Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Hi Ho... In the Buddhist terms of reference we have "consciousness" or mind or citta. Consciousness is taken up for study first because the focus of the Buddhist analysis of reality is experience, and consciousness is the principle element in experience, it is that which constitutes the knowing or awareness of an object. Citta comes from the root citi, to cognize, to know. Consciousness is an agent which cognizes an object, is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors or events cognize the object and as an activity is nothing other than the process of cognizing the object. There is only matter and mind (nama and rupa - all the aggregates) BUT, consciousness is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from cognizing any object. The definitions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition. So this citta, or mind, or consciousness, is nothing other than the act of cognizing, and that act is necessarily impermanent, marked by rise and fall. (coming and going) While consciousness has a single characteristic of cognizing or knowing an object, a characteristic that remains the same in all diverse manifestations, it can be distinguished into a variety of types. What we usually think of as mind or consciousness are really a series of cittas, momentary acts of consciousness, occurring in such a rapid succession that we cannot distinguish the discrete occassions, which are of diverse types. So in the Buddhist Abhidhamma, the types of consciousness are distinguished and also woven into a cosmos, a unified and closely interwoven whole. Clinging or identifying with any objects in consciousness as belonging to any "I" is suffering (separation). Also the explanation of constant death and rebirth, moment to moment of this "I". Freedom is the cessation of clinging to any of it. no "I" no object. All phenomena are the product of mind and as such are impermanent, no-self and suffering when clinging is present. The "I" will arise with its object and then disappear again. It is an interesting object for contemplation. So then one has to look into what "emptiness" is. And the intrinsic nature of being, the intrinsic nature of all phenomena which is already present, the clear light. In delusion, when involved with consciousness and its mental events, we fail to recognize the intrinsic clarity of being which is uncreated, unborn and thus we fall into delusion (me, mine, self, other etc). The Sufi's call this intrinsic awareness the clear light of intelligence beyond all boundaries. Same expression as in Tibetan Dzogchen. "Here your mind stretches beyond its individual boundaries to encompass the thinking of the Universe. It is a state where you recover the experiences of levels where consciousness is absorbed into its ground, which is intelligence. Sufis call this unveiling the light of Divine Intelligence that has been covered over by the veils of delusion. It corresponds with the last words of Buddha, "I have overcome determinism." In other words, it is the ultimate, absolute freedom from all things that have locked you into a rut - your thinking (cognizng) self-image, actions, opinions, separateness - and that block your seeing your participation with the totality of the universe". From "Awakening" - Pir Vilayat Khan Zap -at this point - awakening, lightening strikes,the vajra of the Tibetans. To this point practice can be willed, insight slowly gained, but there seems to be a point when "grace" or non-willing insight, also called "path consciousness" final insight into nirvana/freedom arises. All sentient beings freed. As Rumi sez "Honor those who try to rid themselves of lying, who empty the self and have only clear being. I, you, he, she, we, in the garden of mystic lovers these are not true distinctions. Let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love." The fire is finally freed when no more fuel is added on to it. And one finds this out for oneself by really looking. Cheers, Joyce > > My question is, is there a consciousness which is not conditioned and > independent of conditions ? > > The following, might sound at first a bit intellectual, but if you > just check the pointers out along the way, it might become of living > significance. > (For me, personally, the last 24 hours, I've been burning with it.) > > When in Thailand, at the entrance of a Buddhist temple, there was > sold a book called 'What is Buddhism' written by Dr. Rahula, who is, > I believe, one of the Buddhist scholars that had dialogues with J. > Krishnamurti. > He writes that one of Buddha's disciples said that consciousness is > himself/his soul/atman/spirit, which experiences other things. > Buddha replied: 'Oh venerable Bikku, how can you speak so > stupidly..'(yes I was surprized too).. > and he continues to explain (my summary): > the self/I is nothing independant, but a compound of 5 Aggregates: > the material body, sensations, perceptions, mental formations and > consciousness. > All these are interdependant. Consciousnes arises only when one of > these aggregates arises. Because of their coordination, one of the 51 > mental formations (!.. think that they can be counted ?!) arises > which is the idea of an independant identity ('I'). > > According to the Buddha, consciousness is not something independantly > self-existing, but arises and passes away just like any thought, > bodily condition, etc. and along with them. > He also gives the analogy of that fire, is not something independant > and is called wood-fire when burning on wood, straw-fire when burning > on straw etc. (at least that's how they named it at that time).. and > the same with consciousness. > > I remember once at a meeting with J. Krishnamurti, in Switzerland, a > person, somewhat Vedantic in his views, said to K. in a very > conclusive tone of voice : 'My thoughts come and go, my emotions come > and go, but I, remain !'. > K. replied: 'No Sir, You _also_ come and go'. > (Well, he (the enquirer) apparently did not agree, so he became a > disciple of a Vedantic teacher.) > > Now, is it so for you, that consciousness arises only along with its > objects ?.. > If so, is there only _this kind_ of consciousness, which is temporal, > dependant .. ? > Is there only a Consciousness OF ..? > > I do not want to bring in the word 'awareness'.. that might > complicate things and add another concept for the mind to play with > and have an easy explanation/way out. > But my question remains,.. if there is nothing else, independant and > self-existing/created .. a presence-alive, untouched by any > conditions/arisings, .. > the 'we' are doomed, are we not ?.. > And then, what is that 'eternal, boundless, uncaused' something > that 'they' talk about ? > > Implicit in this is another question: if all this activity of being > aware OF thoughts/feelings is only an exercize of the consciousness- > OF.. temporal, and dependant on the aggregates (the 'I') and just > another aggregate,.. then is there any genuine freeing potential in > this activity, at all ? > > Put shortly, is there a something, which like a mirror, though it > reflects the objects reflected in it, is independant of them and > _unlike_ the consciousness-OF, is _Present regardless_ of any > arisings or lack of, of the aggregates ? > > And being only a compound of temporal, interdependant and conditioned > aggregates, how am 'I' going to find out ? > > What do you say/see ? > > jb. > Sponsor > <http://rd./M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700075991:N/ > A=639284/?http://rd./M=131860.1389494.2986703.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700 > 075991:N/A=639284/R=0/O=1/I=season-mom01/b5/*/promo > tions/momsday01/>Click Here! > > > NoDoer- > > > > Your use of is subject to the > <> > <<<< > > > > > /join > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Hi JB, Lobster, et al, >>My question is, is there a consciousness which is not conditioned and >>independent of conditions ? >Lobster: >LOL >The burning is more important than the focus . . . >m m m . . . >What is the condition of your consciousness before life >after death and during unconscious sleep? >The 'I' is nowhere to be experienced. >What you mean (perhaps) is do 'I' exist >when the conditions that make 'I' unique no >longer exist. What do you WANT to believe? >What do you feel is the reality of the situation? >The idea of the eternal void or eternal deity >is not (in Buddhism) based on preference >but experience. Yes! I like what Jamgun Kongtrul says: >The essential point of all the modes of Dharma taught by the > Buddha >can be epitomized as a method to subdue one's mind. >The entryway into the initial mind practice >is surely renunciation, without which there is no way. >If authentic renunciation arises, compulsive activities will be few; >if activities are few, the significance of non-action will be near. >When non-action is realized, it is the true nature.84 >There is no other buddha outside of that. > >There are many categories of view, meditation, and action, >but when applied to one's own mind, >the view is absolute conviction in the true nature; >meditation is assimilating that meaning in one's being; >and action is recognizing anything that happens as that view > and meditation. >It follows that the fruition will be the actualization of things as > they are. > >The root of delusion is one's own mind grasping >external appearances as being truly existent. >Whatever creation or completion stage meditations are > employed, >all are intended as methods to reverse this attachment to the > reality of deluded appearance. >If stubborn habits of attachment and aversion are not reversed, >then meditation is as meaningless as a gopher hibernating in a > hole. >.... >All phenomena are subsumed under the two truths: >the relative truth is true with respect to delusion, >and the absolute truth is true with respect to true nature. >The definition of "truth" is that it is without deception. >If you know that the two truths are inseparable, like the moon > in water, >then the extinction of deluded appearance is close at hand. >.... >It is said that if you understand mind, knowing this one thing > illuminates everything, >but if you don't understand mind, knowing everything > obscures the one thing. >The great master Noble Nagarjuna said it this way: >"Where there is appropriate understanding of emptiness, all > things are appropriate, >and if there is no appropriate understanding of emptiness, > nothing is." >.... >In short, the essential meaning is this: understand the essential > points of meditation; >do not fall under the power of mediocrity in external manners; >and inwardly, exert effort tempered just right. >These shouid be understood as the signs of obtaining stability. >Non-meditation is the exhaustion of effort. >Although there is nothing to meditate on, there is something > to get used to.153 >For the sake of habituation, while eating, resting, going, or > staying, >in all activities, it is crucial not to give in to distraction. > >When alone, you can relax and maintain true nature. >When in a crowd, the powers of mindfulness, awareness, and > clarity need to be carefully guarded. >Since mindful awareness in essence has no true existence, >there is nothing to attend to, but there is something to establish. >Since it is awareness-emptiness, it is somewhat difficult to > establish, >but once you are used to it, it will be like meeting an old > acquaintance. >Whatever appearances, sounds, or thoughts occur, >there is not one iota that is not an aspect of awareness itself. > >The esoteric instructions of exceptional Atiyoga154 speak of >the distinction between mind and intrinsic awareness. >Mindfulness cannot grasp the nature of clear light - >this abstruse aspect, with movement and memory, that is difficult > to cut through, is mind. >With no object of cognizance, the nature of clear light is seen - >this radiant aspect abides like a candle. >The latter is like the sudden fright without a known object, >but when it is recognized, confidence is established. >It is said that awareness is empty of movement, unborn, and > liberated - >it is seeing the analogy, not just the words of emptiness. >These are the direct oral precepts of the lineage, which are like > the heart's blood. >.... >Uncontrived reality does not need to be sustained continuously: >one incident recalled is sufficient, >as was taught by the previous Kagyu156 masters. >By meditating on the essence, the karmic obscurations of many > eons >are purified, and furthermore, the vital wind enters the central > channel157 automatically. >There are other benefits too great to speak of. >If you know your own nature, it is the knowledge of the one > thing that liberates all. >.... >In sustaining non-focusing, the mixing of basic space and > intrinsic awareness >is enhanced by mixing the source, mind, with the center of > space >or the depths of the ocean to illuminate mindfulness. >At that time awareness-emptiness without center or circumference > arises. > >Three things are said to pose the danger of misunderstanding: >emptiness, calm abiding, and neutrality. > >Emptiness means freedom from the extremes of existence and > non-existence, >birth and cessation, eternalism and nihilism. >It is called an experience in awareness, unimaginable, > inconceivable, and ineffable. > >Calm abiding is thoroughly pacifying the churning of thoughts >and resting the mind evenly, without center or circumference, >abiding like the ocean without waves. > >Neutrality is when the power of mindful awareness weakens, >and you pursue the subtle mental movements. >When mindful awareness arrives, it is more like hindsight. >It is like water flowing through grass: >you see it only when it comes out the other side. > >During meditation, if a state of neutrality occurs, >single it out, that is, tighten up the mindful awareness. >.... >In the completely perfect sense, there is no meditation and > nothing to meditate on. >When mindfulness alone is enough, it is the peak of practice. >In the ultimate sense, even mindfulness itself does not exist. >When the basis of mindfulness is absolved in basic space we > speak of wisdom. >As when fuel is used up the fire is also extinguished, >when delusion is used up the remedy itself is eliminated. >This is the sphere of activity of all noble ones. > >It is not meditation, nor is it non-meditation. >Not being meditation, there is nothing at all to focus on, >and not being non-meditation, there can be no distraction. >Simply place the mind on the bare apprehension of the nature > of reality. >This is not a thought-object of the rational mind >because the absolute is beyond intellect and without reference > point. >If the intimate connection between thought and object is not > severed, >although you call it "uncontrived," it cannot reverse delusion. >Severing the inner perceiver and the external object >may be called self-arising self-liberating, but it is still duality. >When there is no antidote it is self-arising self-liberating. > >One's very own mind is the child appearing to the mother. >Like bubbles rising out of water, appearances arise out of > attachment >and yet if you know that it is the play of nonduality, >then this is what is meant by appearance and mind being the > meeting of mother and child. >You won't find cyclic existence and transcendence, good and > bad, realized and unrealized, >or rejection and acceptance - emptiness and completion were > always present. >All view, meditation and action is included in that, >and since all the commitments to preserve are also included in > that, >the Great Perfection Atiyoga teaches >four commitments160 to preserve that are kept by not preserving. >Being without interruption in preservation is the commitment > of "non-existence," >being free of duality is "evenness," >everything being perfect in mind is "singularity," >and this completion in itself without anything else is > "spontaneously perfect." >This is the ultimate intention of the victorious ones of the > three times. > > > - Jamgon Kongtrul, _Creation and Completion_ > >------- > > NOTES > >84. gnas lugs: literally, the way of abiding. The true nature or >natural > condition of all phenomena. > >153. This is a play with the term "gom" (bsgom), meditation, and the > word from which it derives, "gom" (goms) becoming habituated or > getting used to something. > >154. Atiyoga, the highest vehicle in the Ancient tradition, equivalent to > the Great Perfection. See note 139. > >139. rnal 'byor chen po, Skt. mahayoga: in the system of classification of > the Ancient tradition (rnying ma), there are six tantric >vehicles: > Kriyatantra, Caryatantra, Yogatantra, Mahayoga, Anuyoga, and > Atiyoga (Skt.), each one "higher" than the last, culminating in > Atiyoga, or the Great Perfection. > >156. bka' brgyud: "oral instruction lineage," one of the four main > schools of Tibetan Buddhism that established a large monastic net- > work. See the "Buddhism in Tibet" section of the introduction. > >157. rtsa dbu ma, Skt. avadhuti: the main channel or energy pathway > (rtsa, Skt. nadi) of the psycho-physical body through which >the vital > winds (rlung, Skt. prana) and seminal drops (thig le, Skt. bindu) > move. It is visualized as being approximately along the inner >side of > the backbone. It is a goal of yogic practice to bring the >vital winds > into the central channel, causing the realization of true nature. > Conversely, by recognizing the intrinsic nature of mind, the >vital > winds will enter spontaneously into the central channel. > >160. dam tshig, Skt. samaya: the "sacred word" or covenant in Vajrayana > between the disciple and the guru, and also the commitment to >the > practices received from the guru. There are different sets of >specific > commitments from different tantras. These are the "four great >spe- > cial commitments" (khyed par chen po'i dam tshig bzhi) >associated > with Atiyoga: non-existence (med pa), evenness (phyal ba), singu- > larity (gcig pu) and spontaneous presence (Ihun grub, although >here > it is Ihun rdzogs). Kongtrul addresses them further in his >Treasury of > Knowledge (shes bya mdzod), vol. II, p. 194. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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