Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 lovely dialogue....a recent comment of mirror to white wolfe that he cherishes in the same vein “We must carve our hearts out of suffering in order to make room for higher love.” - Valentine and a poem.....love being of course higher love as in compassion....^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe Meditation on Suffering and Love “..when death comes knocking at the door....” - Tagore i am here…, there is a white wolfe come to devour you, beware… i am here to show you what lies in the moonshadows love is death…death is love…love is unto death death knocks always at the door of the noble heart ah, you will say, you do not fool me, white one i answer, silly you, how do you see, hear, touch look deeply into the mirror or the smoking waters know yourself as I know you in your reflection you see with the daggers of two golden eyes you hear with the silence of two empty drums you touch with the fire of four burning paws i am the ice beneath you that burns your paws i am the song that can be heard with only one ear i am your third eye blind that seeing sees nothing the white wolfe knows that the taste of love is red your third eye is blind seeing nothing where i see all you have two ears that are deaf while miy one hears harmony your feet touch four corners while I am a simple circle know myself as You know Me in my reflection look deeply into the mirror of the smoking waters you ask, foolish you, how do you see, hear, touch ah, i simply answer, you do not fool me, dark ones death knocks always at the door of the mystic mind death is love...love is death…death is unto love we are what lies in the moonshadows behind us ahead there runs a white wolfe waiting to devour us, let us be awake which one are we, dear reader, which one the white wolfe or, one of the black wolves one of the black wolves, or the white wolfe which one, dear reader, which one are we let us see with the eye that seeing cannot be seen let us hear with ears that hear the music of silence let us run quickly over ice that our paws burn not it is when death comes knocking that we discover love it is when love come knocking that we discover death we are here…, there is a white wolfe among us to teach that without death there is no love, without love there is no death without the white wolfe, there is no pack of dark wolves without the pack, the hope of one white wolfe is nought without the Beloved, there is no Lover, without many Lovers, there is no Beloved… Ah, My Chevalier, Sacred Heart of Jesus, I take up my Cross and follow you, without Suffering there is no Love ______________________ i, who am the white wolfe, ask you to run with me, i am your mind, your heart, your soul calling you to run, run, run, for what lies yesterday today and tomorrow and always beyond! i am here…I am Spirit…I Am Love! mark christopher valentine Q: So one should try to ameliorate suffering , even if one knows that ultimately it is nonexistent ? A: There never was and never will be a time when all are equally happy or rich or wise or healthy. In fact none of these has any meaning except in so far as the opposite to it exists. But that does not mean that when you come across anyone who is less happy or more miserable than yourself , you are not to be moved to compassion or to seek to relieve him as best as you can. On the contrary, you must love all and help all , since only in that way can you help yourself. When you seek to reduce the suffering of any fellow man or fellow creature , whether your efforts succeed or not , you are yourself evolving spiritually especially if such service is rendered disinterestedly , not with the egotistic feeling "I am doing this", but in the spirit "God is making me the channel of this service ; he is the doer and I am the instrument. " If one knows the truth that all that one gives to others is giving only to oneself , who indeed will not be a virtous person and perform the kind of acting of giving to others ? Since everyone is one's own Self , whoever does whatever to whomever is doing it only to himself. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BE AS YOU ARE , The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by David Godman~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 , "vicki" <viorica@z...> wrote: > Q: > So one should try to ameliorate suffering , > even if one knows that ultimately it is nonexistent ? > > A: > There never was and never will be a time when all are > equally happy or rich or wise or healthy. > In fact none of these has any meaning except in so far > as the opposite to it exists. But that does not mean > that when you come across anyone who is less happy > or more miserable than yourself , you are not to be moved > to compassion or to seek to relieve him as best as you can. > > On the contrary, you must love all and help all , > since only in that way can you help yourself. When you seek > to reduce the suffering of any fellow man or fellow creature , > whether your efforts succeed or not , you are yourself > evolving spiritually especially if such service is rendered > disinterestedly , not with the egotistic feeling > "I am doing this", but in the spirit "God is making me > the channel of this service ; he is the doer and I am > the instrument. " > > If one knows the truth that all that one gives to others > is giving only to oneself , who indeed will not be a virtous > person and perform the kind of acting of giving to others ? > > Since everyone is one's own Self , whoever does whatever > to whomever is doing it only to himself. Namaste All, This also applies to animals.....ONS Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 , "White Wolfe" <valemar@m...> wrote:> mark christopher valentine > > Q: > So one should try to ameliorate suffering , > even if one knows that ultimately it is nonexistent ? > > > On the contrary, you must love all and help all , > since only in that way can you help yourself. When you seek > to reduce the suffering of any fellow man or fellow creature , > whether your efforts succeed or not , you are yourself > evolving spiritually especially if such service is rendered > disinterestedly , not with the egotistic feeling > "I am doing this", but in the spirit "God is making me > the channel of this service ; he is the doer and I am > the instrument. " Namaste All, Again this falls in with my recent posts about meat eating etc, as it causes suffering to the animal. Not counting the interference with the animal's karma, unless perhaps it is a past human come back to be killed to pay off responsibilities in an animal death..meat eating for example? Again the emphasis is on compassion, without it liberation is difficult. Eating meat indicates no compassion for an animal over and above satisfying one's egoistic desire to eat flesh. Helping people or Seva reduces attention away from oneself, thus not building the ego. All this has to do again with purification of the awareness sheath or kosa. Om Namah Sivaya......Tony. Om Namah Sivaya...Tony., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > > Namaste All, > > > > This also applies to animals.....ONS > > > > It seems to me that the suffering you ascribe to meat eating is more attributable to > modern agri-business, to the competitive capitalist system that demands maximum > production at minimum cost. > Where I live, in rural Nova Scotia, most households have deermeat in the freezer. The > deer herd here is healthy, more deer are born each year than the land can support, > some die each winter from starvation. If a controlled number are taken in the fall by > people for food, it seems to me that that lessens the suffering of the deer overall. > > andrew Namaste Andrew, We are on different pages, there are animal vibrations in meat that are an impediment to spiritual developement. With this Ramana agrees. The other point is Ahimsa, the actual killing of an animal, is also a deterrent and is not compassion. The deer herd needs its own space within a park with its own natural limitations on life etc....ONS Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Tony O'Clery wrote: > > , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste All, > > > > > > This also applies to animals.....ONS > > > > > > > It seems to me that the suffering you ascribe to meat eating is more > attributable to > > modern agri-business, to the competitive capitalist system that > demands maximum > > production at minimum cost. > > Where I live, in rural Nova Scotia, most households have deermeat in > the freezer. The > > deer herd here is healthy, more deer are born each year than the > land can support, > > some die each winter from starvation. If a controlled number are > taken in the fall by > > people for food, it seems to me that that lessens the suffering of > the deer overall. > > > > andrew > > Namaste Andrew, > > We are on different pages, there are animal vibrations in meat that > are an impediment to spiritual developement. With this Ramana agrees. So in this case, the reason for not eating meat is one's own spiritual gain, rather than ameliorating suffering? > The other point is Ahimsa, the actual killing of an animal, is also a > deterrent and is not compassion. Is it less compassionate that 5% of the deer herd be shot as cleanly and painlessly as possible for food than to leave those animals to starve in the winter? Which course ameliorates suffering? > The deer herd needs its own space within a park with its own natural > limitations on life etc. Aren't human beings part of nature? ....ONS Tony. > peace, andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > , andrew macnab <a.macnab@n...> wrote: > > > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste All, > > > > > > > > This also applies to animals.....ONS > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the suffering you ascribe to meat eating is more > > attributable to > > > modern agri-business, to the competitive capitalist system that > > demands maximum > > > production at minimum cost. > > > Where I live, in rural Nova Scotia, most households have deermeat in > > the freezer. The > > > deer herd here is healthy, more deer are born each year than the > > land can support, > > > some die each winter from starvation. If a controlled number are > > taken in the fall by > > > people for food, it seems to me that that lessens the suffering of > > the deer overall. > > > > > > andrew > > > > Namaste Andrew, > > > > We are on different pages, there are animal vibrations in meat that > > are an impediment to spiritual developement. With this Ramana agrees. > > > So in this case, the reason for not eating meat is one's own spiritual gain, rather > than ameliorating suffering? > > > > The other point is Ahimsa, the actual killing of an animal, is also a > > deterrent and is not compassion. > > Is it less compassionate that 5% of the deer herd be shot as cleanly and painlessly as > possible for food than to leave those animals to starve in the winter? Which course > ameliorates suffering? > > > > The deer herd needs its own space within a park with its own natural > > limitations on life etc. > > Aren't human beings part of nature? > > ...ONS Tony. > > > > peace, > andrew Namaste, Ask the human beings, who build and build and destroy the environment etc..ONS Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Tony O'Clery wrote: > > Namaste All, > > This also applies to animals.....ONS > It seems to me that the suffering you ascribe to meat eating is more attributable to modern agri-business, to the competitive capitalist system that demands maximum production at minimum cost. Where I live, in rural Nova Scotia, most households have deermeat in the freezer. The deer herd here is healthy, more deer are born each year than the land can support, some die each winter from starvation. If a controlled number are taken in the fall by people for food, it seems to me that that lessens the suffering of the deer overall. andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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