and his comments to her >(about his mistake in starting a spiritual organization) ring true. lt would >appear to confirm the extent of his problems, and it goes to the heart of >what l said in my previous post about the overwhelming tendency of eastern >spiritual empire builders to come to ruins in the west. > > My objective has never been to villify >anyone, but rather to remove the blinders and take an honest look at the >evidence. ln doing so, l'm just as interested in the positive stories >(inluding Pieter's) as in the negative ones. Only after doing that can we >then engage in a meaningful discussion about this sad state of affairs -- sad >because of the harm being done not only to indivduals but also to the >credibility of the dharma itself. > > Believe me, it's very easy after reading about these >countless scandals to become disillusioned and to conclude, as thousands >already have, that there are no good teachers -- no true role models -- and >that the teachings lack validity. ls that what we wish to see happen? The way >to counteract this is not to stick our heads in the sand. > > ln no small part because >of these scandals, one hears more and more that the days of the guru are >coming to an and. l don't know. Surely we will always need genuine teachers, >and we'll always have them. But l suspect the era of the Yogi Bhajans, Amrit >Desais, Swami Ramas, Kriyanandas, Muktanandas, Gurumayis, Trungpas, Ozel >Tenzins, Sogyal Rinpoches, etc., is about over. > > From Mt Kailash, > jerrysan rinpoche (a tulku you can believe in) > > >/join > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2001 Report Share Posted February 14, 2001 Hello Jerry: Your post brings up some core issues regarding the spiritual journey. It would be understandable for a person to come to the conclusion that teachers of spirituality do not live up to the teachings and therefore, "throw out the baby with the bathwater". That is probably not the best solution as for many of us there is a long distance between hearing that one is a perfect soul/self and getting to the point where one is the perfect self. Without some type of guidance along the way one can run into difficulty ranging from simple loneliness to alienation to errant kundalini activity. A competent teacher is definitely a blessing. Of course, finding a competent teacher can be a challenge, especially when one moves into the realm of working with those teachers who have achieved a level of being able to work with shakti energy. If those teachers have not cleaned up their own act, have not faced their own issues/samskaras the danger of their egos being huge is very much present. Personally, I believe that an active kundalini combined with many unresolved psychological problems can leave the teacher/guru actually unable to see how irrational they have become. This speaks of the core issue itself - teacher/guru found some techniques and, without the proper guidance, unleashed "energy voltage" and proceeds to pump him/herself up by presenting teachings. One can look at the end result of this and see the amount of money and power that the "guru" has gathered and believe the teachings themselves are false and that the "guru" always intended to use and abuse students. However, I believe that many of these teachers started out with a sincere desire to help others but due to the lack of proper guidance in the beginning things moved in a negative direction and probably the "guru" is as trapped in illusion as the "student". Perhaps things fall apart here in the West because we believe in instant results....write the check, swipe the credit card and enlightenment in ours. Bottom line is that the majority of us have latent tendencies that have to be worked on and that work takes time and effort. A good teacher can inspire us to start and perhaps even give us some help with energy healing but if he/she promises us that surrender to their form will get us there we should recognize there is a problem. A good teacher should be able to give us some tools to work with but should let us know that we have to walk the talk and use the tools on our own. If surrender is spoken of it should be in terms of surrendering to our own hearts with the understanding that we are as perfect as the teacher and if a teacher is speaking of busting your ego his/her own ego should not be obvious, in other words we should recognize humility coming from the teacher before humility is demanded of the student. I agree with you completely, we can not hide our heads in the sand. The ultimate destiny of each person is to shed the shackles of body/mind identification and at this time on the planet it is as if the greatest of secrets has been revealed as more of us begin to discover the purity of the true self. Rather then simply uncovering the problems within the spiritual world we need to be conscious in our choice of teachers, if the demand for instant enlightenment and/or for a persona to takes us there disappears, so will the market for those who market to that need. Years ago in order to get herbs I had to write to a company somewhere in the midwest and stuff the awful tasting ones into little caplets because that is all that was available. Now because the public demanded it we can get high quality herbs at a variety of places. There is truth in the teachings of yoga, meditation, etc., we need to demand that teachers be as truthful as the teachings. Linda >Does this mean YB hasn't helped alot of people along the path? No. >From >the account of Pieter and no doubt others, it appears that he has. l > Believe me, it's very easy after reading about these >countless scandals to become disillusioned and to conclude, as thousands >already have, that there are no good teachers -- no true role models -- >and that the teachings lack validity. ls that what we wish to see happen? >The way to counteract this is not to stick our heads in the >sand. >ln no small part because of these scandals, one hears more and more that >the days of the guru are coming to an and. l don't know. Surely we will >always need genuine teachers, and we'll always have them. But l suspect >the era of the Yogi Bhajans, Amrit >Desais, Swami Ramas, Kriyanandas, Muktanandas, Gurumayis, Trungpas, Ozel >Tenzins, Sogyal Rinpoches, etc., is about over. From Mt Kailash, jerrysan rinpoche (a tulku you can believe in)/joinAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2001 Report Share Posted February 16, 2001 In a message dated 2/14/01 6:05:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, jyotish writes: << Of course, finding a competent teacher can be a challenge, especially when one moves into the realm of working with those teachers who have achieved a level of being able to work with shakti energy. If those teachers have not cleaned up their own act, have not faced their own issues/samskaras the danger of their egos being huge is very much present. Personally, I believe that an active kundalini combined with many unresolved psychological problems can leave the teacher/guru actually unable to see how irrational they have become. This speaks of the core issue itself - teacher/guru found some techniques and, without the proper guidance, unleashed "energy voltage" and proceeds to pump him/herself up by presenting teachings. >> Dear Linda, l only set out a portion of your post (l'm such an economist), but l found that l resonated with everything you said. l've been slow in responding because of pc problems which have led me to stick to only very short posts. There is so much that can be said about this. As l've stated at other times, l looked to teachers (supposedly good ones) after my k awakened in 92 and for the most part received only poor guidance which caused problems from which l'm still suffering. ln general, l've found that supposed k gurus contradict each other in so many areas that l take it all with a grain of salt. For the past several years l've just avoided them and have experienced very slow but steady progress. l've encountered many experiencers who've had the same overall experience and have come to the same conclusion. So, l have to admit that l don't know of any teacher who l would trust with my process. l must add that l have heard of teachers who have helped people with *problems*, and l do believe that good ones are out there, but as you say, they're extremely rare. And l don't believe that even the best of them can smooth out everyone's k difficulties. For many of us, simply alot of nurturing and patience over a long period of time is required IMO. l completely agree with your observations about the role unresolved psychological issues play with teachers and the manner in which they pump themselves up with teachings. Thanx for sharing your thoughts. From Mt Kailash, jerrysan rinpoche ( " The tulku's tulku." Palm Beach Quarterly February 30, 1984 ) ps: l appreciate your desire to see me walk on water. Due to current unrest among Sangha members, l'm keeping my siddhis under wraps for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 Hi Jerry: I would imagine that a good teacher is very difficult to find after "k" has started her process. A good teacher is best when helping to prepare you for the activity. Fortunately, I had good preparation it was only after the action started and compassion was what was needed that my teacher bottomed out. You are right time will take care of much of it along with some common sense and knowledge. I have seen others get good results with some basic reiki treatment and I have found the books by David Frawley to be invaluable for the advice on foods and activities. Linda PS....well, I do hope that the sangham calms down it would be fun to see pixs of you walking on water :-). > Dear >Linda, > l only set out a portion of your post (l'm such an economist), >but l >found that l resonated with everything you said. l've been slow in >responding >because of pc problems which have led me to stick to only very short >posts. > There is so much that can be said about this. As >l've >stated at other times, l looked to teachers (supposedly good ones) after >my k >awakened in 92 and for the most part received only poor guidance which >caused >problems from which l'm still suffering. ln general, l've found that >supposed >k gurus contradict each other in so many areas that l take it all with a >grain of salt. For the past several years l've just avoided them and have >experienced very slow but steady progress. l've encountered many >experiencers >who've had the same overall experience and have come to the same >conclusion. > So, l have to >admit that l don't know of any teacher who l would trust with my process. >l >must add that l have heard of teachers who have helped people with >*problems*, and l do believe that good ones are out there, but as you >say, >they're extremely rare. And l don't believe that even the best of them >can >smooth out everyone's k difficulties. For many of us, simply alot of >nurturing and patience over a long period of time is required >IMO. > l completely agree with your >observations >about the role unresolved psychological issues play with teachers and the >manner in which they pump themselves up with teachings. Thanx for sharing >your >thoughts. From Mt Kailash, jerrysan rinpoche ( " The tulku's tulku." Palm Beach Quarterly February 30, 1984 ) ps: l appreciate your desire to see me walk on water. Due to current unrest among Sangha members, l'm keeping my siddhis under wraps for awhile./joinAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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