Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 davidsan.....aweome poetry....i will post over at POL.....freedom from desire is chosing desire when it time to desire and not desiring when it time to rest from desiring....resistance of reality is futility, dukkha, bondage....i desire the beloved with a pure desire.....desiring and not desiring as the moon waxes and wanes....all things arising and falling in their proper time and oders.....^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfeRe: Attachments Tao Te Ching! > Dear Tony, a poem for you. : ) > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/3908/desire.htm > > Love, > David > > > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > Namaste All, > > > > Quotations from The Tao Te Ching) > > > > There is no greater sin than desire, > > No greater curse than discontent, > > No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself. > > Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough. > > (46) > > > > He who is attached to things will suffer much. > > (44) > > > > Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. > > Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. > > These two spring from the same source but differ in name; > > this appears as darkness. > > Darkness within darkness. > > The gate to all mystery. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 , "White Wolfe" <valemar@m...> wrote: > davidsan.....aweome poetry....i will post over at POL.....freedom from > desire is chosing desire when it time to desire and not desiring when it > time to rest from desiring....resistance of reality is futility, dukkha, > bondage....i desire the beloved with a pure desire.....desiring and not > desiring as the moon waxes and wanes....all things arising and falling in > their proper time and oders.....^^~~~~~ > > further up and further in, > > white wolfeRe: Attachments Tao Te Ching! > > > > Dear Tony, a poem for you. : ) > > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/3908/desire.htm Namaste, I'm speechless.....Tony > > > > Love, > > David > > > > > > Tony O'Clery wrote: > > > > > Namaste All, > > > > > > Quotations from The Tao Te Ching) > > > > > > There is no greater sin than desire, > > > No greater curse than discontent, > > > No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself. > > > Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough. > > > (46) > > > > > > He who is attached to things will suffer much. > > > (44) > > > > > > Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. > > > Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. > > > These two spring from the same source but differ in name; > > > this appears as darkness. > > > Darkness within darkness. > > > The gate to all mystery. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 Hi Wolf, >davidsan.....aweome poetry....i will post over at POL.....freedom from >desire is chosing desire when it time to desire and not desiring when it >time to rest from desiring....resistance of reality is futility, dukkha, >bondage....i desire the beloved with a pure desire.....desiring and not >desiring as the moon waxes and wanes....all things arising and falling in >their proper time and oders.....^^~~~~~ Yes!! If you are hung up on desiring, that is attachment. If you are hung up on not desiring, that is attachment. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 Dear Tony, a poem for you. : ) http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/3908/desire.htm Love, David Tony O'Clery wrote: > Namaste All, > > Quotations from The Tao Te Ching) > > There is no greater sin than desire, > No greater curse than discontent, > No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself. > Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough. > (46) > > He who is attached to things will suffer much. > (44) > > Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. > Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. > These two spring from the same source but differ in name; > this appears as darkness. > Darkness within darkness. > The gate to all mystery. NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote: > Hi Wolf, > > >davidsan.....aweome poetry....i will post over at POL.....freedom from > >desire is chosing desire when it time to desire and not desiring when it > >time to rest from desiring....resistance of reality is futility, dukkha, > >bondage....i desire the beloved with a pure desire.....desiring and not > >desiring as the moon waxes and wanes....all things arising and falling in > >their proper time and oders.....^^~~~~~ > > Yes!! > > If you are hung up on desiring, that is attachment. If you are hung up on > not desiring, that is attachment. > > Love, > Dharma Namaste Dharma, You'll have join WW on his lost search for the Tao in the canals or carnals of Amsterdam. Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion but a withdrawal from both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward aversion is an outward desire for non aversion.........ONS ..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 Wonderful. Thanx for the invitation. Just joined. : ) David White Wolfe wrote: > davidsan.....aweome poetry....i will post over at POL.... NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 Toooooony!!!!!!!!! Notions notions notions Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiim > Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion but a withdrawal from > both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward aversion is an > outward desire for non aversion.........ONS ..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2001 Report Share Posted May 27, 2001 "I've got a head full of ideas that are drivin' me insane!" -- Bob Dylan, "Maggie's Farm" Hint: you cannot willfully withdraw from either aversion or desire (they are essentially identical, btw) -- that is itself an incident of desire! :-) On Sun, 27 May 2001 18:35:39 -0700 "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere writes: > Toooooony!!!!!!!!! > Notions notions notions > Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiim > > > Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion but a withdrawal > from > > both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward aversion is > an > > outward desire for non aversion.........ONS ..Tony. > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of > the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is > always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know > the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee > relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from > within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 Hi Tony, >> If you are hung up on desiring, that is attachment. If you are hung >up on >> not desiring, that is attachment. > > >You'll have join WW on his lost search for the Tao in the canals or >carnals of Amsterdam. > >Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion but a withdrawal from >both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward aversion is an >outward desire for non aversion. Hmm, maybe you wrote this at the wrong time of day... It's difficult to answer something that doesn't make any sense. However... > You'll have join WW on his lost search for the Tao in >the canals or > carnals of Amsterdam. Have you noticed that nobody answers this part? That's because it doesn't mean anything... it conveys no information. It's just a slam at other people that makes you feel smart and superior. (Blocks to be found there!) > Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion... You seem to be saying that it's okay to be hung up on something. But not on other things. Doesn't make sense, Tony. Hung up is hung up. It's attachment and a block to progress. >but a >withdrawal from > both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward >aversion is an > outward desire for non aversion.. It's hard to make sense of the rest of this. The second sentence seems to be two sentences, but it isn't clear what is meant to be included in each one. >It is a turning inward aversion If that's a sentence, I don't understand it. >aversion is an outward desire for non aversion.. If that's a sentence, that doesn't make sense either. Maybe you could re-state this... or re-think it? "Desire" is a tricky word... it's sometimes used to mean intention or purpose, which is of a much higher level than emotions. But I gather you're talking about emotional-plane desire. I know Ramana seemed to be free of problems with desire. And to you it seems good to have no desires. But you can't get there by keeping up a constant battle against desiring. As Bruce said, it's all the same thing. If you have to battle against desiring, you've got a problem with desire. Ramana wasn't sitting around fighting against desiring. The only way you can work with a problem on a certain level is from a higher level. Get up onto a higher plane, from where that stuff just won't matter. But it's hard to get onto a higher plane when you're so busy fighting against desires and writing lots of wordy intellectual arguments and put-downs. Is a puzzlement, huh? )) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 , Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote: > "I've got a head full of ideas > that are drivin' me insane!" > -- Bob Dylan, "Maggie's Farm" > > Hint: you cannot willfully > withdraw from either aversion > or desire (they are essentially > identical, btw) -- that is > itself an incident of desire! Namaste Bruce, Absolutely wrong! It is elementary my dear Bruce. They only belong to the mind. If you were right there would never have been a yogi or a realised person.....ONS.....Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote: > Hi Tony, > > >> If you are hung up on desiring, that is attachment. If you are hung > >up on > >> not desiring, that is attachment. > > > > > >You'll have join WW on his lost search for the Tao in the canals or > >carnals of Amsterdam. > > > >Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion but a withdrawal from > >both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward aversion is an > >outward desire for non aversion. > > > Hmm, maybe you wrote this at the wrong time of day... > > It's difficult to answer something that doesn't make any sense. However... > > > You'll have join WW on his lost search for the Tao in > >the canals or > > carnals of Amsterdam. > > Have you noticed that nobody answers this part? That's because it doesn't > mean anything... it conveys no information. It's just a slam at other > people that makes you feel smart and superior. > (Blocks to be found there!) > > > Being hung up on not desire is not an aversion... > > You seem to be saying that it's okay to be hung up on something. But not > on other things. > > Doesn't make sense, Tony. Hung up is hung up. It's attachment and a block > to progress. > > >but a > >withdrawal from > > both aversion and attachment. It is a turning inward > >aversion is an > > outward desire for non aversion.. > > It's hard to make sense of the rest of this. The second sentence seems to > be two sentences, but it isn't clear what is meant to be included in each > one. > > >It is a turning inward aversion > > If that's a sentence, I don't understand it. > > >aversion is an outward desire for non aversion.. > > If that's a sentence, that doesn't make sense either. > > Maybe you could re-state this... or re-think it? > > "Desire" is a tricky word... it's sometimes used to mean intention or > purpose, which is of a much higher level than emotions. But I gather > you're talking about emotional-plane desire. > > I know Ramana seemed to be free of problems with desire. And to you it > seems good to have no desires. But you can't get there by keeping up a > constant battle against desiring. As Bruce said, it's all the same thing. > If you have to battle against desiring, you've got a problem with desire. > > Ramana wasn't sitting around fighting against desiring. > > The only way you can work with a problem on a certain level is from a > higher level. Get up onto a higher plane, from where that stuff just won't > matter. > > But it's hard to get onto a higher plane when you're so busy fighting > against desires and writing lots of wordy intellectual arguments and > put-downs. > > Is a puzzlement, huh? )) > > Love, > Dharma Namaste All, I actually thought all these well read people had a head start on me!! However it is the mind and getting above the mind through meditations burns up the samskaras of desire/aversion. Most of the comments on here are about the mind, some seem to forget the whole process is getting above it and purifying the buddhi.ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 Tony: > I actually thought all these well read people had a head start on me!! > However it is the mind and getting above the mind through meditations > burns up the samskaras of desire/aversion. Oh, thank heavens we have at least one person on this list who truly understands what is going on here. > Most of the comments on here are about the mind, some seem to forget > the whole process is getting above it and purifying the > buddhi.ONS...Tony. Indeed. Some seem to have forgotten the whole point entirely.... :-) In blissful forgetfulness, with my mind above my doorstep, some samskaras to keep the fireplace burning, and buddhi airfreshener in the restroom... Love, Mira http://welcome.to/mirror PerceptionsOfLife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 >>Bruce: >>"I've got a head full of ideas >> that are drivin' me insane!" >>-- Bob Dylan, "Maggie's Farm" >> >>Hint: you cannot willfully >>withdraw from either aversion >>or desire (they are essentially >>identical, btw) -- that is >>itself an incident of desire! >> :-) > >Tony: >Absolutely wrong! It is elementary my dear Bruce. They only belong to the >mind. If you were right there would never have been a yogi or a realised >person. You are taking "withdraw" in another sense, Tony. (You say they belong to the mind. Actually, they are emotions and are part of kama-manas, the emotional plane.) In meditation it's quite possible to withdraw from the emotions, in the sense of moving your focus of consciousness to a higher plane. In doing that, you do nothing to change or get rid of the emotions... you simply move to where you don't notice them... because that isn't where you are, see? But Bruce, I think, was answering you in the sense in which you were talking... of coping with desire by pulling back from it, avoiding it, squelching it in some way. And he's right... that kind of withdrawal simply doesn't work. It doesn't change the desire that's there... and you are getting hung up with another desire, which is to avoid desire. )) >>Dharma: >>I know Ramana seemed to be free of problems with desire. And to you it >>seems good to have no desires. But you can't get there by keeping up a >>constant battle against desiring. As Bruce said, it's all the same thing. >>If you have to battle against desiring, you've got a problem with desire. >> >>Ramana wasn't sitting around fighting against desiring. >> >>The only way you can work with a problem on a certain level is from a >>higher level. Get up onto a higher plane, from where that stuff just won't >>matter. >> >>But it's hard to get onto a higher plane when you're so busy fighting >>against desires and writing lots of wordy intellectual arguments and >>put-downs. >Tony: >I actually thought all these well read people had a head start on me!! Okay, put down some more people... do you feel better now? Smarter and superior? :>However it is the mind and getting above the mind through meditations burns up the samskaras of desire/aversion. No, you're just mistaken about that, Tony. I did say, "The only way you can work with a problem on a certain level is from a higher level." But when you get there, you've got to actually do the work... get busy and clear those blocks on the emotional plane. Just getting above that level doesn't automatically clear blocks - or burn up samskaras. No matter how high you go, you'll come back and find them still there, quite intact. But if you actually do the work, you'll come back and find them gone... you'll actually be different... those emotions, those blocks, will be gone! There's no substitute for doing the work. >Most of the comments on here are about the mind, some seem to forget the >whole process is getting above it and purifying the buddhi. You can't do anything about emotional or mental blocks by trying to purify the buddhic plane. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 , Dharma <deva@L...> wrote: > >>Bruce: > >>"I've got a head full of ideas > >> that are drivin' me insane!" > >>-- Bob Dylan, "Maggie's Farm" > >> > >>Hint: you cannot willfully > >>withdraw from either aversion > >>or desire (they are essentially > >>identical, btw) -- that is > >>itself an incident of desire! > >> :-) > > > >Tony: > >Absolutely wrong! It is elementary my dear Bruce. They only belong to the > >mind. If you were right there would never have been a yogi or a realised > >person. > > You are taking "withdraw" in another sense, Tony. > > (You say they belong to the mind. Actually, they are emotions and are part > of kama-manas, the emotional plane.) > > In meditation it's quite possible to withdraw from the emotions, in the > sense of moving your focus of consciousness to a higher plane. In doing > that, you do nothing to change or get rid of the emotions... you simply > move to where you don't notice them... because that isn't where you are, > see? > > But Bruce, I think, was answering you in the sense in which you were > talking... of coping with desire by pulling back from it, avoiding it, > squelching it in some way. And he's right... that kind of withdrawal > simply doesn't work. It doesn't change the desire that's there... and you > are getting hung up with another desire, which is to avoid desire. )) > > >>Dharma: > >>I know Ramana seemed to be free of problems with desire. And to you it > >>seems good to have no desires. But you can't get there by keeping up a > >>constant battle against desiring. As Bruce said, it's all the same thing. > >>If you have to battle against desiring, you've got a problem with desire. > >> > >>Ramana wasn't sitting around fighting against desiring. > >> > >>The only way you can work with a problem on a certain level is from a > >>higher level. Get up onto a higher plane, from where that stuff just won't > >>matter. > >> > >>But it's hard to get onto a higher plane when you're so busy fighting > >>against desires and writing lots of wordy intellectual arguments and > >>put-downs. > > >Tony: > >I actually thought all these well read people had a head start on me!! > > Okay, put down some more people... do you feel better now? Smarter and > superior? > > :>However it is the mind and getting above the mind through meditations > burns up the samskaras of desire/aversion. > > No, you're just mistaken about that, Tony. I did say, "The only way you > can work with a problem on a certain level is from a higher level." But > when you get there, you've got to actually do the work... get busy and > clear those blocks on the emotional plane. > > Just getting above that level doesn't automatically clear blocks - or burn > up samskaras. No matter how high you go, you'll come back and find them > still there, quite intact. > > But if you actually do the work, you'll come back and find them gone... > you'll actually be different... those emotions, those blocks, will be > gone! There's no substitute for doing the work. > > >Most of the comments on here are about the mind, some seem to forget the > >whole process is getting above it and purifying the buddhi. > > You can't do anything about emotional or mental blocks by trying to purify > the buddhic plane. > > Love, > Dharma Namaste Dharma, It is a little confusing, for you use the Theosophical Constructs like emotional plane etc. I prefer to use the yogic ones which are a little more appropos. All and any so called emotional blocks in the mind are still samskaras and all can be rendered infertile by a purified buddhi. Again the best thing from my experience is not to indulge desires and they weaken not strengthen. Otherwise how as an alcoholic would I have stopped drinking, doing other stuff, and eating meat etc? I still stick by original premise.....ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2001 Report Share Posted May 28, 2001 On 5/28/01 at 11:10 PM Tony O'Clery wrote: [...] ºOtherwise how as an alcoholic would I have stopped drinking, doing ºother stuff, and eating meat etc? [...] Perhaps someone reminded you of something similar as narrated in: http://www.se-tel.com/~sarah/rosewithin.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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