Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Dear T, I think that when we start seeing Kundalini in a different light, more as our innate process of self regeneration, an in-born auto-therapy that can be trusted, and when we see the stuff that comes up with Kundalini (real or not or whatever) as that which contributed to our loss of original self (imagined, illusive or not), or as signs of progress (real or imagined or otherwise), then there is no problem with Kundalini the way you state it: > Kundalini is as real as the mind. > In fact is it not the mind or the direction of attention, for it is extant? > It is all in the imagination of the mind and doesn't lead to 'moksha' Whatever K is, however we formulate or define K, whether it be mental or physical, real or illusive... we seem to want to deal with something here... however "extant" it is, whatever your meaning of the word is. No matter what, you are dealing with something here for many years already... The proof is in the emails that you write, something extant enough for you to write about it. And that is good..., very good in fact... So thanks... Compare the kundalini process to the healing process that your body employs after you have been physically wounded. One cleanses the wound by taking out or expelling the grit, the bullet, the fragments, the sickening agent. You either do it yourself, have it done or the inflammation and puss will take care of it and bring it all to the surface. When the wound is in its final healing stages, you will see lots of scabs, new skin forming, scar tissue or eventually some vague leftover skin marks. Kundalini is like that but it works on societal, emotional, psychological and spiritual wounds, very often in a complex mix with physical stresses that are caused by those wounds (Or those physical stresses may even have cause an array of non physical wounds.) Let's deal with kundalini that way... a self healing mechanism that works. (A life time warranty at birth: "When all else fails use K, just add love.) Dealing with the kundalini process the wrong way, (and you are right when you say that that happens all too often) the wrong way is like dramatizing symptoms and afflictions the way some people who are attached to their physical ailments advertise them: "Look at my scars", "Look at my cast! Do you want to sign it?" or "The third time I am hospitalized and now I'm in for a triple bypass." That is like poking at the bone fragments, or picking at scabs and showing them off to the world. Of course the wounds will take longer to heal, they may even reinfect and not be healed for a long time. The kundalini process, when it can run its course with trust, support and understanding leads towards its own disappearance until eventually only 'moksha' remains... No scar tissue here! It is important though, for the time being, that the marks of this process are being talked about. The specifics of the process have to be written about for people to recognize what it is they are experiencing. So that they may know that they are in fact healing themselves, in spite of the fact that the signposts are pointing the other way, turned around by non-compassionate, mis-understanding individuals who would be begrudging someone else's liberation, being afraid that they will be left out in the cold, all by themselves. Itzhak Bentov called the process the "Physio-Kundalini Syndrome", Yvonne Kason MD wrote a very good book on this ("A Farther Shore"). The way it is now, we have to a self-diagnose, as medical people hardly have an inkling about this.... and when confronted with people who show these signs they may end up sending them to mental institutions, prescribing the wrong medication (there is some helpful medication), or (and you know enough about that)...these people may end up in non beneficial quasi-liberating environments where these people can be led astray even more by, as you might say, "Manipulative miracle workers." Love, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 But Tony, > ....For K cannot bestow liberation in itself, for one is only truly > aware when the 'attention', returns to the 'Heart Centre'. K. as the cleansing process does not "bestow", I fully agree, and as I said what "remains" is 'moksha' as it was never lost... And about the Heart centre, oh Tony am I ever aware of that, and did the self regeneration process ever help there... Seems like you are reverting back to your original view of K and have not seriously tried my suggestion about K as a reclamation, self restoration, self origination process. I can tell you have not... otherwise you would have agreed .... hehehe OK OK OK And in a previous post you wrote: > Thought came before matter for matter is thought Nought came before thought or woughs it 'whought nought'? Another email coming up shortly dealing with that... Loughve, Wim (methinks i think you think too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear T, > > I think that when we start seeing Kundalini in a different light, more as > our innate process of self regeneration, an in-born auto-therapy that can be > trusted, and when we see the stuff that comes up with Kundalini (real or not > or whatever) as that which contributed to our loss of original self > (imagined, illusive or not), or as signs of progress (real or imagined or > otherwise), then there is no problem with Kundalini the way you state it: > > > Kundalini is as real as the mind. > > In fact is it not the mind or the direction of attention, for it is > extant? > > It is all in the imagination of the mind and doesn't lead to 'moksha' > > Whatever K is, however we formulate or define K, whether it be mental or > physical, real or illusive... we seem to want to deal with something here... > however "extant" it is, whatever your meaning of the word is. > No matter what, you are dealing with something here for many years > already... The proof is in the emails that you write, something extant > enough for you to write about it. And that is good..., very good in fact... > > So thanks... > > Compare the kundalini process to the healing process that your body employs > after you have been physically wounded. One cleanses the wound by taking out > or expelling the grit, the bullet, the fragments, the sickening agent. You > either do it yourself, have it done or the inflammation and puss will take > care of it and bring it all to the surface. When the wound is in its final > healing stages, you will see lots of scabs, new skin forming, scar tissue or > eventually some vague leftover skin marks. > Kundalini is like that but it works on societal, emotional, psychological > and spiritual wounds, very often in a complex mix with physical stresses > that are caused by those wounds (Or those physical stresses may even have > cause an array of non physical wounds.) > > Let's deal with kundalini that way... a self healing mechanism that works. > (A life time warranty at birth: "When all else fails use K, just add love.) > > Dealing with the kundalini process the wrong way, (and you are right when > you say that that happens all too often) the wrong way is like dramatizing > symptoms and afflictions the way some people who are attached to their > physical ailments advertise them: "Look at my scars", "Look at my cast! Do > you want to sign it?" or "The third time I am hospitalized and now I'm in > for a triple bypass." > That is like poking at the bone fragments, or picking at scabs and showing > them off to the world. Of course the wounds will take longer to heal, they > may even reinfect and not be healed for a long time. > > The kundalini process, when it can run its course with trust, support and > understanding leads towards its own disappearance until eventually only > 'moksha' remains... > No scar tissue here! > > It is important though, for the time being, that the marks of this process > are being talked about. The specifics of the process have to be written > about for people to recognize what it is they are experiencing. So that they > may know that they are in fact healing themselves, in spite of the fact that > the signposts are pointing the other way, turned around by > non-compassionate, mis-understanding individuals who would be begrudging > someone else's liberation, being afraid that they will be left out in the > cold, all by themselves. > > Itzhak Bentov called the process the "Physio-Kundalini Syndrome", Yvonne > Kason MD wrote a very good book on this ("A Farther Shore"). > The way it is now, we have to a self-diagnose, as medical people hardly have > an inkling about this.... and when confronted with people who show these > signs they may end up sending them to mental institutions, prescribing the > wrong medication (there is some helpful medication), or (and you know enough > about that)...these people may end up in non beneficial quasi-liberating > environments where these people can be led astray even more by, as you might > say, "Manipulative miracle workers." > > Love, Wim Namaste Wim et al, All very good but to put it in another perspective. K is none other than the mind, or our awareness of it. We are shifting our attention so to speak, which gives an impression of movement. It is something that would be better meditating through rather than be delayed by such. For K cannot bestow liberation in itself, for one is only truly aware when the 'attention', returns to the 'Heart Centre'. I suppose it is like comparing to the rising sun. We move from a state of inertia or tamas, to a state of activity or rajas, which can be compared to K. When the heavy tamas and active rajas is dispelled than sattva shines forth before moksha. They say realisation appears like a blazing sudden sun. So realisation can only take place with the destruction of K or the mind, 'I'. It is said that the mind rises in the amrita nadi and then travels to the brain, and returns to the Heart Centre during sleep. Not from the muladhara to the sahasrara. However this is all in the mind, most K can be channeled by spiritual exercises such as rosary or japa, then transcended. As opposed to a preoccuption with prana K experiences which are ultimately unreal, and only a cleansing process. My involvement with miracle manipulative miracle worker, came as a result for my misperception that he was realised. As I am not realised I could not recognise the positives, only the negatives which I eventually did and realised my illusion and mental projection. Om Namah Sivaya....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > > But Tony, > > > ....For K cannot bestow liberation in itself, for one is only truly > > aware when the 'attention', returns to the 'Heart Centre'. > > K. as the cleansing process does not "bestow", I fully agree, and as I said > what "remains" is 'moksha' as it was never lost... > > And about the Heart centre, oh Tony am I ever aware of that, and did the > self regeneration process ever help there... > > Seems like you are reverting back to your original view of K and have not > seriously tried my suggestion about K as a reclamation, self restoration, > self origination process. I can tell you have not... otherwise you would > have agreed .... hehehe OK OK OK > > And in a previous post you wrote: > > Thought came before matter for matter is thought > > Nought came before thought or woughs it 'whought nought'? > Another email coming up shortly dealing with that... > > Loughve, Wim > > (methinks i think you think too much Namaste Wim et al, Every sadhana is a self reclamation process, and I did say that K is really what people call the cleansing prana working on the inner sheaths. K in itself cannot lead to moksa anymore than the manifest world, which is also K, can. K is really the mind and one has to rise above the mind to gain or regain Moksha. There seems to me to be much preoccupation with K experiences as if that is the end all of all, when it is the Heart Centre that is the end all. I just suggest navigating through K experiences, as they are mind, with some spiritual sadhana, then the mind will be cleansed as a matter of course. Thought is the manifestation of Saguna Brahman, which in itself is an illusion of course. Talking relatively there is only thought or mind. ...Om Namah Sivaya...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Hi Tony, >Every sadhana is a self reclamation process, and I did say that K is >really what people call the cleansing prana working on the inner >sheaths. >snip< > >K is really the mind and one has to rise >above the mind to gain or regain Moksha. There seems to me to be much >preoccupation with K experiences >snip< When your Kundalini goes _physically_ active, and the powerful and wonderful energy that is Mother Shakti herself moves up your spine and throughout your body, then you will understand of your own experience. Until that happens, why bother with theoretical talk about it? Om Namah Shivaya! Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Dear Tony, You wrote: > ...'I am not realised'... So why not? What kind of special reason do you have, that you are not. What makes you think you are so special in your impediments or whatever, that you are not able to recover 'moksha'? Whatever answer you come up with, is exactly that what holds you back. Unless you say, "You know what Wim, I'm going to give myself the benefit of the doubt..., and I'm going to take it from there." This is not a mechanical engineering job, this self-restoration, if it were it would be good and prudent to err on the side of caution, in this case one better err on the side of freedom. That requires practice, can be a bit disconcerting to see yourself in a different light, but might that not be meaning of Sadhana, right practice? Love, Wim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Hi Dharma,et al, I talk from experience, in fact an almost daily experience in preliminary chakra meditations, up to and including the sahasrara. I have had experiences since I was a child, however my most dramatic was in 1985 where the bolt to my heart chakra was so intense I fell over from my padma asana position. I rarely speculate or talk about things I haven't experienced. I will always point out that 'I am not realised', or 'it is said', etc. My opinion is the same, preoccupation with K experiences is really no better than with body consciousness, albeit more subtle. Some people whose inner sheaths do not need the cleansing prana, commonly known as K, do not even have these experiences. Again K doesn't end in moksha, siddhis perhaps, and even more attachment to the illusory experiences. It is not spirituality in the true sense, just a step for some on the way. It is all ultimately in the imagination. Bliss itself may be the last greatest impediment to moksha. Mother Sakti doesn't move up the bodies, her prana does! Om Namah Sivaya......Tony. , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote: > Hi Tony, > > >Every sadhana is a self reclamation process, and I did say that K is > >really what people call the cleansing prana working on the inner > >sheaths. > >snip< > > > >K is really the mind and one has to rise > >above the mind to gain or regain Moksha. There seems to me to be much > >preoccupation with K experiences > >snip< > > When your Kundalini goes _physically_ active, and the powerful and > wonderful energy that is Mother Shakti herself moves up your spine and > throughout your body, then you will understand of your own experience. > > Until that happens, why bother with theoretical talk about it? > > Om Namah Shivaya! > > Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote: > Dear Tony, > > You wrote: > > ...'I am not realised'... > > So why not? > What kind of special reason do you have, that you are not. > What makes you think you are so special in your impediments or whatever, > that you are not able to recover 'moksha'? > > Whatever answer you come up with, is exactly that what holds you back. > Unless you say, "You know what Wim, I'm going to give myself the benefit of > the doubt..., and I'm going to take it from there." > > This is not a mechanical engineering job, this self-restoration, if it were > it would be good and prudent to err on the side of caution, in this case one > better err on the side of freedom. > > That requires practice, can be a bit disconcerting to see yourself in a > different light, but might that not be meaning of Sadhana, right practice? > > Love, Wim Namaste Wim, If I was realised and had moksha, I wouldn't be writing here for one thing. Calling myself a King isn't going to make me one, that's for sure. You say, whatever answer, that I give, holds me back, when in fact it is my karma that holds me back. The flower will open and bloom when it is supposed to. It is more a matter of surrendering than conditioning, conditioning only happens in the mind..........Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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