Ramana Maharshi on the dream state, dreamless sleep, and awakening

[Guest guest]

The Mountain Path

Vol. 1 - JULY 1964 - No. 3

 

Above The Three States

Nagamma

 

6th September, 1947

 

Last month, while my sister-in-law was staying here, the proof of. the

Telugu version of Vichara Mani Mala was received from the printer. In the

afternoon Bhagavan corrected it and then passed it on to me. On reading it,

my sister-in-law asked me the meaning of swapnathyantha nivritthi. I wasn't

quite sure myself so I said something or other but she was not quite

satisfied. Bhagavan noticed and said: "What is the matter? Is there some

mistake?"

 

 

"No," I replied; "she is asking the meaning of swapnathyantha nivritthi."

 

 

"It means absolutely dreamless sleep," Bhagavan said kindly.

 

 

"Would it be true," I asked, "to say that a Jnani does not have dreams at

all?"

 

 

"He has no dreamstate," Bhagavan replied1.

________

1 - Taken as it stands, this cryptic reply could be misleading. Actually,

the Jnani experiences the dreamstate as much as, but no more than, the other

two states of waking and deep sleep. Bhagavan did sometimes have dreams and

he might relate one to devotees, just as he might speak about some waking

action, but his Real State, as is explained lower down in this letter, was

beyond both. The state of the Jnani is referred to as Turiya the 'Fourth'

being beyond the three states commonly experienced. (Editor).

 

 

My sister-in-law was still not satisfied, but as people began to talk about

other things we had to leave the matter there. Only at night she said to me:

"It is said in Vasishta that the Jnani only appears to perform actions but

they do not affect him at all. We ought to have asked Bhagavan the real

meaning of this."

 

 

"You know how compassionate Bhagavan is," I replied. "He will find some

occasion to remove your doubts."

 

 

When we went to the Ashram at 8 o'clock next morning it so happened that

Bhagavan was just explaining this very point to Sundaresha Iyer. Eagerly

availing herself of the opportunity, my sister-in-law again took up the

subject. "It is not only the dream state but all three states that are

unreal to the Jnani," Bhagavan told her. "The real state of the Jnani is

where none of these three states exist."

 

 

"The waking state also is equivalent to a dream, isn't it?" I asked.

 

 

"Yes," he replied. "Whereas a dream lasts for a short time, this lasts

longer. That is the only difference."

 

 

"Then is sleep also a dream?" I asked.

 

 

"No," he replied, "sleep is an actuality. How can it be a dream when there

is no mental activity? However, since it is a state of mental vacuum, it is

avidya (nescience) and therefore must be rejected."2

________

2 - When thought ceases it can be superseded either by a blank, as in sleep,

or by pure Awareness, as in samadhi or Turiya. Sleep is, therefore, a sort

of dark counterpart of the luminous state of undifferentiated

BeingAwareness. That is why Bhagavan says it must be rejected as not being

the true alternative to multiplicity but only a simulacrum of it. (Editor).

 

 

"But is sleep also said to be a dream-state?" I persisted.

 

 

"Some may have said so for the sake of terminology," Bhagavan admitted, "but

really there is nothing separate. Short and long duration apply only to the

dream and waking states. Someone may say we have lived so long and these

houses and belongings are so clearly evident to us that it surely cannot be

all a dream; but we have to remember that even dreams seem long while they

last. It is only when you wake up that you realise it only lasted a short

time. In the same way, when one attains Jnana (Realization) this life is

seen to be momentary. Dreamless sleep means nescience; therefore it is to be

rejected in favour of the state of pure Awareness."

 

 

My sister-in-law then interposed: "It is said that the bliss that occurs in

deep sleep is experienced in samadhi as well, but how is that to be

reconciled with the statement that sleep is a state of nescience?"

 

 

"That is why sleep also is to be rejected," Bhagavan replied. "It is true

that there is bliss in sleep but one is not aware of it. One only knows

about it afterwards when one wakes up and says that one slept well. Samadhi

means experiencing this bliss while remaining awake."

 

 

"So it means waking or conscious sleep? I asked."

 

 

"Yes, that is so," he said.

 

 

My sister-in-law then brought up the other cognate question that had worried

her. "It is said in Vasishta that a Jnani seems to others to be engaged in

various activities, but actually he is not affected by them at all. Is it

because of their different outlook that it seems so to others, or is he

really unaffected?"

 

 

"He is really unaffected," Bhagavan replied.

 

 

"People speak of favourable visions both in dream and while awake; what are

they?" she asked.

 

 

"To a Jnani they all seem the same," he replied.

 

 

However she persisted: "It is stated in Bhagavan's biography3 that Ganapati

Muni had a vision of Bhagavan when he was at Tiruvottiyur and Bhagavan at

Tiruvannamalai and that at the very same time Bhagavan had a feeling of

accepting homage. How can such things be described?"

________

3 - See Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, p. 96, by Arthur

Osborne, Rider & Co. (Editor.)

 

 

Bhagavan answered cryptically: "I have already stated that such things are

what are known as divine visions." He then assumed silence, indicating that

he was not willing to continue the talk.4

________

4 - See the footnote on 'Silence', in Nagamma's previous letter in The

Mountain Path of April, 1964. (Editor).

[Guest guest]

- Harsha

; advaitin

Monday, March 05, 2001 8:25 AM

Ramana Maharshi on the dream state, dreamless sleep, and awakening

The Mountain PathVol. 1 - JULY 1964 - No. 3Above The Three

StatesNagamma6th September, 1947Last month, while my sister-in-law

was staying here, the proof of. theTelugu version of Vichara Mani

Mala was received from the printer. In theafternoon Bhagavan

corrected it and then passed it on to me. On reading it,my

sister-in-law asked me the meaning of swapnathyantha nivritthi. I

wasn'tquite sure myself so I said something or other but she was not

quitesatisfied. Bhagavan noticed and said: "What is the matter? Is

there somemistake?""No," I replied; "she is asking the meaning of

swapnathyantha nivritthi.""It means absolutely dreamless sleep,"

Bhagavan said kindly."Would it be true," I asked, "to say that a

Jnani does not have dreams atall?""He has no dreamstate," Bhagavan

replied1.________1 - Taken as it

stands, this cryptic reply could be misleading. Actually,the Jnani

experiences the dreamstate as much as, but no more than, the othertwo

states of waking and deep sleep. Bhagavan did sometimes have dreams

andhe might relate one to devotees, just as he might speak about some

wakingaction, but his Real State, as is explained lower down in this

letter, wasbeyond both. The state of the Jnani is referred to as

Turiya the 'Fourth'being beyond the three states commonly

experienced. (Editor).My sister-in-law was still not satisfied, but

as people began to talk aboutother things we had to leave the matter

there. Only at night she said to me:"It is said in Vasishta that the

Jnani only appears to perform actions butthey do not affect him at

all. We ought to have asked Bhagavan the realmeaning of this.""You

know how compassionate Bhagavan is," I replied. "He will find

someoccasion to remove your doubts."When we went to the Ashram at 8

o'clock next morning it so happened thatBhagavan was just explaining

this very point to Sundaresha Iyer. Eagerlyavailing herself of the

opportunity, my sister-in-law again took up thesubject. "It is not

only the dream state but all three states that areunreal to the

Jnani," Bhagavan told her. "The real state of the Jnani iswhere none

of these three states exist.""The waking state also is equivalent to

a dream, isn't it?" I asked."Yes," he replied. "Whereas a dream lasts

for a short time, this lastslonger. That is the only difference.""Then

is sleep also a dream?" I asked."No," he replied, "sleep is an

actuality. How can it be a dream when thereis no mental activity?

However, since it is a state of mental vacuum, it isavidya

(nescience) and therefore must be

rejected."2________2 - When thought

ceases it can be superseded either by a blank, as in sleep,or by pure

Awareness, as in samadhi or Turiya. Sleep is, therefore, a sortof

dark counterpart of the luminous state of

undifferentiatedBeingAwareness. That is why Bhagavan says it must be

rejected as not beingthe true alternative to multiplicity but only a

simulacrum of it. (Editor)."But is sleep also said to be a

dream-state?" I persisted."Some may have said so for the sake of

terminology," Bhagavan admitted, "butreally there is nothing

separate. Short and long duration apply only to thedream and waking

states. Someone may say we have lived so long and thesehouses and

belongings are so clearly evident to us that it surely cannot beall a

dream; but we have to remember that even dreams seem long while

theylast. It is only when you wake up that you realise it only lasted

a shorttime. In the same way, when one attains Jnana (Realization)

this life isseen to be momentary. Dreamless sleep means nescience;

therefore it is to berejected in favour of the state of pure

Awareness."My sister-in-law then interposed: "It is said that the

bliss that occurs indeep sleep is experienced in samadhi as well, but

how is that to bereconciled with the statement that sleep is a state

of nescience?""That is why sleep also is to be rejected," Bhagavan

replied. "It is truethat there is bliss in sleep but one is not aware

of it. One only knowsabout it afterwards when one wakes up and says

that one slept well. Samadhimeans experiencing this bliss while

remaining awake.""So it means waking or conscious sleep? I

asked.""Yes, that is so," he said.My sister-in-law then brought up

the other cognate question that had worriedher. "It is said in

Vasishta that a Jnani seems to others to be engaged invarious

activities, but actually he is not affected by them at all. Is

itbecause of their different outlook that it seems so to others, or

is hereally unaffected?""He is really unaffected," Bhagavan

replied."People speak of favourable visions both in dream and while

awake; what arethey?" she asked."To a Jnani they all seem the same,"

he replied.However she persisted: "It is stated in Bhagavan's

biography3 that GanapatiMuni had a vision of Bhagavan when he was at

Tiruvottiyur and Bhagavan atTiruvannamalai and that at the very same

time Bhagavan had a feeling ofaccepting homage. How can such things

be described?"________3 - See

Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, p. 96, by

ArthurOsborne, Rider & Co. (Editor.)Bhagavan answered cryptically: "I

have already stated that such things arewhat are known as divine

visions." He then assumed silence, indicating thathe was not willing

to continue the talk.4________4 -

See the footnote on 'Silence', in Nagamma's previous letter in

TheMountain Path of April, 1964.

(Editor)./joinAll paths

go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

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