I wonder

May 1, 2001

I have read this list for quite some time now ..

not always posting .. but reading ..

and I wonder ..

There are some very knowledgeable people

here .. with access to a great range of material

written by others .. most of whom are long dead.

and I wonder ..

Sometimes I read people post in their own words

in answer to a question or comment ..

without referring to these long dead tomes ..

and I wonder ..

how many people can put these words that they

quote in their own expression .. so that their

personal and life experience shows that they

have a practical embodiment of the words of

these long dead authors ..

and I wonder ..

as I read the quoted words of a Swami Gee Gee

who, during his life, never spoke English ..

whether the good and revered Swami ever spoke

the words attributed to him .. or whether what is

quoted is what somebody translated of what

someone else thought he said .. because, lets face

it, some of these authors died before English was

invented and spiritual language was defined by the

Church of Rome

and I wonder

what sort of preconceptions of the meanings of

words and language influenced the one who did

the translating ..

and I wonder

if the one who did the translating could live up to

what he was translating in his own life ..

and I wonder

if he could live up to what he was translating in his

own life, whether he lived the life of a recluse, or

of a renunciate .. or whether he lived as some of

us live .. in a house in society in the modern world

with all of the everyday energies of other sentient

and not so sentient beings milling around ..

and I wonder

what the experiences of the real life applications

of some of this knowledge is to the people who are

so ready to quote it ..

and I wonder

at what inner turmoil so many are using these words

to cover up ..

and I wonder

who is the authority in their life .. and do they really

have free will .. and the power of choice

and most of all, I wonder

if someone came to you with a real life gut wrenching

crisis, would you be able to hear what they are really

saying from underneath the sobs .. and respond with

compassion .. or would you react .. either from your

own unresolved issues .. or from what you have been

taught you should believe ..

cw

May 1, 2001

Hi CW,

> There are some very knowledgeable people

> here .. with access to a great range of material

> written by others .. most of whom are long dead.

To me, their teachings, written material, are living Presence and not at all

"dead". Study of ancient texts has always been a part of practice. I also

transcribe texts for teachers both living and no longer embodied yet still

completely "present.". Both reading and transcribing fills mind with great

thoughts, not the usual confused mind stream preoccupied with its little

worries and trivia. And one also finds clarification through these records

of the experience of living recorded by great beings, to say nothing of

feeling a small part of a great lineage flow of enlightened mind moving

through human history. Im not a translator, but no, I rarely live up to what

Im transcribing, but I try on occassion to inhabit. And am consoled.

Anyone can ask me anything about my "history" - but I dont often post about

personal history because I don't feel it is of any particular benefit to

anyone -unless it seems as if someone needs a little encouragement. But when

I post the words of masters, this doesn't mean anyone should assume there is

any realization here. Actually, I am a complete failure as a yogi

contemplative. We read what we read, listen to what we are taught, find

what rings true, as everyone has wisdom mind, the real guru, and then we

practice and see for ourselves. Words only reflect and bare witness to the

hope of ever present Spirit. One resonates and discerns through the concepts

and words.

>

> what sort of preconceptions of the meanings of

> words and language influenced the one who did

> the translating ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> if the one who did the translating could live up to

> what the experiences of the real life applications

> of some of this knowledge is to the people who are

> so ready to quote it ..

Kindness, patience, sympathetic joy, equanimity, fearlessness and wisdom -

and the capacity to live fully in the midst of suffering until the dawn of

the time of no more suffering.

>

> and I wonder

>

> at what inner turmoil so many are using these words

> to cover up ..

No inner turmoil is ever covered up by a practitioner - but do you really

want to hear about all the inner turmoil - its the same as yours, more or

less. The turmoil or suffering is a great inspiration and motivator.

Suffering is the common denominator for everyone on this list - but people

face this fully each in their own way and even manage a few laughs

-community is a great support.

>

> and I wonder

>

> who is the authority in their life .. and do they really

> have free will .. and the power of choice

Definately one chooses - there can be many reasons why people choose,

perhaps they just can't stand the pain any more and all you need to be

concerned with is who is the "authority" in your life. karma unfolds, one

has no choice here, but we have free will as to how to live out karma.

>

> and most of all, I wonder

>

> if someone came to you with a real life gut wrenching

> crisis, would you be able to hear what they are really

> saying from underneath the sobs .. and respond with

> compassion .. or would you react .. either from your

> own unresolved issues .. or from what you have been

> taught you should believe

When someone comes to me in tears, gut wrenching full blown crises or even a

small worry and moan, we have a cuddle, then a cup of tea and a chat. I

listen, eventually we laugh and have another cuddle maybe a mutual sigh. I

might even get out the Tarot cards which are a lovely distraction. I refrain

from offering advice.

Consider yourself cuddled....

Joyce

>

> cw

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

> back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

> the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

> Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

> Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

> of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

May 1, 2001

, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote:

>

> Hi CW,

>

> > There are some very knowledgeable people

> > here .. with access to a great range of material

> > written by others .. most of whom are long dead.

>

> To me, their teachings, written material, are living Presence and

not at all

> "dead". Study of ancient texts has always been a part of practice.

I also

> transcribe texts for teachers both living and no longer embodied yet

still

> completely "present.". Both reading and transcribing fills mind

with great

> thoughts, not the usual confused mind stream preoccupied with its

little

> worries and trivia. And one also finds clarification through these

records

> of the experience of living recorded by great beings, to say nothing

of

> feeling a small part of a great lineage flow of enlightened mind

moving

> through human history. Im not a translator, but no, I rarely live up

to what

> Im transcribing, but I try on occassion to inhabit. And am consoled.

>

> Anyone can ask me anything about my "history" - but I dont often

post about

> personal history because I don't feel it is of any particular

benefit to

> anyone -unless it seems as if someone needs a little encouragement.

But when

> I post the words of masters, this doesn't mean anyone should assume

there is

> any realization here. Actually, I am a complete failure as a yogi

> contemplative. We read what we read, listen to what we are taught,

find

> what rings true, as everyone has wisdom mind, the real guru, and

then we

> practice and see for ourselves. Words only reflect and bare witness

to the

> hope of ever present Spirit. One resonates and discerns through the

concepts

> and words.

> >

> > what sort of preconceptions of the meanings of

> > words and language influenced the one who did

> > the translating ..

> >

> > and I wonder

> >

> > if the one who did the translating could live up to

>

> > what the experiences of the real life applications

> > of some of this knowledge is to the people who are

> > so ready to quote it ..

>

> Kindness, patience, sympathetic joy, equanimity, fearlessness and

wisdom -

> and the capacity to live fully in the midst of suffering until the

dawn of

> the time of no more suffering.

> >

> > and I wonder

> >

> > at what inner turmoil so many are using these words

> > to cover up ..

>

> No inner turmoil is ever covered up by a practitioner - but do you

really

> want to hear about all the inner turmoil - its the same as yours,

more or

> less. The turmoil or suffering is a great inspiration and motivator.

> Suffering is the common denominator for everyone on this list - but

people

> face this fully each in their own way and even manage a few laughs

> -community is a great support.

> >

> > and I wonder

> >

> > who is the authority in their life .. and do they really

> > have free will .. and the power of choice

>

> Definately one chooses - there can be many reasons why people

choose,

> perhaps they just can't stand the pain any more and all you need to

be

> concerned with is who is the "authority" in your life. karma

unfolds, one

> has no choice here, but we have free will as to how to live out

karma.

> >

> > and most of all, I wonder

> >

> > if someone came to you with a real life gut wrenching

> > crisis, would you be able to hear what they are really

> > saying from underneath the sobs .. and respond with

> > compassion .. or would you react .. either from your

> > own unresolved issues .. or from what you have been

> > taught you should believe

>

> When someone comes to me in tears, gut wrenching full blown crises

or even a

> small worry and moan, we have a cuddle, then a cup of tea and a

chat. I

> listen, eventually we laugh and have another cuddle maybe a mutual

sigh. I

> might even get out the Tarot cards which are a lovely distraction. I

refrain

> from offering advice.

>

> Consider yourself cuddled....

>

> Joyce

> >

> > cw

> >

> > /join

> >

> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

sights,

> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in

and subside

> > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than

> > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

> > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present.

It is

> > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality

> > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge,

> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

> >

Namaste All,

It seems to me that both compassion and surrender are necessary for

viewing all as one....ONS Tony.

May 1, 2001

, Christopher Wynter <lifestreams@b...>

wrote:

> I have read this list for quite some time now ..

> not always posting .. but reading ..

>

> and I wonder ..

>

> There are some very knowledgeable people

> here .. with access to a great range of material

> written by others .. most of whom are long dead.

>

> and I wonder ..

>

> Sometimes I read people post in their own words

> in answer to a question or comment ..

> without referring to these long dead tomes ..

>

> and I wonder ..

>

> how many people can put these words that they

> quote in their own expression .. so that their

> personal and life experience shows that they

> have a practical embodiment of the words of

> these long dead authors ..

>

> and I wonder ..

>

> as I read the quoted words of a Swami Gee Gee

> who, during his life, never spoke English ..

> whether the good and revered Swami ever spoke

> the words attributed to him .. or whether what is

> quoted is what somebody translated of what

> someone else thought he said .. because, lets face

> it, some of these authors died before English was

> invented and spiritual language was defined by the

> Church of Rome

>

> and I wonder

>

> what sort of preconceptions of the meanings of

> words and language influenced the one who did

> the translating ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> if the one who did the translating could live up to

> what he was translating in his own life ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> if he could live up to what he was translating in his

> own life, whether he lived the life of a recluse, or

> of a renunciate .. or whether he lived as some of

> us live .. in a house in society in the modern world

> with all of the everyday energies of other sentient

> and not so sentient beings milling around ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> what the experiences of the real life applications

> of some of this knowledge is to the people who are

> so ready to quote it ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> at what inner turmoil so many are using these words

> to cover up ..

>

> and I wonder

>

> who is the authority in their life .. and do they really

> have free will .. and the power of choice

>

> and most of all, I wonder

>

> if someone came to you with a real life gut wrenching

> crisis, would you be able to hear what they are really

> saying from underneath the sobs .. and respond with

> compassion .. or would you react .. either from your

> own unresolved issues .. or from what you have been

> taught you should believe ..

>

> cw

Namaste,

It is easy to get entangled on one's own fishing line...ONS Tony

May 1, 2001

Dear cw,

You wonder some excellent questions indeed. I would like to submit one

possible way to look at quotes, a way in which none of the answers to

your good questions actually matter with regard to translation. Tho

your last question is of a different nature. Good quotes of good

sources, with or without commentary, might be compared to re-playing

music that others have found moved them in some profound way. ( Yes,

I am partial to musical metaphors.) Leaving you free to respond as

however you may to what "you hear", or with a commentary that directs

your attention to what was noticed/heard by the 'quoter', both are

simply offerings..like gifts.

Here is a favorite quote about the making of translations, for example.

When the violin repeats what the piano has just played, it cannot

make the same sounds and it can only approximate the same chords. It

can, however, make recognizably the same "music", the same air. But

it can do so only when it is as faithful to the self-logic of the

violin as it is to the self-logic of the piano.

Language too is an instrument, and each language has its own

logic. I believe that the process of rendering from language to

language is better conceived as a "transposition" than as a

"translation", for translation implies a series of word-for-word

equivalents that do not exist across language boundaries any more

than piano sounds exist in the violin.

~~John Ciardi

True as this seems to me of langage to language, it seems equally true

of "meanings" in the identically same language, but across the

boundaries of interpretation from individual to individual. What is

"heard" in what is said depends just as much upon the context of the

hearer as the speaker. The meaning is not "in the words" any more

than the music is in the notes. At best, the words may perhaps

function like a vehicle conveying some ineffable, wordless

transmission, the way a person may with presence. They "carry with

them" the essence of a message for those who have eyes to see and

ears to hear.

As for this last question of yours:

and most of all, I wonderif someone came to you with a real life gut

wrenchingcrisis, would you be able to hear what they are reallysaying

from underneath the sobs .. and respond withcompassion .. or would you

react .. either from yourown unresolved issues .. or from what you

have beentaught you should believe ..

This is obviously one each person can only answer for themselves. Good questions!!

One caveat I would offer is that compassion does not always appear

"looking all sweet and nice" - and as one might want or expect it

to. Rather it takes a myriad of forms, many of which may only be seen

later with a great deal of hindsight. Wanting "one's own compassion"

to be obviously seen, understood as such, or appreciated immediately

can just as easily prevent real help... that may be primarily about

one's own self-image. Or similarly, sometimes those who claim to know

what's what and to be doing whatever they are doing "for your own

good" may be just as misguided, no matter how well-intentioned. It's

very much a "buyer beware" situation, with regard to what you buy

into in the compassion market.

Simply asking questions, or offering them for reflection, as you have

done here, can be a real service. Thank you. Nothing quite so good as

a timely question.

With love,

Gloria

- Christopher Wynter

Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:47 AM

I wonder

I have read this list for quite some time now ..not always posting ..

but reading ..and I wonder ..There are some very knowledgeable

peoplehere .. with access to a great range of materialwritten by

others .. most of whom are long dead.and I wonder ..Sometimes I read

people post in their own wordsin answer to a question or comment

...without referring to these long dead tomes ..and I wonder ..how

many people can put these words that theyquote in their own

expression .. so that theirpersonal and life experience shows that

theyhave a practical embodiment of the words ofthese long dead

authors ..and I wonder ..

May 1, 2001

Great Post ...I have a hunch that Many who do not post, wonder the

same thing. Nice wonders indeed!

-------------------------

-

Christopher Wynter

Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:47 AM

I wonder

I have read this list for quite some time now ..not always posting ..

but reading ..and I wonder ..There are some very knowledgeable

peoplehere .. with access to a great range of materialwritten by

others .. most of whom are long dead.and I wonder ..Sometimes I read

people post in their own wordsin answer to a question or comment

...without referring to these long dead tomes ..and I wonder ..how

many people can put these words that theyquote in their own

expression .. so that theirpersonal and life experience shows that

theyhave a practical embodiment of the words ofthese long dead

authors ..and I wonder ..as I read the quoted words of a Swami Gee

Geewho, during his life, never spoke English ..whether the good and

revered Swami ever spokethe words attributed to him .. or whether

what isquoted is what somebody translated of whatsomeone else thought

he said .. because, lets faceit, some of these authors died before

English wasinvented and spiritual language was defined by theChurch

of Romeand I wonderwhat sort of preconceptions of the meanings

ofwords and language influenced the one who didthe translating ..and

I wonderif the one who did the translating could live up towhat he

was translating in his own life ..and I wonderif he could live up to

what he was translating in hisown life, whether he lived the life of

a recluse, orof a renunciate .. or whether he lived as some ofus live

... in a house in society in the modern worldwith all of the everyday

energies of other sentientand not so sentient beings milling around

...and I wonderwhat the experiences of the real life applicationsof

some of this knowledge is to the people who areso ready to quote it

...and I wonderat what inner turmoil so many are using these wordsto

cover up ..and I wonderwho is the authority in their life .. and do

they reallyhave free will .. and the power of choiceand most of all,

I wonderif someone came to you with a real life gut wrenchingcrisis,

would you be able to hear what they are reallysaying from underneath

the sobs .. and respond withcompassion .. or would you react ..

either from yourown unresolved issues .. or from what you have

beentaught you should believe

...cw/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

May 1, 2001

Now I'm wondering how many posts are actually posting....

-

wlapiers

Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:03 PM

Re: I wonder