Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Hi Dharma, Thanks for the files, I will read. > >>So - it seemed to me that the obviousness of body, and the direct contact to >>suffering through body > > I don't quite follow this... detachment from the body and a practice of > suffering through the body? I can only say that I see no value in > suffering per se. I mean, why sit in an uncomfortable posture or in too > cold a place? Some might think there's something to be learned that way... > and that it should be learned. But I just want to teach meditation, and > I think it's easier without fighting pain, cold, etc. Just wrap the body > up warm and put it to sleep. Well, I was posting from a Buddhist practice perspective. So the terms of reference are from "suffering" - one experiences this, or sees others in suffering and then decides to see if there is something to life other than this, an intial motivation. We are already "asleep". In these terms, noticing suffering and deciding not to try to escape it anymore is seen as valuable. So - no matter what "comfortable" position you find for yourself...sooner or later it will become very uncomfortable and you will need to move and try to find yet another comfortable position, or warmer, or cooler. So - of course, you don't fight pain, which is what all the trying to be comfortable is about - you welcome what ever discomfort (or comfort and pleasure) seems to be arising and sit with it and have a look see. The fact that one wants to put the body "to sleep" indicates that one has been mindful of its suffering/stress. One Buddhist teacher has her students simply sit in a chair without moving, but then when the desire to move becomes impossible to resist, note the reason for the movement, note the intention to move -it is not possible to do anything at all, even lift ones arm, without their first being intention. But, there is no one there, no one doing the moving but it is easy to identify with the idea that there is someone in discomfort and who wants to remove the discomfort -and this is pretty much the heart, the intention, of investigation a la Buddhism. De-attachment is non-identifcation and freedom. Pain may occur, pleasure may occur, but to no one. Yet, the suffering or pain, comes and goes, one sees into it -awareness actually arises as "pain". Sometimes, its peircing and shrill, some times dull and aching, sometimes very boring, all coming and going. Pain is very natural for us, suffering is not. Pain is only stress when it is "mine." And ditto for pleasure. So - investigation is merely directly seeing into what is, and for most of us, as you have noted, this is suffering/stress/tension in body. Body/mind are one. Avoidance of what is, is aversion or hate, greed is the desire for something more pleasant and it all comes down to continual desire or craving. Very stressful. Its quite natural to hate pain. And quite natural to crave any other state. This pain is impermanent, thoughts arise and disappear, sensations pleasant arise and disappear -one isnt cultivating pain (or any aversion to it) - just awareness of whatever is occurring. Anything occurring in the body is so vividly apparent that when you know it, you begin to sense the knowing faculty and then this becomes an object of contemplation as one senses the knowing faculty arising at the same time as movement. And this knowing faculty is vividly present when anything is intensely felt in body/ mind. So - one investigates Dharma, the investigative qualities of mind which examines and explores, just how the elements of mind and body work. Vajrayana is exploring the ways consciousness works. When one investigates with mind, but not with words and concepts, getting a feel of consciousness happening together with the object -this begins to bring freedom from identification with the observor. And then insight comes from the realization that observation is going on without an observor, witnessing without a witness. Dis-identification of the "I" and its habitual selfing occurs. As one identifies with deity and its qualities (projections) one gains insight even here into suffering, impermance and no-self. Deities arise as the expression of awareness, like any vision or thought or sensation and are empty of any permanent substance. Sitting, walking, standing and lying down are what we do all the time - and so one looks into this - why is one constantly on the move? usually to find relief/distraction from suffering. Yes, many Buddhist practices - but all directly work with what is present. Vajrayana also works skillfully with suffering -with this suffering "I" - deity practice helps one see how we actually create this habitual self and is a lovely form of conscious dreaming.. but the final place is complete Awakeness - and one plows on through the layers of suffering (greed, hatred and delusion arising from mistaken identification) rather like peeling an onion. There isn't much conceptuality needed as one is simply working with the moment as it arises.... As explained in the Bhagavad Gita - act without attachment to the fruit of the action. So, in the same way, our mind can be free of attachment to distinctions and preferences. They are all the dream of "I". There are said to be 84,000 forms of Buddhist practice - one for anyone who wants to try. Absolutely everyone of them is an expression of "sati" or mindfulness. I love Vajrayana because the Lamas are particularily kind and charming. But, I had the feeling that I was going to them with an aching tooth and they were training me to be a dentist. > My impression is that there is more than one form of Buddhist practice. > After the words of Gautama himself, I am more drawn to the teachings and > practices of Tibetan vajrayana. "Reflective" is mental. When this is occurring one notes its arising, duration and dissolving. One notes where this comes from and returns to. Along with imagining, conceptualizing, intending, remembering and so on - but one eventually drops the labels and settles into the Ground where all the seeds spring from.. resting mind in its ultimate nature. Most important is complete relaxation which gradually comes about as mind stops its chattering habit. It eventually goes altogther. One doesn't have to suppress mental activity. If one tries to its a bit like pushing a balloon under water, it just pops up again. Takes a lot of energy to suppress anything. And how can you swim in the pond after you have jumped in, if you are asleep? If the "body" is asleep" so is mind, they are not two. And if you define the pond for others, how they should swim in it in their own way as they are at the time? what are they doing with the pain they may be feeling? How do they express this to you? If there is any expectations program, structure or agenda people quickly adapt to what is expected, producing somethings and repressing others. Then you get the "good" students mimicing what pleases and the "bad" students acting out. But, encourging deep relaxation is great. The best program I know is to sit with a group of people and be invited to tell everyone what Im experiencing right now and then listen to what anyone else is coming up with and then explore freely -rarely happens, alas. Again, I know Im getting boring -in Buddhist terms, suffering is caused by mis-identification of any one doing anything, any self, or falseness owning whatever is arising in any moment either in body or mind as "mine.". The aim of practice is to look and see for oneself. So -I guess any practice is assessed by what it's aim is, or probable outcome and its intention. I'm interested in most practices -I see in my latest book on Sufi "Living Presence" that the author says... "The inner world includes thoughts, emotions, and subtler psychic impressions. With presence we can overcome our unconscious identification with these processes and know ourselves as we are. Just as we can consciously release physical tensions through our awareness of the body and its postures, we can release emotional tensions by recognizing them. Bringing our attention fully and willingly to emotional contractions and blockages has a transformative power." In my experience, these words are true. So - we attend to these processes - Im going to stick my neck out and suggest that you are already very mindful of the tensions of body/mind and we are just having a difference of opinion about approach. Im submitting that the training of attention has to begin with what is most obvious. Full catastrophe living as someone said. Anyway, its been fun. Love Joyce > > > To me this seems like an awful lot of reflective meditation. I would > rather get my students past the mental/intellectual immediately and on into > the real fun. I don't do much talking, I just lead them to the pond and we > all jump in. ) > > In writing about teaching, I forgot to mention that one kind of thing a > meditation teacher does usually escapes the notice of the students... that > is to join the group energetically into a functioning unit, to provide > extra energy to get the new people going, and to monitor everyone. I aim > in the first class to get everyone into the level above the intellectual, > even if just briefly. When I taught a one-hour workshop at a pagan/Wiccan > gathering, one woman came up to me afterward so happy she was crying. She > said it was the first time in her life she had ever been _without_ that > constant chatter of the mind. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Hi Joyce, When I was young, I thought I would be a philosopher and theologian, but now I have little interest in or time for them. I am just a technician... I teach method. >snip< >Vajrayana is exploring the ways consciousness works. When one investigates >with mind, but not with words and concepts, getting a feel of consciousness >happening together with the object -this begins to bring freedom from >identification with the observor. And then insight comes from the >realization that observation is going on without an observor, witnessing >without a witness. Dis-identification of the "I" and its habitual selfing >occurs. As one identifies with deity and its qualities (projections) one >gains insight even here into suffering, impermance and no-self. Deities >arise as the expression of awareness, like any vision or thought or >sensation and are empty of any permanent substance. I'm going to pamper my arm with the carpal tunnel problem, even though I'm foregoing an opportunity to observe more pain and suffering , by sharing from some of my favorite writers: First, from Sarah Harding's "Introduction" to Jamgon Kongtrul's_Creation and Completion_ > > CREATlON STAGE > >Visualization practice works with our relationship to the phenomenal world >of appearance and seeks to undermine its solidity and shift it into an >alternate, awakened perspective. The word often used for this process is >jong wa (sbyong ba), which has a wide range of meanings, including to >purify, purge, train, exercise, study, accustom, and cultivate. In this >translation, "purify" is used in the sense of a thorough work over and >radical shift. Four aspects of "purification" are mentioned as a framework >for understanding. The basis or ground of purification is buddha nature. >That which needs purifying or removing are the conceptual and emotional >obscurations to this nature, which are merely incidental and not intrinsic >to it. That which does the purifying is deity practice. The fruition of >purification is full recognition of the ground. >snip< >Deity >practice takes place within the framework of a ritual, liturgical text >called a "means of accomplishment" (sgrub thabs, Skt. sadhana). There is a >great variety in the sequence of practices within these texts, depending on >which level of tantra and which tradition they belong to. Different >snip< >Finally there may be the full-blown >visualization of the entire mandala palace and surrounding environment, >including many other deities as retinue in the mandala. This mandala >corresponds to our complex life with all of its relationships to beings and >to the environment surrounding our notion of ourself in concentric circles >of importance all around. We have already created this mandala, but without >awareness. Recreating the process in visualization, we see how we did it in >the first place, and how, as the natural process of the creative energy of >mind, it is essentially pure already. > >Three Aspects of Creation Stage >Traditionally there are three aspects, or techniques, to develop in >visualization practice: clarity, recollecting purity, and pride. Clarity of >form (rnam pa gsal ba) is the art of visualizing with steady, vivid >precision. The deity is held in the mind clearly, yet is always empty of >solid reality, like a vivid rainbow. This is not only a focus for achieving >one-pointed attention (tshe gcig) and stillness (szhi gnas, Skt. shamatha), >but also provides instant feed back on the state of one's mind. It is >snip< > Kongtrul's discussion of creation stage practice ends with a >description of the signs of accomplishment, such as the deity arising >effortlessly at all times and even being visible to others. But even if >these experiences don't happen and the visualization remains obscured, that >obscuration itself is not different from the true spacious nature of mind >itself. It always comes back to that. So the real accomplishment of >creation stage is the natural state of completion stage. > COMPLETION STAGE > >The true nature of mind and all phenomena is "beyond intellect and >inexpressible. There is no intentional effort that causes its realization >except that, as the text says, "the power of devotion causes it to arise >from within." This makes it difficult to write about, but a few points need >to be mentioned. > The creation stage undermines attachment to the solid, impure >phenomenal world, but can still leave us with the traces of attachment to >this new manifestation that we have created or perceived. So in the >completion stage the whole new wonderful world dissolves back into basic >ground, from which it never really departed. In the context of relationship >with life cycles mentioned above, this stage corresponds to death. >Recognizing that the visualization was created in the first place by mind, >empty and radiant, and dissolves back into it, purifies or prepares us for >the process of actual death, when this realization can result in full >awakening. > Within the context of meditation, there is no longer a visualized form >to work with, but there is still mind. So the discussion of completion >stage begins with a description of the mental process itself, so that the >practitioner can be aware of exactly what is happening. The tradition of >examining and analyzing the mental process has been a mainstay of Buddhist >practice since its inception. It is sometimes referred to as Buddhist >psychology. >snip< > The one single tool that is stressed >continuously to get through all manner of mental events, obstacles, >distractions and even positive meditative experiences is called >mindfulness, the ability to focus and know what is happening. >snip< > One last clarification about the term itself: completion stage >actually has two applications, and this could cause some confusion. In the >context of this present teaching, it is the second of the two stages of >deity practice, and usually corresponds to the actual dissolution of the >visualization, where mind rests without contrivance in its own nature. >Since this is ideally the ultimate realization, the term may take on a very >expansive meaning. > The other use of the term is in describing a different series of >meditation practices more commonly known as yogas (rnal 'byor), which >involve working with the channels, chakras, seminal drops, and vital winds >in the psycho-physical body. This includes such well-known practices as >Mystic Heat (tum mo), Ejection of Consciousness ('pho ba), and Dream Yoga >(rmi Iam), as well as techniques practiced with a partner to develop and >deploy the sexual energy (phyag rgya). These are all called completion >stage practices. >snip< > According to the teachings of Vajrayana, there is an intimate >relationship between the mind and the movement of vital energy or "wind" in >the body. It is said that the mind rides the wind, or that mind and wind >are inseparable. This can be noticed when calm abiding is stabilized. When >the ultimate realization of true nature takes place, what happens on the >psycho-physical level is that the wind enters the central channel (dbu ma, >Skt. avadhuti), the main artery of movement of energy in the body. On the >other hand, a practitioner may choose to work at it from the other side. >That is, to cultivate these energies purposefully and cause the wind to >enter the central channel through various physical techniques, >spontaneously bringing about realization. > The first approach is termed the Path of Liberation ('grol lam) and >the second the Path of Method (thabs Iam). The first is the direct approach >of recognizing mind nature, already described in the previous discussion of >completion stage. Although it may seem more direct and, to some people, >more attractive, it is evasive and difficult. It is one of the skillful >methods of tantra to work first with the physical energies of the body, for >there the mind will follow. The well-known yogi Milarepa was an example of >a practitioner of this path. But generally one practices both, often in >conjunction, and since the goal is the same they are mutually supportive. >This is the relationship, therefore, between the two uses of the term, and >one need only be informed of which method, form or formless, is under >discussion. ----------------------------- And second, from _Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism_ by Lama Anagarika Govinda > The abstractness of philosophical concepts and conclusions requires to be >constantly corrected by direct experience, by the practice of meditation >and the contingencies of daily life. The anthropomorphic element in the >Vajrayana is therefore not born from a lack of intellectual understanding >(as in the case of primitive man), but, on the contrary, from the >conscious desire to penetrate from a merely intellectual and theoretical >attitude to the direct awareness of reality. This cannot be achieved >through building up convictions, ideaIs, and aims based on reasoning, but >only through conscious penetration of those layers of our mind which >cannot be reached or influenced by logical arguments and discursive >thought. > Such penetration and transformation is only possible through the >compelling power of inner vision, whose primordial images or 'archetypes' >are the formative principles of our mind. Like seeds they sink into the >fertile soil of our subconsciousness in order to germinate, to grow and to >unfold their potentialities. > One may object, that such visions are purely subjective and >therefore nothing ultimate. However, words and ideas are nothing ultimate >either; and the danger of getting attached to them is all the greater, as >words have a limiting, narrowing tendency, while experiences and symbols >of true visions are something that is alive, that is growing and ripening >within us. They point and grow beyond themselves. They are too immaterial, >too 'transparent', too elusive, to become solid or 'thingish', and to >arouse attachment. They can neither be 'grasped' nor defined, nor >circumscribed exactly. They have the tendency to grow from the formed to >the formless - while that which is merely thought-out has the opposite >tendency, namely, to harden into lifeless concepts and dogmas. > The subjectivity of inner vision does not diminish its reality-value. >Such visions are not hallucinations, because their reality is that of the >human psyche. They are symbols, in which the highest knowledge and the >noblest endeavour of the human mind are embodied. Their visualization is >the creative process of spiritual projection, through which inner >experience is translated into visible form, comparable to the creative act >of an artist, whose subjective idea, emotion, or vision, is transformed >into an objective work of art, which now takes on a reality of its own, >independent of its creator. > But just as an artist must gain perfect control over his means of >expression and makes use of a variety of technical aids in order to >achieve the most perfect expression of his idea, in the same way the >spiritually creative man must be able to master the functions of his mind >and use certain technical aids in order to embue his vision with the power >and value of reality. >snip> >This is not a matter of emotional ecstasy or unrestrained imagination, but >a consciously directed creative process of realization, in which nothing >is left to chance and in which there is no place for vague emotions and >confused thinking. >snip< > The dynamic forces of the universe, however, are not different from >those of the human soul, and to recognize and transform those forces in >one's own mind - not only for one's own good, but for that of all iiving >beings - is the aim of the Buddhist Tantras. > The Buddhist does not believe in an independent or separately >existing external world, into whose dynamic forces he could insert >himself. The external world and his inner world are for him only the two >sides of the same fabric, in which the threads of all forces and of all >events, of all forms of consciousness and of their objects, are woven into >an inseparable net of endless, mutually conditioned relations. > The word _'tantra'_ is related to the concept of weaving and its >derivatives (thread, web, fabric, etc.), hinting at the interwovenness of >things and actions, the interdependence of all that exists, the continuity >in the interaction of cause and effect, as well as in spiritual and >traditional development, which like a thread weaves its way through the >fabric of history and of individual lives. The scriptures which in >Buddhism go under the name of _Tantra_ (Tib.: _rgyud_) are invariably of a >mystic nature, i.e., trying to establish the inner relationship of things: >the parallelism of microcosm and macrocosm, mind and universe, ritual and >reality, the world of matter and the world of the spirit. > This is the essence of Tantrism, as it developed with logical >necessity from the teachings and the religious practice of _Vijnanavadins_ >and _Yogacarins_ (the former name emphasizes more the theoretical or >philosophical, the latter more the practical aspect of the same School of >Mahayana-Buddhism). Like a gigantic wave the Tantric conception of the >world swept over the whole of India, penetrating and modifying Buddhism >and Hinduism alike and obliterating many of their differences. -------------------------- And third, the words of Jamgon Kongtrul himself in his _Creation and Completion_ >The essential point of all the modes of Dharma taught by the > Buddha >can be epitomized as a method to subdue one's mind. >The entryway into the initial mind practice >is surely renunciation, without which there is no way. >If authentic renunciation arises, compulsive activities will be few; >if activities are few, the significance of non-action will be near. >When non-action is realized, it is the true nature.84 >There is no other buddha outside of that. > >There are many categories of view, meditation, and action, >but when applied to one's own mind, >the view is absolute conviction in the true nature; >meditation is assimilating that meaning in one's being; >and action is recognizing anything that happens as that view > and meditation. >It follows that the fruition will be the actualization of things as > they are. > >The root of delusion is one's own mind grasping >external appearances as being truly existent. >Whatever creation or completion stage meditations are > employed, >all are intended as methods to reverse this attachment to the > reality of deluded appearance. >If stubborn habits of attachment and aversion are not reversed, >then meditation is as meaningless as a gopher hibernating in a > hole. >.... >All phenomena are subsumed under the two truths: >the relative truth is true with respect to delusion, >and the absolute truth is true with respect to true nature. >The definition of "truth" is that it is without deception. >If you know that the two truths are inseparable, like the moon > in water, >then the extinction of deluded appearance is close at hand. >.... >It is said that if you understand mind, knowing this one thing > illuminates everything, >but if you don't understand mind, knowing everything > obscures the one thing. >The great master Noble Nagarjuna said it this way: >"Where there is appropriate understanding of emptiness, all > things are appropriate, >and if there is no appropriate understanding of emptiness, > nothing is." >.... >In short, the essential meaning is this: understand the essential > points of meditation; >do not fall under the power of mediocrity in external manners; >and inwardly, exert effort tempered just right. >These shouid be understood as the signs of obtaining stability. >Non-meditation is the exhaustion of effort. >Although there is nothing to meditate on, there is something > to get used to.153 >.... >Since mindful awareness in essence has no true existence, >there is nothing to attend to, but there is something to establish. >Since it is awareness-emptiness, it is somewhat difficult to > establish, >but once you are used to it, it will be like meeting an old > acquaintance. >Whatever appearances, sounds, or thoughts occur, >there is not one iota that is not an aspect of awareness itself. > >The esoteric instructions of exceptional Atiyoga154 speak of >the distinction between mind and intrinsic awareness. >Mindfulness cannot grasp the nature of clear light - >this abstruse aspect, with movement and memory, that is difficult > to cut through, is mind. >With no object of cognizance, the nature of clear light is seen - >this radiant aspect abides like a candle. >.... >Uncontrived reality does not need to be sustained continuously: >one incident recalled is sufficient, >as was taught by the previous Kagyu156 masters. >By meditating on the essence, the karmic obscurations of many > eons >are purified, and furthermore, the vital wind enters the central > channel157 automatically. >There are other benefits too great to speak of. >If you know your own nature, it is the knowledge of the one > thing that liberates all. >.... >In sustaining non-focusing, the mixing of basic space and > intrinsic awareness >is enhanced by mixing the source, mind, with the center of > space >or the depths of the ocean to illuminate mindfulness. >At that time awareness-emptiness without center or circumference > arises. > >Three things are said to pose the danger of misunderstanding: >emptiness, calm abiding, and neutrality. > >Emptiness means freedom from the extremes of existence and > non-existence, >birth and cessation, eternalism and nihilism. >It is called an experience in awareness, unimaginable, > inconceivable, and ineffable. > >Calm abiding is thoroughly pacifying the churning of thoughts >and resting the mind evenly, without center or circumference, >abiding like the ocean without waves. > >Neutrality is when the power of mindful awareness weakens, >and you pursue the subtle mental movements. >When mindful awareness arrives, it is more like hindsight. >It is like water flowing through grass: >you see it only when it comes out the other side. > >During meditation, if a state of neutrality occurs, >single it out, that is, tighten up the mindful awareness. >.... >In the completely perfect sense, there is no meditation and > nothing to meditate on. >When mindfulness alone is enough, it is the peak of practice. >In the ultimate sense, even mindfulness itself does not exist. >When the basis of mindfulness is absolved in basic space we > speak of wisdom. >As when fuel is used up the fire is also extinguished, >when delusion is used up the remedy itself is eliminated. >This is the sphere of activity of all noble ones. > >It is not meditation, nor is it non-meditation. >Not being meditation, there is nothing at all to focus on, >and not being non-meditation, there can be no distraction. >Simply place the mind on the bare apprehension of the nature > of reality. >This is not a thought-object of the rational mind >because the absolute is beyond intellect and without reference > point. >If the intimate connection between thought and object is not > severed, >although you call it "uncontrived," it cannot reverse delusion. >Severing the inner perceiver and the external object >may be called self-arising self-liberating, but it is still duality. >When there is no antidote it is self-arising self-liberating. > >One's very own mind is the child appearing to the mother. >Like bubbles rising out of water, appearances arise out of > attachment >and yet if you know that it is the play of nonduality, >then this is what is meant by appearance and mind being the > meeting of mother and child. >You won't find cyclic existence and transcendence, good and > bad, realized and unrealized, >or rejection and acceptance - emptiness and completion were > always present. >All view, meditation and action is included in that, >and since all the commitments to preserve are also included in > that, >the Great Perfection Atiyoga teaches >four commitments160 to preserve that are kept by not preserving. >Being without interruption in preservation is the commitment > of "non-existence," >being free of duality is "evenness," >everything being perfect in mind is "singularity," >and this completion in itself without anything else is > "spontaneously perfect." >This is the ultimate intention of the victorious ones of the > three times. >------- > > NOTES > >84. gnas lugs: literally, the way of abiding. The true nature or >natural > condition of all phenomena. > >153. This is a play with the term "gom" (bsgom), meditation, and the > word from which it derives, "gom" (goms) becoming habituated or > getting used to something. > >154. Atiyoga, the highest vehicle in the Ancient tradition, equivalent to > the Great Perfection. See note 139. > >139. rnal 'byor chen po, Skt. mahayoga: in the system of classification of > the Ancient tradition (rnying ma), there are six tantric >vehicles: > Kriyatantra, Caryatantra, Yogatantra, Mahayoga, Anuyoga, and > Atiyoga (Skt.), each one "higher" than the last, culminating in > Atiyoga, or the Great Perfection. > >156. bka' brgyud: "oral instruction lineage," one of the four main > schools of Tibetan Buddhism that established a large monastic net- > work. See the "Buddhism in Tibet" section of the introduction. > >157. rtsa dbu ma, Skt. avadhuti: the main channel or energy pathway > (rtsa, Skt. nadi) of the psycho-physical body through which >the vital > winds (rlung, Skt. prana) and seminal drops (thig le, Skt. bindu) > move. It is visualized as being approximately along the inner >side of > the backbone. It is a goal of yogic practice to bring the >vital winds > into the central channel, causing the realization of true nature. > Conversely, by recognizing the intrinsic nature of mind, the >vital > winds will enter spontaneously into the central channel. > >160. dam tshig, Skt. samaya: the "sacred word" or covenant in Vajrayana > between the disciple and the guru, and also the commitment to >the > practices received from the guru. There are different sets of >specific > commitments from different tantras. These are the "four great >spe- > cial commitments" (khyed par chen po'i dam tshig bzhi) >associated > with Atiyoga: non-existence (med pa), evenness (phyal ba), singu- > larity (gcig pu) and spontaneous presence (Ihun grub, although >here > it is Ihun rdzogs). Kongtrul addresses them further in his >Treasury of > Knowledge (shes bya mdzod), vol. II, p. 194. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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