What is consciousness ?

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

My question is, is there a consciousness which is not conditioned and

independent of conditions ?

 

The following, might sound at first a bit intellectual, but if you

just check the pointers out along the way, it might become of living

significance.

(For me, personally, the last 24 hours, I've been burning with it.)

 

When in Thailand, at the entrance of a Buddhist temple, there was

sold a book called 'What is Buddhism' written by Dr. Rahula, who is,

I believe, one of the Buddhist scholars that had dialogues with J.

Krishnamurti.

He writes that one of Buddha's disciples said that consciousness is

himself/his soul/atman/spirit, which experiences other things.

Buddha replied: 'Oh venerable Bikku, how can you speak so

stupidly..'(yes I was surprized too)..

and he continues to explain (my summary):

the self/I is nothing independant, but a compound of 5 Aggregates:

the material body, sensations, perceptions, mental formations and

consciousness.

All these are interdependant. Consciousnes arises only when one of

these aggregates arises. Because of their coordination, one of the 51

mental formations (!.. think that they can be counted ?!) arises

which is the idea of an independant identity ('I').

 

According to the Buddha, consciousness is not something independantly

self-existing, but arises and passes away just like any thought,

bodily condition, etc. and along with them.

He also gives the analogy of that fire, is not something independant

and is called wood-fire when burning on wood, straw-fire when burning

on straw etc. (at least that's how they named it at that time).. and

the same with consciousness.

 

I remember once at a meeting with J. Krishnamurti, in Switzerland, a

person, somewhat Vedantic in his views, said to K. in a very

conclusive tone of voice : 'My thoughts come and go, my emotions come

and go, but I, remain !'.

K. replied: 'No Sir, You _also_ come and go'.

(Well, he (the enquirer) apparently did not agree, so he became a

disciple of a Vedantic teacher.)

 

Now, is it so for you, that consciousness arises only along with its

objects ?..

If so, is there only _this kind_ of consciousness, which is temporal,

dependant .. ?

Is there only a Consciousness OF ..?

 

I do not want to bring in the word 'awareness'.. that might

complicate things and add another concept for the mind to play with

and have an easy explanation/way out.

But my question remains,.. if there is nothing else, independant and

self-existing/created .. a presence-alive, untouched by any

conditions/arisings, ..

the 'we' are doomed, are we not ?..

And then, what is that 'eternal, boundless, uncaused' something

that 'they' talk about ?

 

Implicit in this is another question: if all this activity of being

aware OF thoughts/feelings is only an exercize of the consciousness-

OF.. temporal, and dependant on the aggregates (the 'I') and just

another aggregate,.. then is there any genuine freeing potential in

this activity, at all ?

 

Put shortly, is there a something, which like a mirror, though it

reflects the objects reflected in it, is independant of them and

_unlike_ the consciousness-OF, is _Present regardless_ of any

arisings or lack of, of the aggregates ?

 

And being only a compound of temporal, interdependant and conditioned

aggregates, how am 'I' going to find out ?

 

What do you say/see ?

 

jb.

[Guest guest]

, "Gill Collingwood" <gill@n...> wrote:

> Firstly, I don't think it's possible to be conscious without being

> conscious *of* something

 

Consider this just as a thought experiment:

 

Do you think it's possible to /only/ be conscious of consciousness

and nothing else ?

>, even if that something is something as

> simple as 'bliss'. It seems to me that if one is conscious of

> something, then there is probably some sense of an 'I' that is

> seperate from that something, as well.

>If one was to become so

> enlightened as to completely lose one's sense of self, then I don't

> think one could remain conscious at all... after all, *who* would

>be conscious?

 

The sense of self is usually rooted in the experience of verbalized

thoughts, emotive thoughts and body thoughts = body sensations.

 

Dreamless sleep (certain phases of non REM sleep) is characterized by

absence of verbalized thoughts, images of dreaming sleep and body

sensations (due to downregulated activity of areas of the sensory

cortex). This absence gives a sense of existence which is

attributeless, i.e. without a sense of self separate from the sensing

alone.

 

As alien as the attributeless being in dreamless sleep sounds, the

attributeless sensing state is always present in waking life as well,

but it's very difficult to see because of habit, deeply rooted

societal beliefs and probably a biological component.

 

In seeing verbalized thoughts, emotions and body sensations, these

are seen to be consciousness too.

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.