[NoDoer] What is consciousness ?

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Hi jb,

 

This is a classic question between Buddhism and Advaita.

 

*Many* Buddhist tenet systems, but *not all*, say NO to your question.

 

Advaita Vedanta says YES, and characterizes consciousness as "The

I-Principle,the Unseen Seer,That which appearances appear to," and

many many other things.

 

It can get very intellectual, but on the other hand, you can go with that

wqhich draws you....

 

--Greg

 

At 04:09 PM 4/18/01 -0000, JB789 wrote:

>>>>

Hi,

 

My question is, is there a consciousness which is not conditioned and

independent of conditions ?

 

The following, might sound at first a bit intellectual, but if you

just check the pointers out along the way, it might become of living

significance.

(For me, personally, the last 24 hours, I've been burning with it.)

 

When in Thailand, at the entrance of a Buddhist temple, there was

sold a book called 'What is Buddhism' written by Dr. Rahula, who is,

I believe, one of the Buddhist scholars that had dialogues with J.

Krishnamurti.

He writes that one of Buddha's disciples said that consciousness is

himself/his soul/atman/spirit, which experiences other things.

Buddha replied: 'Oh venerable Bikku, how can you speak so

stupidly..'(yes I was surprized too)..

and he continues to explain (my summary):

the self/I is nothing independant, but a compound of 5 Aggregates:

the material body, sensations, perceptions, mental formations and

consciousness.

All these are interdependant. Consciousnes arises only when one of

these aggregates arises. Because of their coordination, one of the 51

mental formations (!.. think that they can be counted ?!) arises

which is the idea of an independant identity ('I').

 

According to the Buddha, consciousness is not something independantly

self-existing, but arises and passes away just like any thought,

bodily condition, etc. and along with them.

He also gives the analogy of that fire, is not something independant

and is called wood-fire when burning on wood, straw-fire when burning

on straw etc. (at least that's how they named it at that time).. and

the same with consciousness.

 

I remember once at a meeting with J. Krishnamurti, in Switzerland, a

person, somewhat Vedantic in his views, said to K. in a very

conclusive tone of voice : 'My thoughts come and go, my emotions come

and go, but I, remain !'.

K. replied: 'No Sir, You _also_ come and go'.

(Well, he (the enquirer) apparently did not agree, so he became a

disciple of a Vedantic teacher.)

 

Now, is it so for you, that consciousness arises only along with its

objects ?..

If so, is there only _this kind_ of consciousness, which is temporal,

dependant .. ?

Is there only a Consciousness OF ..?

 

I do not want to bring in the word 'awareness'.. that might

complicate things and add another concept for the mind to play with

and have an easy explanation/way out.

But my question remains,.. if there is nothing else, independant and

self-existing/created .. a presence-alive, untouched by any

conditions/arisings, ..

the 'we' are doomed, are we not ?..

And then, what is that 'eternal, boundless, uncaused' something

that 'they' talk about ?

 

Implicit in this is another question: if all this activity of being

aware OF thoughts/feelings is only an exercize of the consciousness-

OF.. temporal, and dependant on the aggregates (the 'I') and just

another aggregate,.. then is there any genuine freeing potential in

this activity, at all ?

 

Put shortly, is there a something, which like a mirror, though it

reflects the objects reflected in it, is independant of them and

_unlike_ the consciousness-OF, is _Present regardless_ of any

arisings or lack of, of the aggregates ?

 

And being only a compound of temporal, interdependant and conditioned

aggregates, how am 'I' going to find out ?

 

What do you say/see ?

 

jb.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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