Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 At 08:28 PM 4/30/01 +0000, you wrote: , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > Hi Tony! > > Now you're a history professor, too? > And I suppose you've studied the Hebrew > testament in its original language > to explain to us why and how Jacob's > name was changed to Israel? And why > Israel is the people of Jacob? > > And you're well acquainted with every > century of over 5,000 years of > documented history of that people? > > The word Israel has nothing to do with "seekers" by > the way... as Jacob saw YHVH directly > without any seeking ... > > Tony, you expound on speculative ideas > as if you have a definitive answer, > which I guess is a kind of quaint > personality trait of yours, no doubt > quite endearing to those who love you, > I mean, who are ignorantly attached to you ;-) > > Blessed be, > Dan > > >Namaste, > > > >Israelites came at about 3000 BC. from Egypt, the word means > >'seekers'. Jews came with the Spanish there is a difference. Jews > >really evolved around 400-500 BC and after the Babylonian captivity. > >They were essentially Canaanites. Although they have some descent from > >the original Israelites, they are not the Israelites. Mayan refugees > >settled as the Hopi in the 'four corners', area. So did some South > >Americans etc, not including those that were always there. > > > >The Mayans in public and more in secret have preserved the teachings, > >from Atlantis etc. As a student of vedanta and having spent spiritual > >time in India, I was not surprised to find the teachings and symbols > >the same, even down to a form of advaita vedanta mayan style. > > > >...ONS Tony Namaste, Admittedly my knowledge or whatever is not of the 'universities', but its references are equally valid. However I don't want to get into the Bible as a History Book thing. When it is mostly stories and some esotericism. I think you'll find there was no Hebrew scriptures prior to 500 BC. Even profs at the Universtiy in Tel Aviv say there is no record of David and Solomon existing as in the Bible. They were probably Egyptian figures, whom the stories are based on to give the returning refugees 'A History'. Again as you well know the Jews are a later formation. The Is Ra El ites are an older group, probably the followers of a monotheism in Egypt. Their descendants were probably followers of Ahkenaton, and it was they that were banished, much later than the original 'lost tribes'. No offence I'm quoting some Israelis sources here. Om Namah Sivaya.....Hi Tony - I suppose anyone seriously interested in the history of Mayans, Hopis, Hebrews, etc., can find innumerable resources available, and probably wouldn't accept at face value highly speculative statements made here according to unnamed special sources. Of course there were Hebrew scriptures prior to 500 B.C., and documentation of civilizations includes something called archeology, Tony. Simply because archeology is taught in universities doesn't make it invalid ;-) The way you slide from proclamations about Nirguna Brahman to speculative story-telling about ancient civilizations is quite fun. Maybe at some point you will speak from your direct experience, who knows? Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote> > > >Namaste, > > > >Admittedly my knowledge or whatever is not of the 'universities', but > >its references are equally valid. > > > >However I don't want to get into the Bible as a History Book thing. > >When it is mostly stories and some esotericism. I think you'll find > >there was no Hebrew scriptures prior to 500 BC. Even profs at the > >Universtiy in Tel Aviv say there is no record of David and Solomon > >existing as in the Bible. They were probably Egyptian figures, whom > >the stories are based on to give the returning refugees 'A History'. > > > >Again as you well know the Jews are a later formation. The Is Ra El > >ites are an older group, probably the followers of a monotheism in > >Egypt. Their descendants were probably followers of Ahkenaton, and it > >was they that were banished, much later than the original 'lost > >tribes'. No offence I'm quoting some Israelis sources here. > > > >Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony > > Hi Tony - > > I suppose anyone seriously interested > in the history of Mayans, Hopis, > Hebrews, etc., can find innumerable > resources available, and probably > wouldn't accept at face value > highly speculative statements made > here according to unnamed special sources. > > Of course there were Hebrew scriptures > prior to 500 B.C., and documentation > of civilizations includes something > called archeology, Tony. Simply > because archeology is taught in > universities doesn't make it invalid ;-) > > The way you slide from > proclamations about Nirguna > Brahman to speculative > story-telling about ancient > civilizations is quite fun. > > Maybe at some point you will speak > from your direct experience, > who knows? > > Peace, > Dan Namaste Dan, Rather a smart arse response, but anyway show mw a Hebrew scripture written before 500 BC! Some of my Mayan stuff comes from Mayans who don't talk to univerity people, for reasons obvious here. I wouldn't expose my sources on here anyway. The universities still think the pyramids were built 5000 yrs ago not earlier. I don't want to get into the religion of history and archeology with its unviversity dogmas. After all when Rama was here c 20,000 yrs ago, the universities reckon agriculture hadn't been invented hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha Anyway you quote stories to me. Chaim Romanescu of Tel Aviv University says there is no evidence that either David or Solomon or their kingdom existed. Even the 'temple at jerusalem was built at least 400 years before the supposed time of Solomon. Biblical descriptions of Solomons temple in the Bible actually describe the palace of Amenhotep III, at Thebes. As Freud suspected 'Moses', was probably the Pharoah Akhenaten, and his followers. They were later written in as Hebrews, when they weren't. So Dan there'w some university stuff for you......ONS Ton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 Namaste, Tony -- Rather a smart arse response, O.K. Sorry that it came across like that. I understand that you are looking into things, and don't disrespect that in the least. Let me do my best to respond as straightforwardly as possible: You discussed opening to/as Nirguna Brahman. Now you veer off into abstract intellectualization about things that people told you about their intellectualization. How can this lead to anything but further experience-distant conceptualization? You expressed concern about talk that led to "distraction". How do you reconcile that concern with speculative conceptualizing about past civilizations like Atlantis? but anyway show mw a Hebrew scripture written before 500 BC! Check out B'reysheet, mistranslated as "Genesis". No one is sure when that was written, some trace it back thousands of years, also true of some of the prayers in the prayer book -- and regardless of that, as I said, archeology traces the civilization back thousands of years, contrary to what you said. And additionally, you made statements about when the Hebrew civilization really blossomed and how it developed that seem to be your personal beliefs and perspective treated as established fact, simply disregarding academia or sources that say otherwise. But Tony, it's not something I want to debate further -- it's simply not what brings me to this list. You previously alluded to Ramana Maharshi as someone who, for you, was looked to as a guideline for posting here. When did Ramana get into debates about when scriptures from other cultures were written, when other cultures really blossomed and developed, what the story is with Atlantis? How, in your mind, do such debates further the inquiry "Who am I?" that Ramana suggested as the way to resolve all human questions and dilemmas? Some of my Mayan stuff comes from Mayans who don't talk to univerity people, for reasons obvious here. I wouldn't expose my sources on here anyway. The universities still think the pyramids were built 5000 yrs ago not earlier. I don't want to get into the religion of history and archeology with its unviversity dogmas. After all when Rama was here c 20,000 yrs ago, the universities reckon agriculture hadn't been invented hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha Anyway you quote stories to me. Chaim Romanescu of Tel Aviv University says there is no evidence that either David or Solomon or their kingdom existed. Even the 'temple at jerusalem was built at least 400 years before the supposed time of Solomon. Biblical descriptions of Solomons temple in the Bible actually describe the palace of Amenhotep III, at Thebes. As Freud suspected 'Moses', was probably the Pharoah Akhenaten, and his followers. They were later written in as Hebrews, when they weren't. So Dan there'w some university stuff for you......ONS Ton O.K., Tony. Thanks for sharing your information. I appreciate the interest you've taken to gather this information. I guess where I'm coming from is here: previously you seemed involved in inquiry into the nature of who you are, and, as I perceive it, you moved far afield. Although, if this is where you're moved to go, I accept it. I acknowledge that my perception of this is based solely on my interpretation of the words I read here, and that interpretation may not fit for you. If what I say is off-base for you, please disregard. While I don't buy some of what you're saying as historical information, I accept that if it's true for you, and important to you, so it is. To me, it's not an important point or worth further energy to debate. The inquiry "Who am I?" also known as "What is the nature of reality?" seems to the point, at least as understood here. Perhaps even this discussion out in left field furthers that inquiry, since all phenomena ultimately further the inquiry ;-) Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > Namaste, Tony -- > > >Rather a smart arse response, > > O.K. Sorry that it came across like that. > I understand that you are looking into > things, and don't disrespect that in the least. > Let me do my best to respond as > straightforwardly as possible: > > You discussed opening to/as Nirguna Brahman. > Now you veer off into abstract intellectualization > about things that people told you about their > intellectualization. How can this lead to anything > but further experience-distant conceptualization? > > You expressed concern about talk that led > to "distraction". How do you reconcile that > concern with speculative conceptualizing > about past civilizations like Atlantis? > > >but anyway show mw a Hebrew scripture > >written before 500 BC! > > Check out B'reysheet, mistranslated as "Genesis". > No one is sure when that was written, some trace > it back thousands of years, also true > of some of the prayers in the prayer book -- > and regardless of that, > as I said, archeology traces the civilization back > thousands of years, contrary to what you said. > > And additionally, you made statements about > when the Hebrew civilization > really blossomed and how it developed that > seem to be your personal beliefs and perspective > treated as established fact, simply disregarding > academia or sources that say otherwise. > But Tony, it's not something I want to debate > further -- it's simply not what brings me to this list. > > You previously alluded to Ramana Maharshi as someone > who, for you, was looked to as a guideline for > posting here. When did Ramana get into debates > about when scriptures from other cultures were written, > when other cultures really blossomed and developed, > what the story is with Atlantis? > How, in your mind, do such debates further the inquiry > "Who am I?" that Ramana suggested as the way to resolve > all human questions and dilemmas? Namaste Dan, Genesis isn't a Hebrew Scripure, it is as old as the world. Much was incorporated into the Bible that was in other scriptures. During the Babylonian exile. For example gen 6: where it is talking about humans mixing with animal humans etc. Sure I came here to discuss vedanta but I got diverted talking to a lady about 1st Nations and other stuff. A diversion but we live in a diversion. As I said in an earlier post one must know when one is talking relatively and when one is talking absolutely. I'll say it again Is Ra El ites were not Hebrews, the name was adopted by the Hebrews thousands of years later. Jews again were another branch of people, mixed Hebrews and Canaanites. Also if this list just discusses 'Who am I', it just turns into a merry go round of intellectualisng to see who can write the most non dual language and verse. Obviously non of us are realised. ONS Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 > "Who am I?" that Ramana suggested as the way to resolve > all human questions and dilemmas? WHO AM I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 At 12:55 AM 5/2/01 +0000, you wrote: , Daniel Berkow <berkowd@u...> wrote: > Namaste, Tony -- > > >Rather a smart arse response, > > O.K. Sorry that it came across like that. > I understand that you are looking into > things, and don't disrespect that in the least. > Let me do my best to respond as > straightforwardly as possible: > > You discussed opening to/as Nirguna Brahman. > Now you veer off into abstract intellectualization > about things that people told you about their > intellectualization. How can this lead to anything > but further experience-distant conceptualization? > > You expressed concern about talk that led > to "distraction". How do you reconcile that > concern with speculative conceptualizing > about past civilizations like Atlantis? > > >but anyway show mw a Hebrew scripture > >written before 500 BC! > > Check out B'reysheet, mistranslated as "Genesis". > No one is sure when that was written, some trace > it back thousands of years, also true > of some of the prayers in the prayer book -- > and regardless of that, > as I said, archeology traces the civilization back > thousands of years, contrary to what you said. > > And additionally, you made statements about > when the Hebrew civilization > really blossomed and how it developed that > seem to be your personal beliefs and perspective > treated as established fact, simply disregarding > academia or sources that say otherwise. > But Tony, it's not something I want to debate > further -- it's simply not what brings me to this list. > > You previously alluded to Ramana Maharshi as someone > who, for you, was looked to as a guideline for > posting here. When did Ramana get into debates > about when scriptures from other cultures were written, > when other cultures really blossomed and developed, > what the story is with Atlantis? > How, in your mind, do such debates further the inquiry > "Who am I?" that Ramana suggested as the way to resolve > all human questions and dilemmas? Namaste Dan, Genesis isn't a Hebrew Scripure, it is as old as the world. Much was incorporated into the Bible that was in other scriptures. During the Babylonian exile. For example gen 6: where it is talking about humans mixing with animal humans etc. Sure I came here to discuss vedanta but I got diverted talking to a lady about 1st Nations and other stuff. A diversion but we live in a diversion. As I said in an earlier post one must know when one is talking relatively and when one is talking absolutely. I'll say it again Is Ra El ites were not Hebrews, the name was adopted by the Hebrews thousands of years later. Jews again were another branch of people, mixed Hebrews and Canaanites. Also if this list just discusses 'Who am I', it just turns into a merry go round of intellectualisng to see who can write the most non dual language and verse. Obviously non of us are realised. ONS Dear Tony - As I see, it, the Realized One is Reality. That One's realization is how we appear. It's not someone's property, so no concern here about who is or isn't realized. Belief that realization belongs to someone who "has" it or "gets" it seems to me to lead to continuing seeking to try to be that person or be like that person, or continued self-denigration as one who is "unrealized". Realization is not to be had by a someone. There isn't some place apart for a someone to exist to have it or not have it. The futility of viewing reality as something to be had or got in the future, leads one always back to "now", always to "what is" ... Your rationale for why your intellectualizing is worthwhile diversion and others' isn't worthwhile isn't clear to me -- Your previous statements about valuing Ramana's perspective and your current assertion that asking "Who am I?" just turns into a merry-go-round of intellectualization isn't clear either. Why not ask in a way that isn't intellectualizing and post the results of that inquiry to assist others? You asked for a Hebrew scripture older than 500 B.C. -- Now, you agree with me -- but say it isn't Hebrew. Well, at least we now agree on something ;-) Frankly, the revelation encoded in B'reysheet is timeless and transcultural. It doesn't seem here to make much difference whether one believes it should be attributed as Hebrew or not. What makes a difference is living the revelation, being open to "what it is" ... I note that you re-affirmed your belief concerning Is ra el ites. Certainly, there are many diverse opinions about ancient civilizations, some based on in-depth research and others not. And, I suppose, such opinions express a kind of experience-distant intellectual intrigue involved in hypothesizing about what is long past. I'm content to leave the issue there ;-) Namaste, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Dan I only do speak from my own experience. I am not versed well enough to intellectualise like many on here. I do my best and most of what I say I have checked out....Unless it is an unavoidable quote. As I am a mystic, my references of course wouldn't be regarded as valid. Om Namah Sivaya....Tony. Dear Tony -- Referencing your experience and who you are -- is certainly good enough here ... Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Namaste Dan et al, Dan wrote:>I note that you re-affirmed your belief concerning Is ra el ites. Certainly, there are many diverse opinions about ancient civilizations, some based on in-depth research and others not. And, I suppose, such opinions express a kind of experience-distant intellectual intrigue involved in hypothesizing about what is long past. I'm content to leave the issue there ;-)< Could you repeat that in English! I am taking a punt here that the original word was Isai(Isis)-Ra-El. Isis being the female and Ra the male and both together are El or 'The One', which is cognitive with Allah of the same meaning. Ra was the Sungod, of course......Om Namah Sivaya....Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 At 07:51 PM 5/2/01 +0000, you wrote: Namaste Dan et al, Dan wrote:>I note that you re-affirmed your belief concerning Is ra el ites. Certainly, there are many diverse opinions about ancient civilizations, some based on in-depth research and others not. And, I suppose, such opinions express a kind of experience-distant intellectual intrigue involved in hypothesizing about what is long past. I'm content to leave the issue there ;-)< Could you repeat that in English! I am taking a punt here that the original word was Isai(Isis)-Ra-El. Isis being the female and Ra the male and both together are El or 'The One', which is cognitive with Allah of the same meaning. Ra was the Sungod, of course......Om Namah Sivaya....Hi Tony -- As far as I can tell, I wrote that in English. Maybe another way to say it is that taking symbolic ideas as a means to debate historical truth places the concepts outside of me, and far away from experience. Saying how you resonate with the symbols, or how they affect you, makes it more experience-near, more relevant in terms of "here-and-now". I like the way your imagination works. Uniting moon and sun, female and male, as one is an intriguing way to resonate with the name Israel. Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas, "make the male as the female and the inside as the outside" ... The Biblical story about Jacob being named Israel refers to seeing YHVH face to face. The symbolic implication is that he embraced human evolution in its entirety and became one, not only with his people as they are, but with their potential for full awareness. Again, symbolically, he was "imprinted" with the Qabala, the revelation, which was described as a mark on his thigh given by an angel. Jacob becoming Israel symbolizes transformation that appears through an individual and foreshadows transformation of all humanity. All of this is symbol and metaphor. As for how I resonate with the symbols -- as living inspiration to open as Energy that infuses symbols but is beyond symbols (where male and female are not-two, where positive and negative meet) ... Your use of symbol and metaphor (Isis Ra El) is thus enjoyable for me to read as well. Shalom, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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