Vijnanamayakos and experiencing it.No substitute for experience.

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

I see the wheel has a few more revolutions, so let me tie them up.

 

I will tell you from my own experience how the 'awareness sheath', or

vijnanamayakosa intuited to me not to eat meat.

I had been meditationg for about 11 months and had not drank alcohol

for 9 months. I had long since given up smoking when I was cutting

sugar cane by hand in the Queensland tropics--Australia.

 

I was on one of my usual extended visits to Oz, visiting family, when

I went to Bondi for a surf. Whilst there I ate a hamburger, a

McDonalds I think. Anyway I fell asleep on the beach and had an

amazing cognitive dream.

 

In this dream I became a cow's consciousness in a slaughterhouse. I

actually experienced the terror, the smell of fear, and death. The

feces and urine on the floor the blood and the mess. The loss the

separation the animal felt, from its loved ones. I even went right up

to the 'killer', or slaughterman whatever. At that time I experienced

what the cow knew. The cow knew from the start of the entire process

that it was going to be killed. As I went forward to be slaughtered I

awoke.

 

Saying: ' My God my God they know, they know, they know they are to

be killed.'

 

I had always all my life said to people: ' If I ever have to really

think about the morality of eating meat, perhaps I won't do it.' But I

was too enmeshed in materialism and intellectualism to do anything

about it.

 

Now I was confronted with the truth, no alibis, I had actually

experiened what I was guilty of contributing and aiding and abetting

in....Suffering!

I had to make a decision. If the meditation and my new spiritual path

was to mean anything, then I realised it was not possible to be on the

road to moksha and eat meat. Otherwise my meditations and path were

really only in the mind and just intellectualism. I went home and

decided that I would become a vegetarian that very day, and I did.

 

That is how the awareness sheath or Higher Mind can work.

 

I believe that moksha is virtually impossible if one is a meat eater.

I'm not talking about jivanmuktis. One cannot be on a spiritual path

and deliberately cause such suffering. It is just intellectual

gymnastics and ego gratification in spiritual materialism to say

anything else.

 

Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

>I will tell you from my own experience how the 'awareness sheath', or

>vijnanamayakosa intuited to me not to eat meat.

>snip<

>Anyway I fell asleep on the beach and had an

>amazing cognitive dream.

>

>In this dream I became a cow's consciousness in a slaughterhouse. I

>snip<

 

I had a similar experience when I was told to stop eating meat and fish.

Eight years later I was very ill with pernicious anemia and going to the

hospital for shots of B12 just to keep going. The doctor said my

vegetarian diet was well done and included enough B12... I bought a can of

tuna and ate it, and it was like having a shot of B12! So I realized that

my body had changed and no longer would take B12 from non-meat sources.

And I went back to eating meat.

 

Actually, it would have been found a year earlier if the doctor had paid

careful attention to my blood tests. Seven years... interesting number.

 

I can only think that it was right for me to be vegetarian for the 7-8

years and then right for me to give it up. So I don't try to tell other

people what they should eat.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

@e..., "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> That is how the awareness sheath or Higher Mind can work.

> I believe that moksha is virtually impossible if one is a meat

eater. I'm not talking about jivanmuktis. One cannot be on a

spiritual path and deliberately cause such suffering. It is just

intellectual gymnastics and ego gratification in spiritual

materialism to say anything else.

 

Hi Tony...

 

Enjoyed reading how you come to believe as you do. I'm sure if I

ever experienced the same, I would give up meat also. It was in the

movie "Powder" that something like that occurred. The teenage boy

was nicknamed "Powder" because he was an albino - If I recall

rightly, his mom had been struck with lightning while she was

pregnant with him. He came into this world with extraordinary

abilities.

 

He saw a man shoot a deer one day. It saddened him so to see the

deer suffering before death. Powder ran over to the deer to comfort

it, and this upset the hunter -- it was his kill!! Powder grabbed

the man and held onto the deer with his other hand, and linked the

two minds together -- the hunter experienced all the suffering the

deer was going through. He was never able to hunt and kill again.

(wich really pissed him off!)

 

A friend of mine has been a strict vegetarian for over 20 years. He

felt the same as you -- he felt such compassion and could literally

vision the animal suffering while he was eating meat. He was careful

to balance his vegetarianism for perfect heath. This last year, he

has reintroduced meat back into his diet on a regular basis -- in

fact, I'm getting ready to go over to his house for a steak bar-b-

que, which would never occurred prior to this! I'm still surprised

at the change in his eating habits. I finally asked him 'why the

change?'

 

He said it felt very much like a karmic thing. Like he had paid off

his debt finally. Maybe he was a hunter in a past life. I dunno.

It's interesting.

 

Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

--- Dear Tony,

It is a fact of this physical existence that all living things must

eventually die. It is not my decision, nor is it yours. The One who

created all of these things here, including us, designed his

creations as he saw fit. He made our physical lives temorary. I

would never presume to question his judgement, I am sure it is

beyond my understanding why things are set up as they are. Life is

a cycle, a sacred circle. when it is altered, changed, when we

presume we know more than God, we are in error. And though we as

humans like to say that Satan is the destroyer of worlds, we do quite

well of our own accord, with no assistance from him. The next time

you feel that it is wrong to eat meat, and it is not what was

intended, take yourself to the natural world we both care so much

for. Tell the circling pack of wolves that they cant eat you,

because it would cause you suffering. Tell the hungry gators to

spit you out, or the sharks to find some seaweed to eat. Meat alone

isnt a balanced diet, and if vegetables alone were then you would

have no need to supplement it with vitamins. It is when you seek

to deviate from what God intended that we need assistance from what

man has made to live. In our efforts to show God his way of

designing this earth was in error we endanger everything on it, the

plants, the animals, and yes, even ourselves. It is a delicate

balance, but it works, it is as it should be, as God made it, and no

one knows better then He, not even you darlin.

Love Gracie

In , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> Namaste All,

>

> I see the wheel has a few more revolutions, so let me tie them up.

>

> I will tell you from my own experience how the 'awareness sheath',

or

> vijnanamayakosa intuited to me not to eat meat.

> I had been meditationg for about 11 months and had not drank

alcohol

> for 9 months. I had long since given up smoking when I was cutting

> sugar cane by hand in the Queensland tropics--Australia.

>

> I was on one of my usual extended visits to Oz, visiting family,

when

> I went to Bondi for a surf. Whilst there I ate a hamburger, a

> McDonalds I think. Anyway I fell asleep on the beach and had an

> amazing cognitive dream.

>

> In this dream I became a cow's consciousness in a slaughterhouse. I

> actually experienced the terror, the smell of fear, and death. The

> feces and urine on the floor the blood and the mess. The loss the

> separation the animal felt, from its loved ones. I even went right

up

> to the 'killer', or slaughterman whatever. At that time I

experienced

> what the cow knew. The cow knew from the start of the entire

process

> that it was going to be killed. As I went forward to be slaughtered

I

> awoke.

>

> Saying: ' My God my God they know, they know, they know they are

to

> be killed.'

>

> I had always all my life said to people: ' If I ever have to really

> think about the morality of eating meat, perhaps I won't do it.'

But I

> was too enmeshed in materialism and intellectualism to do anything

> about it.

>

> Now I was confronted with the truth, no alibis, I had actually

> experiened what I was guilty of contributing and aiding and

abetting

> in....Suffering!

> I had to make a decision. If the meditation and my new spiritual

path

> was to mean anything, then I realised it was not possible to be on

the

> road to moksha and eat meat. Otherwise my meditations and path

were

> really only in the mind and just intellectualism. I went home and

> decided that I would become a vegetarian that very day, and I did.

>

> That is how the awareness sheath or Higher Mind can work.

>

> I believe that moksha is virtually impossible if one is a meat

eater.

> I'm not talking about jivanmuktis. One cannot be on a spiritual

path

> and deliberately cause such suffering. It is just intellectual

> gymnastics and ego gratification in spiritual materialism to say

> anything else.

>

> Om Namah Sivaya.....Tony.

[Guest guest]

, Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> Hi Tony,

>

> >I will tell you from my own experience how the 'awareness sheath',

or

> >vijnanamayakosa intuited to me not to eat meat.

> >snip<

> >Anyway I fell asleep on the beach and had an

> >amazing cognitive dream.

> >

> >In this dream I became a cow's consciousness in a slaughterhouse. I

> >snip<

>

> I had a similar experience when I was told to stop eating meat and

fish.

> Eight years later I was very ill with pernicious anemia and going to

the

> hospital for shots of B12 just to keep going. The doctor said my

> vegetarian diet was well done and included enough B12... I bought a

can of

> tuna and ate it, and it was like having a shot of B12! So I

realized that

> my body had changed and no longer would take B12 from non-meat

sources.

> And I went back to eating meat.

>

> Actually, it would have been found a year earlier if the doctor had

paid

> careful attention to my blood tests. Seven years... interesting

number.

>

> I can only think that it was right for me to be vegetarian for the

7-8

> years and then right for me to give it up. So I don't try to tell

other

> people what they should eat.

>

> Love,

> Dharma

 

Namaste Dharma,

 

I think if you searched for spirulina and other stuff you could find

B12. You should do some more research, lots of dolphins die also to

provide tuna.

I think that I would just have to die rather than eat flesh, from dead

animals. I would not want the karma to save a bag of bones. I don't

tell other's what to eat either, just on this site where people are

supposedly on the spiritual path. It is all about the Awareness

Sheath, getting back to my original post.

 

Om Namah Sivaya......Tony.

[Guest guest]

, crookedlace wrote:

> --- Dear Tony,

> It is a fact of this physical existence that all living things must

> eventually die. It is not my decision, nor is it yours. The One who

> created all of these things here, including us, designed his

> creations as he saw fit. He made our physical lives temorary. I

> would never presume to question his judgement, I am sure it is

> beyond my understanding why things are set up as they are. Life is

> a cycle, a sacred circle. when it is altered, changed, when we

> presume we know more than God, we are in error. And though we as

> humans like to say that Satan is the destroyer of worlds, we do

quite

> well of our own accord, with no assistance from him. The next time

> you feel that it is wrong to eat meat, and it is not what was

> intended, take yourself to the natural world we both care so much

> for. Tell the circling pack of wolves that they cant eat you,

> because it would cause you suffering. Tell the hungry gators to

> spit you out, or the sharks to find some seaweed to eat. Meat

alone

> isnt a balanced diet, and if vegetables alone were then you would

> have no need to supplement it with vitamins. It is when you seek

> to deviate from what God intended that we need assistance from what

> man has made to live. In our efforts to show God his way of

> designing this earth was in error we endanger everything on it, the

> plants, the animals, and yes, even ourselves. It is a delicate

> balance, but it works, it is as it should be, as God made it, and no

> one knows better then He, not even you darlin.

> Love Gracie

Namaste Gracie,

 

The whole point is that we are not of this earth. Again I am talking

about awareness. ONS Tony.

[Guest guest]

---Dear Tony,

The physical body , that is of this earth, so when we leave here it

remains. It becomes food for the plants and animals, it returns to

our mother earth as it should. and the circle is complete. The

spirit is only visiting here, that is true, and that goes on to the

next level, but the body does not go with it. the body belongs

here.

Love Gracie

In , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> , crookedlace wrote:

> > --- Dear Tony,

> > It is a fact of this physical existence that all living things

must

> > eventually die. It is not my decision, nor is it yours. The One

who

> > created all of these things here, including us, designed his

> > creations as he saw fit. He made our physical lives temorary. I

> > would never presume to question his judgement, I am sure it is

> > beyond my understanding why things are set up as they are. Life

is

> > a cycle, a sacred circle. when it is altered, changed, when we

> > presume we know more than God, we are in error. And though we as

> > humans like to say that Satan is the destroyer of worlds, we do

> quite

> > well of our own accord, with no assistance from him. The next

time

> > you feel that it is wrong to eat meat, and it is not what was

> > intended, take yourself to the natural world we both care so

much

> > for. Tell the circling pack of wolves that they cant eat you,

> > because it would cause you suffering. Tell the hungry gators to

> > spit you out, or the sharks to find some seaweed to eat. Meat

> alone

> > isnt a balanced diet, and if vegetables alone were then you would

> > have no need to supplement it with vitamins. It is when you

seek

> > to deviate from what God intended that we need assistance from

what

> > man has made to live. In our efforts to show God his way of

> > designing this earth was in error we endanger everything on it,

the

> > plants, the animals, and yes, even ourselves. It is a delicate

> > balance, but it works, it is as it should be, as God made it, and

no

> > one knows better then He, not even you darlin.

> > Love Gracie

> Namaste Gracie,

>

> The whole point is that we are not of this earth. Again I am

talking

> about awareness. ONS Tony.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

>I think if you searched for spirulina and other stuff you could find

>B12.

------------------

> Dharma and B12-- eggs

>

>Tony:

>Well I've read that eggs are as potent in B 12 as steak.

------------------

>Re: I'll finish where I started.

>

>Tony:

>†Would any veges on here have advice about supplementing or getting B

>†12? For Dharma. Not allopathic obviously.

>

>Jan:

>Many so called sports drinks like Red Bull and Red Devil

>are good sources of vit. B12 and 100% animal free.

-------------------

 

It is _easy_ to get plenty of B12 from non-meat sources! As I told you,

_I_ was getting _plenty_ of B12 from non-meat sources... my body just

became unable to utilize it. The same thing happened to a friend of mine

after being vegetarian for 16 years.

 

Injections are some help, but no solution. You feel super at first but

decline rapidly. Pretty soon you're totally exhausted, just trying to drag

yourself to work and keep your eyes open while you're there.

 

I was also getting extra folic acid, which is needed to use B12, and the

injections included folic acid. So that was not the cause of the problem,

and no one knew what caused the problem.

-------------------

>Tony:

>I think that I would just have to die rather than eat flesh, from dead

>animals. I would not want the karma to save a bag of bones.

 

You can make that choice for yourself, if you ever come to be in that

situation. But I won't let you make it for me. I make my own decisions,

that's part of growing.

>I don't

>tell other's what to eat either, just on this site where people are

>supposedly on the spiritual path.

 

You tell only spiritually oriented people what to do? Every decision is an

opportunity for growth. If you make someone's decision for him, you take

away his opportunity for growth.

 

Seems to me that would add to your own karmic burden.

--------------------

 

Don't feel sorry for me in my non-vegetarian state, Tony dear. I live in

peace and joy in this world. I agree with everything Gracie says on these

matters... she knows about living in harmony with the earth.

 

Walk in beauty and harmony, Tony.

 

Dharma

[Guest guest]

, Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> Hi Tony,

 

Namaste Dharma,

 

Try the unfertilised eggs then, they are meat without a jiva!!Unless

this is an alibi, the tuna/B 12 that is. Dolphins die in tuna nets

also.

 

I suppose its your own business in the end, but not as a moderator of

a club like this I would think. Perhaps my point about this club is

valid.

 

ONS Tony

[Guest guest]

---Dear Tony,

HUMMMMMM, i think i better look at the name on this list, i thought

i was in Harsha's list, not TONY'S. I think it is for Harsha to

decide who does what as it is his list is it not? and my arent we

judgemental. are you threatened by opinions that differ from your

own?

Love Gracie

In , "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:

> > Hi Tony,

>

> Namaste Dharma,

>

> Try the unfertilised eggs then, they are meat without a jiva!!

Unless

> this is an alibi, the tuna/B 12 that is. Dolphins die in tuna nets

> also.

>

> I suppose its your own business in the end, but not as a moderator

of

> a club like this I would think. Perhaps my point about this club is

> valid.

>

> ONS Tony

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

>Try the unfertilised eggs then, they are meat without a jiva!!

 

Once more, Tony, and please listen! I was getting plenty of B12... yes, I

was eating eggs... my body couldn't utilize the B12.

>Unless

>this is an alibi,

 

Good grief, Tony! Where did this come from? Why did I even mention it to

you? I wasn't under attack...

>the tuna/B 12 that is. Dolphins die in tuna nets

>also.

 

And that's a completely different topic. A red herring, so to speak...

>I suppose its your own business in the end,

 

It certainly is! So drop it.

>but not as a moderator of

>a club like this I would think. Perhaps my point about this club is

>valid.

 

Who's a moderator?? And what _club_ are you talking about??

 

If that's another swipe at Harsha's list, I have no official standing here.

Just another member of the sangha.

 

Dharma