Joy of Body

[Guest guest]

Hi Christopher,

 

Well, to begin with, the previous post re "body" came up relative to the

views expressed in Advaita (Astavakra Samhita) in reference to the

experience of the true man of Self-knowledge. And here the reference was to

'attachment' to the material as mis-identification. "I" am my body.

>

> but you forget several things ...

 

Nope. Astavakra seems to have "forgotten" them, wonder why.

>

> The material that does the thinking is composed of exactly the same

> types of cells that make up the body .. and if we forget the body, then

> the brain dies.

 

Yes, Im gathering you believe that the brain, or some "material" in the body

does the thinking and so the cells in the body/brain compose the "person"

who lives in the body, probably in the brain? Thus when the brain dies

thats that?

> In fact, there is no quicker way to block the mind than block the anus.

 

There's no way to block the mind, and why would one feel this necessary?

Either leads to constipation! "Who" would want to do this?

>

> The other thing I cannot see in your writing .. is the role of the

> unconscious .. that part of the reactionary mind which leads

> the cognisant mind by about half a second ..

 

I haven't written anything at all about the "unconscious". We are all

unconscious most of the time.

>

> Neither can I see anywhere any reference to the fact that in between

> Eastern and Western .. the conscious is reversed .. ie in the East, the

> Unconscious is outside the body .. whilst in the West .. because of

> denial, the Unconscious is located in the cells of the body.

 

"Zen straightforwardly enters into the depth of mind and breaks through it

by becoming completely identical with it. This is called the Great Death -

because it signifies the complete denial of human consciousness, including

any such Jungian notion of the collective unconsciousness. And yet the

Great Death in Zen is at one and the same time a resurrection in the Great

Life - because this is breaking through of mind, not only is the realization

that mind is unattainable or unknowable included, but also the realization

that mind is unattainable or the unknowlable is precisely the true Mind or

true Sel". and so on. But no talk about where any of this is located in

the body - never have come across that.

>

> Now .. over the last few days, this list has been witnessing a whole

> lot of reactions from a number of people. Where do these reactions

> come from .. the unconscious "body mind" .. those memories

> stored in the cells of the physical material that go to make up

> the thinking organ called the brain ..

 

"For the human imagination is not a psychiatric nor a physiological problem,

it is not a biological one. It is a field of its own with its own peculiar

laws. Its nature cannot be deduced from the principles of other sciences

without doing violence to the idiosyncrasies of the psyche. It cannot be

identified with the brain, or the hormones or any other known instinct, for

better or worse it must be accepted as a phenomena unique in its kind.

 

Intellectual or supposedly scientific theories are not adequate to the

nature of the unconscious, because they make use of a terminology which has

not the slightest affinity with its pregnant symbolism. The approach,

therefore, must be plastic and symbolical and itself the outcome of personal

experience with unconscious contents. It should not stray too far in the

direction of abstract intellectualism; hence we are best advised to remain

within the framework of traditional mythology." Jung

 

So - Im not equipped to debate western scientific notions such as cells

think or where the thinking occurs. Can you right now, follow thought and

tell me where it originated from and where it disappears to? This includes

the thought "memories are stored in the brains cells". And beyond heresay or

the hypothetical.

 

Thought just occurs, like any appearance it comes and goes. "memory" is used

by relative consciousness to create and maintain the notion of a concept of

self in time and space. Generation of memories are the way of sustaining

personness.

> and by the way .. after the body is dead, the thought-forms

> still exist .. but there is nothing you can do to change them ..

> you need a body to do that!

 

Do you know this from personal experience?

Everything active is thought forms - and after the distingration of

awareness of the physical body.....

 

"After the outer breath ceases, the neural winds dissolve into the wisdom

central channel and the consciousness arises distinctly as the unfabricating

clear light. This is when the Natural Liberation should be used, before the

winds reverse themselves and escape through the right and left channels, and

the visions of the betweens arises invitingly. After the outer breath has

ceased, the inner breath remains within the central channel just for the

time it takes to eat a meal".

 

Then follows the standard instruction for recognizing the clear light. Here

awareness is clear and contentless, infinite and stripped of all structures,

seeming free of all point of subjectivity or sense of objectivity. The

difficulty of recognition (both when alive, each moment, and during the

dying process) comes from feeling fear or faint at losing the sense of

holding on. That is why the instruction urges the deceased to identify with

infinite transparency, to recognize it as the essential selfless Self. As

the Tibetans say, "its a matter of getting used to."

 

So -if one doesn't recognize Self, or clear light one is again a

being-in-transit. And then more evolutionary hallucinations dawn -these

continue through the process long after the body is quite clinically dead.

(And will doubtless continue throughout my day) So - of course, always

thought forms -but theories about where things/phenomena are located don't

really have much practical relevance - mind can be trained to recognize the

Self in the totality of the universe, It's expression. The point is freedom

from suffering, realizing our full human potential - but would also make a

good term paper.

 

"The soul has now no further awareness of the body and will give herself no

foreign name, not man, not living being, nor anything at all," Plotinus

 

"After the body has been cast off to a distance like a corpse, the Sage

never more attaches himself to it." Sankara

 

"If one opens one's eyes and seeks the body, it is not to be found any more.

This is called; in the empty chamber it grows light. Inside and outside,

everything is equally light. That's a very favorable sign". The Secret of

the Golden Flower.

 

Yours betwixt and between,

 

Joyce

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/27/2001 1:19:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

berkowd writes:

 

<< Mind-body dualisms will

never produce nondual

realization.

 

Love,

Dan >>

you wanna bet?

[Guest guest]

At 12:47 AM 4/28/01 +1000, you wrote:

Aaaaahhhhh .. Joyce ...

but you forget several things ...

The material that does the thinking is composed of exactly the same

types of cells that make up the body .. and if we forget the body,

then

the brain dies.

In fact, there is no quicker way to block the mind than block the

anus.

The other thing I cannot see in your writing .. is the role of the

unconscious .. that part of the reactionary mind which leads

the cognisant mind by about half a second ..

Neither can I see anywhere any reference to the fact that in between

Eastern and Western .. the conscious is reversed .. ie in the East,

the

Unconscious is outside the body .. whilst in the West .. because of

denial, the Unconscious is located in the cells of the body.

Now .. over the last few days, this list has been witnessing a whole

lot of reactions from a number of people. Where do these

reactions

come from .. the unconscious "body mind" .. those memories

stored in the cells of the physical material that go to make up

the thinking organ called the brain ..

It is the continual recreation of these past memories that make up

thought.

Just as the Eye can see,

but cannot see itself ..

The Mind cannot change itself

so how do you think you can change your mind

Oh ..

and by the way .. after the body is dead, the thought-forms

still exist .. but there is nothing you can do to change them ..

you need a body to do that!

Christopher Wynter

Mind-body dualisms will

never produce nondual

realization.

Love,

Dan