Subjective / Objective Enquiry (was Dakini in Meditation)

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony:

 

You wrote:

> From the teachings of Buddhaghosa.

> As the meditator progresses he/she eventually reaches a high degree of

> concentration where the object of meditation becomes a counterpart

> sign. An image created by the mind on its own accord, a perception of

> the object somewhat different from the original.This happens at the

> neural level because the image created by the mind becomes steadier an

> d more concrete so it can be seen eyes open or shut. This new image is

> created independently of the lower consciousness and is a more perfect

> image than the original.

 

 

Too bad you had to quote again, but all right, lets make the best of it.

 

Of course this quote does not fit a person at all who is into trying to

answer the question, "Who am I?"

It would be better to discard it, but as a sadhana exercise it is good to

see how you make this quote fit YOUR purpose.

If you don't do that, Tony, misleading approaches will sneak in through the

backdoor that deviate from your own authentic and original endeavour... Your

search for inner self and truth gets prolonged as you just stepped onto

someone else's path.

 

I'll show what to do with external-second-hand-non-personal-material and how

you can transform it into your own.

I used to have to do that a lot, as in my earlier years there was not much

good information easily available in Holland, apart from Christianity.

 

That transformation of external-second-hand-non-personal-material is like

the digestive process. The expression "You are what you eat" can be applied

here as: "You are what you read" but in the following sense: "You are what

you eat" does not mean that you are carrots and rice or chicken wings or soy

beans or broccoli or even an apple or an orange :-) Whatever you eat gets

transformed, and whatever is not befitting or eventually useful gets

eliminated.

When we read we need to do the same. While reading, memorizing and quoting

you will not be Krishna, or Ramana, or Buddhaghosa, or Buddha or Suzuki. You

are not what you quote, but YOU will be the authentic wisdom that YOU

recognized as original wisdom in their words..

 

Some foods may pretty well go straight into the system like mother's milk

(although there is still plenty of poo and pee to deal with). The same with

what you read, there is good material that goes straight to the heart. Still

you are not mother's milk, nor are you your mother, neither will you be

Ramana or Wim... so do not fear the guru or this wise guy. As you eat him

alive, nothing of his original form will be left, in fact most of him will

be eliminated.

 

Humans do not keep drinking mother's milk, just like humans will not keep

reading the straight truth. So, one has to metabolize one's verbal intake ,

which is disintegration, transformation, absorption and elimination. Unless

you discard texts off hand, the same metabolic process can be used with

whatever you read... That way quotes will stop being quotes and turn into

your wisdom (chit).

 

You quoted from the teachings of Buddhaghosa.

> As the meditator progresses he/she eventually

> reaches a high degree of concentration where the

> object of meditation becomes a counterpart sign.

 

You profess, that you with Ramana are into subjective inquiry: "Who am I,"

That being the case you have to transform Buddhaghosa's guidance of

'objective inquiry' into 'subjective enquiry'. See how you can transform

this quote so that it serves YOU.

 

Bg's term "object of meditation" needs to become 'subject of meditation':

"I."

Bit of a problem with "counterpart sign" as this is quite objectified, a bit

too much extrapolation. So the quote can be transformed and personalised and

becomes your own self guidance as follows:

 

"As I progress I will reach a degree of concentration where I become my

counterpart being, my higher self, initially still extrapolated"

> An image created by the mind on its own accord,

> a perception of the object somewhat different

> from the original.

 

Instead of "perception of the object," this becomes in subjective inquiry

'perception of the subject' "I."

The word "mind" is an objectified faculty used by Bg, but you can replace it

simply with 'me'. The word "original" is not used appropriately by Bg. He

actually means something like 'pseudo object that you started off with'.

 

So the quote becomes:

*A self image created by me on my own accord through self inquiry, a

perception of me different from the pseudo-me that I started off with before

self inquiry.*

> This happens at the neural level because the

> image created by the mind becomes steadier

> and more concrete so it can be seen eyes open

> or shut.

 

"This happens at the neural level" sounds a bit too mechanical and non

self-involved. After all, you are doing "self inquisition" so you may

recognize YOURSELF as the operator, not the objectified mind, the mind as

though that is an organ separate from or alien in you.

 

So the quote becomes at first:

*At the physical level I become steadier and more concrete so that gradually

I see myself more often as self evident, and ultimately that I am.*

 

After a bit of rework it becomes:

*I will then reach such a degree of concentration that on the physical level

my self image becomes steadier and more concrete so that gradually I realise

myself as self evident, and ultimately... directly I know that I am.*

> This new image is created independently

> of the lower consciousness and is a more

> perfect image than the original.

 

At this stage "the lower consciousness" actually disappears, so we can strip

that from the quote. The word "independently" could be stripped as well,

because in real independence there is no dependant or causal other. The word

is almost superfluous unless it point to 'self-cause'. "This new image" is

now not an external and objectified "I" image (ego) as

that went poof. "This new image" is SELF, your self-evident identity. The

old separate and objectified I dissolves into the real original perfect.

The word "image" becomes identity.

Bg. did not use the word "original" properly so we take the audacity to

correct him... and why not. What remains is one's original identity: The

answer to "Who am I"

Neat eh?

 

So the quote becomes:

*Created independently and perfectly 'I am'.*

 

Hey, that is the original meaning of the Yahweh !!!

"I am being been"

"I am the cause and effect of me being"

So Ham

I am That, I am This

I AM.

 

This is it!

 

Now all this was done with words... Of course real sadhana does that with

stuff... your body, Tony, here and now, the five physical perceptive senses

and the sixth comprehensive one: mind.

The word perception was not shunned by Bg. Good for him. So senses were

involved as perception without them is impossible. He even used the word

mind, he did not shun that either, again so good for him. This Bg. guy is a

good

teacher except that he objectifies a little too much.

 

Notice what we did here, we made all those objectifying words personal, we

de-objectified them... and... we did not get into some form of self

denial...

That cannot be allowed as the question is "Who am I?"

 

So we spiralled to a greater reintegrative understanding and... in our

words.

 

I remember that one of Ramana's guests thought that the answer to

"Who am I?" was a denial of self: "I am nothing." Ramana asked that guest

"Who is saying that?"

 

After a bit of additional work, the new text is thus:

 

As I progress through self inquiry I will reach a degree of concentration in

which at first I appear to become my a counterpart being, my higher self,

initially still extrapolated. A self image recreated by me on my own accord

through self inquiry, a perception of me different from the pseudo-me that I

started off with before self inquiry.

I will reach such a degree of concentration that on the physical level my

self image becomes steadier and more concrete so that gradually I realise

myself as self evident, and ultimately... directly I know that I am.

Created independently and perfectly 'I am'.

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

, "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote:

> Tony, I would so love to meet you in person and talk about what you

say

> here:

>

> > My lower mind so loves the rituals and habits, so I indulge it

> > somewhat and then it is happy and lets me move on to non dual

> > meditation.

>

> All this can be done differently without the self mild deprecation

that you

> express when you say :"So I indulge it somewhat."

>

> From the Original SELF those rituals will be enjoyed as celebrations

in

> Glorious Bliss, not rituals exercises or observances to get you

somewhere or

> bring something about... Oh, Tony, if you could hear me...

> Remnants of self criticism however mild and bitterness about the

world (and

> you have some) would fall away from you...

> When what you do is done the other way around, radically... it

works...

>

> > However my lower mind doesn't know as much so I use certain

> > preparatory practices like, Japa, imaging etc as a precursor to

> > meditation, kind of getting the lower mind in the right direction.

>

> That is what I meant with in my previous post to you about the paths

that

> lead to your backdoor, that may misguide you and keep you on someone

else's

> path.

>

> > From there I proceed to mental mantras and from there to non form.

>

> It is suggested the other way around by Ramana (and me). You have

not tried

> it as the old habits caused by security issues still prevail.

>

> > I suppose I learned the Eastern Way because it was similar to my

> > Catholic Altar Boy experiences of Saints, incense, candles and

> > images. I recognised the territory so to speak, although as an

altar

> > boy I had been known to 'pass out', during High Masses etc etc.

>

> I can so relate to that...

>

> > So I approach the non dual through the dual still, in my

meditation

> > ritual. But I do know that it is all images of my own mind.

>

> Would you consider visiting me once... I won't eat you alive, but I

will

> allow you to take a good bite out of me... or if you want to... you

can eat

> me alive...

> I'm here for the taking...

>

> Dear Tony, Dear.

> Love, Wim

 

Namaste Wim,

 

I'll meet you eventually perhaps when I next come to Vancouver Island.

Yes I have a habit and it doesn't come from insecurity as such but

from the fact that I learned meditation and mind control in the Hindu

fashion. I'm quite comfortable with that and I understand it well.

Giving the mind something to do, the monkey mind. Even Maharaj sang

bhajans and no doubt Ramana participated as well.

It is all part of my preparation for concentration and one

pointedness, but my meditation includes no form, after the mantras.

 

I don't think Ramana has any fast rules on this and anyway he is not

my Guru, although I have been reading him for many years.

 

I have found a way to find water so there is no real need for me to go

around digging other wells all around the place. I appreciate your

post though.

 

Om Namah Sivaya....Tony.

[Guest guest]

tony and wim....smilingly (how does a mad and crazy dog smile...dog's don't

smile or do they....this one does!)

 

from a long time ago....a previous lifetime....a lifetime before the

Beloved....before the witness.....but after ritual and before

Nothing.....yet not a long time ago....the next lifetime....or is all just

lifetime.....you two dance together so well.....ritual no ritual....mirror

no mirror....each chasing the other's tale.....or the other's tail......this

string reminds of myself and my not-self...and my love of pigs...and not

pigs...and pig poetry too, that is....smilingly.....^^~~~~~

 

further up and further in,

 

white wolfe

 

of Nothing,

 

"Give us this day our daily bread."

-Matthew 6:11

 

of Nothing,

will come nothing: except Peace.

something will come,

of Something: except Peace.

 

Nature herself - who can be no better

or worse made but by her own hand - is the

porcelain past evolving the clay future:

She is rushing and unmitigated;

the all becoming the all becoming.

Nature is Something -- Something is waxing.

 

of Something,

will come something: except Peace.

nothing will come,

of Nothing: except Peace.

 

Nature herself - who can be no better

or worse made but by her own hand - is the

porcelain past involving the clay future:

She is crying and unassuaged;

the all becoming the all becoming.

 

nothing will come,

of Nothing: except Peace.

of Something,

will come something: except Peace.

 

Nature herself - who can be no better

or worse made but by her own hand - is the

clay future revolving the porcelain past:

She is dying and unpalliated;

the all becoming the all becoming.

 

something will come,

of Something: except Peace.

of Nothing,

will come nothing: except Peace.

 

Nature herserlf - who can be no better

or worse made but by her own hand - is the

clay future devolving the porcelain past:

She is rushing

and crying

and dying:

the all becoming the all becoming.

Nature is Something - Something is waning.

 

of Nothing,

will come nothing: except Peace.

of Something,

will come Something: except Peace.

 

Peace will come of Nothing: Death is Nothing.

Sorrow will come of Something: Dying is Something.

Something will come,

of Nothing,

will come Peace.

 

-Mark Christopher Valentine

 

..

Subjective / Objective Enquiry (was Re: Dakini in

Meditation)

 

> , "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote:

> > Tony, I would so love to meet you in person and talk about what you

> say

> > here:

> >

> > > My lower mind so loves the rituals and habits, so I indulge it

> > > somewhat and then it is happy and lets me move on to non dual

> > > meditation.

> >

> > All this can be done differently without the self mild deprecation

> that you

> > express when you say :"So I indulge it somewhat."

> >

> > From the Original SELF those rituals will be enjoyed as celebrations

> in

> > Glorious Bliss, not rituals exercises or observances to get you

> somewhere or

> > bring something about... Oh, Tony, if you could hear me...

> > Remnants of self criticism however mild and bitterness about the

> world (and

> > you have some) would fall away from you...

> > When what you do is done the other way around, radically... it

> works...

> >

> > > However my lower mind doesn't know as much so I use certain

> > > preparatory practices like, Japa, imaging etc as a precursor to

> > > meditation, kind of getting the lower mind in the right direction.

> >

> > That is what I meant with in my previous post to you about the paths

> that

> > lead to your backdoor, that may misguide you and keep you on someone

> else's

> > path.

> >

> > > From there I proceed to mental mantras and from there to non form.

> >

> > It is suggested the other way around by Ramana (and me). You have

> not tried

> > it as the old habits caused by security issues still prevail.

> >

> > > I suppose I learned the Eastern Way because it was similar to my

> > > Catholic Altar Boy experiences of Saints, incense, candles and

> > > images. I recognised the territory so to speak, although as an

> altar

> > > boy I had been known to 'pass out', during High Masses etc etc.

> >

> > I can so relate to that...

> >

> > > So I approach the non dual through the dual still, in my

> meditation

> > > ritual. But I do know that it is all images of my own mind.

> >

> > Would you consider visiting me once... I won't eat you alive, but I

> will

> > allow you to take a good bite out of me... or if you want to... you

> can eat

> > me alive...

> > I'm here for the taking...

> >

> > Dear Tony, Dear.

> > Love, Wim

>

> Namaste Wim,

>

> I'll meet you eventually perhaps when I next come to Vancouver Island.

> Yes I have a habit and it doesn't come from insecurity as such but

> from the fact that I learned meditation and mind control in the Hindu

> fashion. I'm quite comfortable with that and I understand it well.

> Giving the mind something to do, the monkey mind. Even Maharaj sang

> bhajans and no doubt Ramana participated as well.

> It is all part of my preparation for concentration and one

> pointedness, but my meditation includes no form, after the mantras.

>

> I don't think Ramana has any fast rules on this and anyway he is not

> my Guru, although I have been reading him for many years.

>

> I have found a way to find water so there is no real need for me to go

> around digging other wells all around the place. I appreciate your

> post though.

>

> Om Namah Sivaya....Tony.

>

>