can I ever realize the Bliss of the Self ?

[Guest guest]

dear vicki....i want to thank you for your postings....i appreciate

the consistent effort and qaulity your your work and want you to know

that they are being read.....there is so much truth in this

diaglogue.....when i reflect on my own experience and that of many

close to me i know that the ego is the cause of suffering....yet,

recently i came to realize that the development of the ego is a

healthy stage in the arising consciousness of the increasingly subtle

mind....before the ego can be allowed to die it has to become healthy

enough and strong enough....compassionate enough to martyr itself to

a heart centered consciousness.....higher consciousness arise is a

continuous process of surrendering to every more compassionate

love....i am always brought back to the image of the Sacred Heart of

Jesus with his hands pulling open his chest and unveiling his tender

and suffering heart....as things are here in the west we cherish the

ego above all else....we pamper it with endless materialism (my car,

my book, my cds, my wife, my dog, my kids....), we treat it (modern

pyschology is obsessed with the ego) and we try to save it

(institutional religious salvation in any of it

manisfestations)....yet this cultural/specie worship of the ego is

probably a good indication that we nearing the edge of a quantum

shift into a higher state of consciousness....love is always arising

at whatever cost to the individual....the arise into one to become a

new one....^^~~~~~

 

further up and further in,

 

white wolfe

-

D : In this life beset of limitations , can I ever

realize the Bliss of the Self ?

 

M : That Bliss of the Self is always with you ,

and you will find it for yourself, if you seek it earnestly.

The cause of your misery is not in the life without;

it is in you as the ego. you impose limitations on yourself

and then make a vain struggle to transcend them; all

unhappiness is due to the ego ; with it comes all your trouble.

What does it avail you to attribute to the happenenings in life

the cause of misery which is really within you ?

What happiness can you get from things extraneous

to yourself ? When you get it , how long will it last ?

If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it ,

you would be free . If you accept it it will impose limitations

on you and throw into a vain struggle to transcend them.

That was how the thief sought to "ruin" king Janaka.

To be the Self that you really are is the only means to

realize the Bliss that is ever yours.

 

..........................................................................................

 

Know then that true Knowledge does not create a new Being for you;

it only removes your 'ignorant ignorance'.

Bliss is not added to your nature ; it is merely revealed as your true

and natural state , eternal and imperishable .

the only way to be rid of your grief is to know and be the Self.

How can this be unattainable ?

 

_________________________________

 

Maharshi's Gospel , Self-inquiry

_________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks for posting these beautiful and direct teachings of Sri Ramana,

Vicki. You have our gratitude.

 

Love

Harsha

 

"If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be free.

To be the Self that you really are is the only means to realize the Bliss

that is ever yours."

 

Sri Ramana

 

 

 

 

vicki [viorica]

 

D : In this life beset of limitations , can I ever

realize the Bliss of the Self ?

 

M : That Bliss of the Self is always with you ,

and you will find it for yourself, if you seek it earnestly.

The cause of your misery is not in the life without;

it is in you as the ego. you impose limitations on yourself

and then make a vain struggle to transcend them; all

unhappiness is due to the ego ; with it comes all your trouble.

What does it avail you to attribute to the happenenings in life

the cause of misery which is really within you ?

What happiness can you get from things extraneous

to yourself ? When you get it , how long will it last ?

 

If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it ,

you would be free . If you accept it it will impose limitations

on you and throw into a vain struggle to transcend them.

That was how the thief sought to "ruin" king Janaka.

 

To be the Self that you really are is the only means to

realize the Bliss that is ever yours.

 

.............................................................................

..............

 

Know then that true Knowledge does not create a new Being for you;

it only removes your 'ignorant ignorance'.

Bliss is not added to your nature ; it is merely revealed as your true

and natural state , eternal and imperishable .

the only way to be rid of your grief is to know and be the Self.

How can this be unattainable ?

 

_________________________________

 

Maharshi's Gospel , Self-inquiry

_________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki,

>Wolf:

> dear vicki....i want to thank you for your postings....i appreciate

>the consistent effort and qaulity your your work and want you to know

>that they are being read.....there is so much truth in this diaglogue.....

 

I want to add my thanks. I save almost all of your Ramana postings in

an email file. Each one has your handy subject line on it, so it's easy

for me to find the one I want to send to someone.

 

This is wonderful work you're doing... your posts will be sent out again

and again.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Wolf,

>when i reflect on my own experience and that of many close to me i know

>that the ego is the cause of suffering....

 

Try the words "ego image."

>yet, recently i came to realize that the development of the ego is a

>healthy stage in the arising consciousness of the increasingly subtle

>mind....

 

Yes, and necessary in growing up human. The development of the "I."

>before the ego can be allowed to die it has to become healthy enough and

>strong enough....compassionate enough to martyr itself to a heart

>centered consciousness.....

 

The ego or "I" has an image of itself... You have an image of what you

are... and it is that image that limits you. Right after Ramana mentioned

"the ego," he said, "you impose limitations on yourself and then make a

vain struggle to transcend them."

>higher consciousness arise is a continuous process of surrendering to

>every more compassionate love....

 

Real love opens up that limited image... bursts its seams. )

 

Look past the ego image... your image of what you are... see it as a mask

through which you look out at the world. Who is that "I" that is looking

out through the mask?

>Ramana:

>To be the Self that you really are is the only means to realize the Bliss

>that is ever yours.... Know then that true Knowledge does not create a

>new Being for you; it only removes your 'ignorant ignorance'.

-------------

 

I don't mean to contradict Ramana's teachings about the ego. We have seen

that the recorded statements do vary, according to who wrote them down and

who translated them, so I see no problem with looking for good ways to

understand what he said.

 

He sometimes uses "I" to indicate the individual consciousness or ego and

"I-I" to indicate the true Self. What we have with this individual

consciousness is a _separated_ consciousness, a boxed-in awareness of "I."

When we break through the separation, by whatever means... give up the

illusion of separation... see past the ego image... and know ourselves as

we really are, we are "I-I."

 

The "I" structure still remains, as a tool to be used in this life, a

garment to wear. It is our illusions about it that have disappeared or

"burnt up."

 

I do not think that our human condition was just the result of our past

errors, of a Fall of Man for which we should feel guilty. I think that it

is part of the development, the self-evolution of All That Is. The All is

doing something here, developing something... if we don't understand

everything about it in our limited human incarnations, that isn't

surprising.

 

The devas of the Findhorn Garden said:

> As your thoughts create order and unity, as they become more aligned with

>the whole, so will the forces in the garden become more aligned as well

>and what does not fit in will drop out. As you positively hold perfection

>for each plant in your mind so will it be brought into form.

> We are able to work most effectively when we have your creative

>thought with us, protecting and feeding each plant. It is your garden, you

>are the creators of it, and we only help as each seed or plant needs it.

>The overall result depends on your inner strength as put forth in the

>garden.

>snip<

>

>Just as you in your human evolution are now moving out of functioning as

>separate individuals or separate specialized groups, so the plant world is

>changing and the flora becoming less specialized and more typical of the

>whole Earth.

> Link with us whenever and wherever you see us. This is good for us

>and good for our relationship. Notice us, see us with new eyes, notice the

>way we grow. It will help you to imbibe the unique quality which we bring.

> All are part of the whole, but interest lies in the diversity of the

>parts. The philosophy and the plant life of a country are more related

>than you might think. Now that greater world unity is coming, let us not

>lose the essence of each unique contribution.

>snip<

>

>It is the fact of oneness which we would emphasize and repeat, because

>there are many of the one creation which you automatically reject with

>words like "vermin" or "weeds." These are obvious, but there are many more

>such rejections in your categories of "good" and ''bad' which will change

>as consciousness grows and expands. We are ever eager to mention this

>theme of unity to man, it being the immediate step for him to take.

> We would shout in words of fire that oneness is.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dharma:

> The "I" structure still remains, as a tool to be used in this life, a

garment to wear. It is our illusions about it that have disappeared or

"burnt up."

 

 

Very well said, thank you. I used to believe in the concept that the

I-structure would disappear immediately upon realization... now I understand

the futility of that. The I-structure serves active human life in

expression, just like the structure of a tree serves life to express itself

as tree. Once the sense of a separate self has fallen away, there is even an

opportunity for the life-force to refine its human I-structure.

Mira

[Guest guest]

, "Mirror" <mirror@u...> wrote:

> Dharma:

> > The "I" structure still remains, as a tool to be used in this

life, a

> garment to wear. It is our illusions about it that have disappeared

or

> "burnt up."

>

>

> Very well said, thank you. I used to believe in the concept that the

> I-structure would disappear immediately upon realization... now I

understand

> the futility of that. The I-structure serves active human life in

> expression, just like the structure of a tree serves life to express

itself

> as tree. Once the sense of a separate self has fallen away, there is

even an

> opportunity for the life-force to refine its human I-structure.

> Mira

 

Namaste Mira,

 

Surely the false little 'I' structure does fall away and all we are

left with is the I of the Mahat......ONS.....Tony

[Guest guest]

Dear Vicky,

Ramana:

> That Bliss of the Self is always with you

> Bliss is not added to your nature ;> it is merely revealed as your

true and natural state,> eternal and imperishable .

Again a Jewel

And so re-discoverable...

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsha,

 

You quoted Ramana:

> If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be

free.

 

And by the same token:

When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully, you ARE

free...

 

One bypasses self incrimination, illusive self deficiency, the fight

that strengthens the enemy, etc...

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

 

Wim Borsboom [aurasphere]

 

Dear Harsha,

 

You quoted Ramana:

> If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be

free.

 

And by the same token:

When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully, you ARE

free...

 

One bypasses self incrimination, illusive self deficiency, the fight

that strengthens the enemy, etc...

 

Love, Wim

_____________________________

Yes, beautifully put Sri Wimji. They are the same. Just different ways of

saying it.

 

It is a Wim Wim situation. Oh my god, I am sounding like ottoman!

 

Sahajman made me do it!

 

Love

Harsha

 

 

 

 

/join

 

 

 

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Tony:

> Surely the false little 'I' structure does fall away and all we are left

with is the I of the Mahat......ONS.....

 

Falls away to where Tony? And how is it different from 'the Mahat'...

The "I" is not two....

 

Mira

[Guest guest]

Harsha:

>> You quoted Ramana:

>> If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be

free.

 

Wim:

> And by the same token:

> When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully, you ARE free...

One bypasses self incrimination, illusive self deficiency, the fight that

strengthens the enemy, etc...

 

 

So true! Giving up the struggle with 'ego', reveals the peace, the love, as

it always was before the first concept arose that there must be such thing

as 'ego' different from what I already am...

 

Mira

[Guest guest]

Nisaragatta:

When the mind is quiet, we come to know ourselves as the pure

witness. We withdraw from the experience and its experiencer and

stand apart in prue awarness, which is between and beyond the two.

The personality, based on self-identification, on imagining oneself

to be something" 'I am this, I am that', continues, but only as part

of the ovjective world. Its identification with the witness snaps.

 

Komo Kasha

 

 

 

, "Mirror" <mirror@u...> wrote:

> Dharma:

> > The "I" structure still remains, as a tool to be used in this

life, a

> garment to wear. It is our illusions about it that have

disappeared or

> "burnt up."

>

>

> Very well said, thank you. I used to believe in the concept that the

> I-structure would disappear immediately upon realization... now I

understand

> the futility of that. The I-structure serves active human life in

> expression, just like the structure of a tree serves life to

express itself

> as tree. Once the sense of a separate self has fallen away, there

is even an

> opportunity for the life-force to refine its human I-structure.

> Mira

[Guest guest]

> Nisaragatta:

> When the mind is quiet, we come to know ourselves as the pure

> witness. We withdraw from the experience and its experiencer and

> stand apart in prue awarness, which is between and beyond the two.

> The personality, based on self-identification, on imagining oneself

> to be something" 'I am this, I am that', continues, but only as part

> of the ovjective world. Its identification with the witness snaps.

 

.... and then... there is a point where no witness exists apart from an

experience, where nothing can withdraw from or stand apart from anything....

a point where nothing is separable or identifiable as anything in particular

at all...

from here all is this and all is that

from here nothing is this and nothing is that

here I am

here I am not

here

nothing can be described

because the moment I start describing

all arises as

affirmation and negation

fullness and emptiness

witness and experience

somethingness and nothingness

here

even the word 'here'

is meaningless

 

 

Mira

[Guest guest]

Mira;

Are you talking from your experience or realization?

Alton

 

>

> ... and then... there is a point where no witness exists apart from

an

> experience, where nothing can withdraw from or stand apart from

anything....

> a point where nothing is separable or identifiable as anything in

particular

> at all...

> from here all is this and all is that

> from here nothing is this and nothing is that

> here I am

> here I am not

> here

> nothing can be described

> because the moment I start describing

> all arises as

> affirmation and negation

> fullness and emptiness

> witness and experience

> somethingness and nothingness

> here

> even the word 'here'

> is meaningless

>

>

> Mira

[Guest guest]

Hi Alton,

 

You wrote:

> Mira;

> Are you talking from your experience or realization?

> Alton

 

Dear Alton,

Just a little secret, so don't tell anybody.

This list (like the world at large, but shush OK? this list is a

group of realized beings helping each other realizing that.

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

Then when you post some high stuff, your should place IMO after your

post or quote someone who said it. That is why Nisaragadatta is my

teacher. He tells what he is about with no bull. The other Guru's

that I encountered are blatantly dishonest. Maybe not Ramana though.

When I realize I will say so and tell what it is about, like

Nisaragadatta did. That is the honest way.

 

Aloha,

Alton

 

, "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote:

> Hi Alton,

>

> You wrote:

> > Mira;

> > Are you talking from your experience or realization?

> > Alton

>

> Dear Alton,

> Just a little secret, so don't tell anybody.

> This list (like the world at large, but shush OK? this list is a

> group of realized beings helping each other realizing that.

>

> Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

, "Mirror" <mirror@u...> wrote:

> Tony:

> > Surely the false little 'I' structure does fall away and all we

are left

> with is the I of the Mahat......ONS.....>

>

> Falls away to where Tony? And how is it different from 'the

Mahat'...

> The "I" is not two....

>

> Mira

 

Namaste Mira,

 

That's right but it was your post....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

, "Mirror" <mirror@u...> wrote:

> Harsha:

> >> You quoted Ramana:

> >> If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would

be

> free.

>

> Wim:

> > And by the same token:

> > When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully, you ARE

free...

> One bypasses self incrimination, illusive self deficiency, the fight

that

> strengthens the enemy, etc...

>

>

> So true! Giving up the struggle with 'ego', reveals the peace, the

love, as

> it always was before the first concept arose that there must be such

thing

> as 'ego' different from what I already am...

>

> Mira

 

Namaste All,

 

However giving up the struggle with the ego doesn't always bring total

liberation. For if one is merged with energy then one has to wait

until pralaya to completely merge with Nirguna Brahman....ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear Alton,

 

Nisargadatta does not lard any of his writings with IMOs, does he?

 

You will not find many IMOs here either. This list is not a discussion

group where we argue the pros and cons of more or less valid or

effective approaches. There is an infinite amount of compassion and

understanding patience though.

So Alton, you are very welcome...

May you never leave...

This is a satsangh of realized beings helping each other to be reminded

of such. Hee hee. ;-)

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

I am here to make myself and others aware of their self-deceptions.

So you wont get a rubber stamp here.

 

"Nisargadatta does not lard any of his writings with IMOs, does he"?

 

He repeatedly states that he is talking from his own experiece and

asks if others are.

 

"This is a satsangh of realized beings"

 

In theory but not necessarily in practice.

 

Love,

Alton

 

 

, "Wim Borsboom" <aurasphere@h...> wrote:

> Dear Alton,

>

> Nisargadatta does not lard any of his writings with IMOs, does he?

>

> You will not find many IMOs here either. This list is not a

discussion

> group where we argue the pros and cons of more or less valid or

> effective approaches. There is an infinite amount of compassion and

> understanding patience though.

> So Alton, you are very welcome...

> May you never leave...

> This is a satsangh of realized beings helping each other to be

reminded

> of such. Hee hee. ;-)

>

> Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

Hi Mira,

>> The "I" structure still remains, as a tool to be used in this life, a

>garment to wear. It is our illusions about it that have disappeared or

>"burnt up."

>

>

>Very well said, thank you. I used to believe in the concept that the

>I-structure would disappear immediately upon realization... now I understand

>the futility of that. The I-structure serves active human life in

>expression, just like the structure of a tree serves life to express itself

>as tree. Once the sense of a separate self has fallen away, there is even an

>opportunity for the life-force to refine its human I-structure.

 

Beautifully said! Reminds me of the Findhorn devas. The pear-tree deva

said:

>To you I am a being of great beauty because you contact the reality of me:

>a being which is God, free, happy and expressing his perfect life. Yet

>that rather spindly tree growing in the garden is my expression. Of course

>you know that in blossom time the inner beauty is more apparent, and also

>the fruit is a form which is clearly unique to me. Nevertheless, you think

>this tree is but a limited expression of me.

> Come nearer and feel a oneness with the tree. Slip into its limbs and

>feel the same unity that the tree spirit feels with it. Feel how the

>spirit loves the tree, how it is the tree. We are one.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Wim,

>You quoted Ramana:

>> If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be

>free.

>

>And by the same token:

>When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully, you ARE

>free...

>

>One bypasses self incrimination, illusive self deficiency, the fight

>that strengthens the enemy, etc...

 

Yes!! Beautiful!

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

 

Wim wrote:

> > And by the same token:

> > When you accept the ego and set it aflame by loving fully,

> > you ARE free...

 

You wrote:

> However giving up the struggle with the ego doesn't always bring total

> liberation. For if one is merged with energy then one has to wait

> until pralaya to completely merge with Nirguna Brahman.

 

What?

You don't believe me, you think I sit here typing lies, Tony?

 

Love, Wim

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony and Alton,

 

Alton wrote:

> I am here to make myself and others

> aware of their self-deceptions.

> So you wont get a rubber stamp here.

 

Ah, goody goody, Tony, rejoice, your replacement has just arrived.

We waited for the day that you, Alton would come along !

Oh Alton, are you serious..., is this really happening to us?

Did not expect you to come, rubber stamp and all ?!

Do you get to use it lots? I bet not!

 

You are fun, you are hilarious.

(((((((((((-::::::::::-)))))))))))

Hope you stick around.

 

oh migosh osh kosh komo kasha posh gosh

 

Wim wrote:

> > "Nisargadatta does not lard any of his writings with IMOs, does he"?

 

Alton:

> He repeatedly states that he is talking from

> his own experiece and asks if others are.

 

And you are Nisaragaradaratara's envoy?

 

Alton, you tried to quote as follows:

> "This is a satsangh of realized beings"

 

Ah ah!

No no!

 

I wrote:

> > This is a satsangh of realized beings

> > helping each other to be

> > reminded of such. Hee hee. ;-)

 

Now Alton, :-) you better start out by reading and quoting properly or

we may have to dismiss your free services, rubber stamp and all...

however well intended.

 

(You misspelled Nisargadatta's name twice up to now, but then, I'm

sorry, that is nit-picking, and I am also sorry if I made you feel

self-conscious and trapped. We actually love poor spelling but we do

have problems with poor quoting.)

 

Now to play with words...

What is the sound of one rubber stamp stamping?

What is the sound of one rubber boot booting?

 

Giving you the boot? We promise you that we won't do it... so please do

stick around...

 

In some serious jest and hoping that you have a sense of humour, Alton.

Love you, Wim

[Guest guest]

Mira!

>> Nisaragatta:

>> When the mind is quiet, we come to know ourselves as the pure

>> witness. We withdraw from the experience and its experiencer and

>> stand apart in prue awarness, which is between and beyond the two.

>> The personality, based on self-identification, on imagining oneself

>> to be something" 'I am this, I am that', continues, but only as part

>> of the ovjective world. Its identification with the witness snaps.

>

>... and then... there is a point where no witness exists apart from an

>experience, where nothing can withdraw from or stand apart from anything....

>a point where nothing is separable or identifiable as anything in particular

>at all...

>from here all is this and all is that

>from here nothing is this and nothing is that

>here I am

>here I am not

>here

>nothing can be described

>because the moment I start describing

>all arises as

>affirmation and negation

>fullness and emptiness

>witness and experience

>somethingness and nothingness

>here

>even the word 'here'

>is meaningless

 

Yes! Beautiful!

 

I have a little trouble with the word "witness" myself... it seems like

another separative form of consciousness, i.e. "the one who..." But I

suspect many people mean something different by the word.

 

Love,

Dharma