Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Hi Alton or Komo, >>>Alton: >> > Mira; >> > Are you talking from your experience or realization? >> >> Wim: >> Just a little secret, so don't tell anybody. >> This list (like the world at large, but shush OK? this list is a >> group of realized beings helping each other realizing that. >Alton: >Then when you post some high stuff, your should place IMO after your >post or quote someone who said it. That is why Nisaragadatta is my >teacher. He tells what he is about with no bull. The other Guru's >that I encountered are blatantly dishonest. Maybe not Ramana though. >When I realize I will say so and tell what it is about, like >Nisaragadatta did. That is the honest way. I find nothing dishonest about Mira's posts. She is a poet, and I take it that in her poetry she speaks for herself and from her own experience. IMO means "in my opinion." Writing about the truth as perceived in personal experience is much different from giving an opinion. "Opinion" is intellectual/mental and is not a statement about something known. For instance, one would not say, "It is raining... in my opinion." Neither does "opinion" apply to poetry or to statements about personal experience. Certainly, when we quote someone else, we should say so. The exception to that is the case where a quote is so well known that no one needs to say where it came from. Unless attribution is made, you can generally take it that the writer is speaking for himself from his own experience. I for one would get pretty tired of seeing every post cluttered up with "IMO" or a statement "This post is from my own experience and is not taken from any other source." )) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 >I am here to make myself and others aware of their self-deceptions. Oh God, not another one! Well, thank God we have all been inoculated... Alton, you might find some other group more eager to be shown their short-comings and made over in your image. Would you settle for just being accepted and loved? I love you, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Wim! >In some serious jest and hoping that you have a sense of humour, Alton. He'd better!!! Yours is certainly going strong! ))))))))) LOL ))))))))))) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 dear brothers and sisters of the satsangh where do all of these self-annointed gurus get so much cheek....i am so busy walking my own path i do not have time or energy to tell anyone else how to walk theirs...."aware of their self-deceptions"....alton the more i practive the less i know about practice....the less i know about practice the more humble i become....self, no-self....no-self-deception...a long time ago when i still believed that there was a distinction between good and evil that was worth making and a side worth taking i wrote to myself.... "the heresies that men do leave are hated most by those they did deceive" .....twenty years later i find this aphorism to still be true....every time i think i know something i remind myself to wait until tomorrow...each new day i arise from zazen thinking that maybe today i am finally enlightened because i sure was fool to think i was enlightened yesterday....white wolfe is not teacher.....he is a student of life for as long as he his here......he feels blessed to be able to enjoy the good company of this wonderful satsangh......i embrace the buddha, the dharma and the sangha to be in you as they are to be in me....gassho...^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe > Dear Tony and Alton, > > Alton wrote: > > I am here to make myself and others > > aware of their self-deceptions. > > So you wont get a rubber stamp here. > > Ah, goody goody, Tony, rejoice, your replacement has just arrived. > We waited for the day that you, Alton would come along ! > Oh Alton, are you serious..., is this really happening to us? > Did not expect you to come, rubber stamp and all ?! > Do you get to use it lots? I bet not! > > You are fun, you are hilarious. > (((((((((((-::::::::::-))))))))))) > Hope you stick around. > > oh migosh osh kosh komo kasha posh gosh > > Wim wrote: > > > "Nisargadatta does not lard any of his writings with IMOs, does he"? > > Alton: > > He repeatedly states that he is talking from > > his own experiece and asks if others are. > > And you are Nisaragaradaratara's envoy? > > Alton, you tried to quote as follows: > > "This is a satsangh of realized beings" > > Ah ah! > No no! > > I wrote: > > > This is a satsangh of realized beings > > > helping each other to be > > > reminded of such. Hee hee. ;-) > > Now Alton, :-) you better start out by reading and quoting properly or > we may have to dismiss your free services, rubber stamp and all... > however well intended. > > (You misspelled Nisargadatta's name twice up to now, but then, I'm > sorry, that is nit-picking, and I am also sorry if I made you feel > self-conscious and trapped. We actually love poor spelling but we do > have problems with poor quoting.) > > Now to play with words... > What is the sound of one rubber stamp stamping? > What is the sound of one rubber boot booting? > > Giving you the boot? We promise you that we won't do it... so please do > stick around... > > In some serious jest and hoping that you have a sense of humour, Alton. > Love you, Wim > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 dear dharma.... 'the witness' is just a way of talking about a form of higher consciiousness....white wolfe is the witness of mark....he watches mark writing poetry to the beloved....mark is suffering the sweet pangs of love....and so watching mark, he is at peace and filled with bliss....but there is no white wolfe without mark....mark is more real than white wolfe....the more subtle my consciousness becomes in practive the closer i a appoach the translucent edge....yet the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it is all contingent upon smaller holons that are more real all the way down to quarks and bosons....when we slip into nothingness itself.....that is truly the death of the self.....what lies beyond is the unknown realms....much talk, much poetry, much metaphysics, much theological speculation....no consensus....but who cares....why worry about what lies beyond death when what lies beyond this moment is vastly interesting enough in and of itself......i am going to go check and see what is drifting on the wind.....hopefully tony will continue to play the court jester and keep us all dancing and entertaining each other....^^~~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe Re: Re: can I ever realize the Bliss of the Self ? > Mira! > > >> Nisaragatta: > >> When the mind is quiet, we come to know ourselves as the pure > >> witness. We withdraw from the experience and its experiencer and > >> stand apart in prue awarness, which is between and beyond the two. > >> The personality, based on self-identification, on imagining oneself > >> to be something" 'I am this, I am that', continues, but only as part > >> of the ovjective world. Its identification with the witness snaps. > > > >... and then... there is a point where no witness exists apart from an > >experience, where nothing can withdraw from or stand apart from anything.... > >a point where nothing is separable or identifiable as anything in particular > >at all... > >from here all is this and all is that > >from here nothing is this and nothing is that > >here I am > >here I am not > >here > >nothing can be described > >because the moment I start describing > >all arises as > >affirmation and negation > >fullness and emptiness > >witness and experience > >somethingness and nothingness > >here > >even the word 'here' > >is meaningless > > Yes! Beautiful! > > I have a little trouble with the word "witness" myself... it seems like > another separative form of consciousness, i.e. "the one who..." But I > suspect many people mean something different by the word. > > Love, > Dharma > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 brother and sisters.... my beloved mira almost always speaks from her experience and when she does not she is always careful to give proper credit....like white wolfe she insists she is not a teacher but a student herself....the only guru that is worth anything is the self.....spiritual teaching has to be verified empirically in the bone-yard of the meditation hall to be actualized or realized one student at a time....sometimes a spontaneous exchange between two individuals acts as a catalyst between one and another and this is sometime referred to as 'transmission'....this is the mystery of tantra and kundalini....in our experience of each other on our journey together, mira and i have found that non-dual consciousness ultimately requires reconciliation between the material or real world and the spiritual or conceptual world....harma talks and discussions like those here do little more that point the wanderer in the general direction that others have taken on their personal journey up the sacred mountain.....^^~~~~ further up and further in, white wolfe > Hi Alton or Komo, > > >>>Alton: > >> > Mira; > >> > Are you talking from your experience or realization? > >> > >> Wim: > >> Just a little secret, so don't tell anybody. > >> This list (like the world at large, but shush OK? this list is a > >> group of realized beings helping each other realizing that. > > >Alton: > >Then when you post some high stuff, your should place IMO after your > >post or quote someone who said it. That is why Nisaragadatta is my > >teacher. He tells what he is about with no bull. The other Guru's > >that I encountered are blatantly dishonest. Maybe not Ramana though. > >When I realize I will say so and tell what it is about, like > >Nisaragadatta did. That is the honest way. > > I find nothing dishonest about Mira's posts. She is a poet, and I take it > that in her poetry she speaks for herself and from her own experience. > > IMO means "in my opinion." Writing about the truth as perceived in > personal experience is much different from giving an opinion. "Opinion" is > intellectual/mental and is not a statement about something known. For > instance, one would not say, "It is raining... in my opinion." Neither > does "opinion" apply to poetry or to statements about personal experience. > > Certainly, when we quote someone else, we should say so. The exception to > that is the case where a quote is so well known that no one needs to say > where it came from. > > Unless attribution is made, you can generally take it that the writer is > speaking for himself from his own experience. I for one would get pretty > tired of seeing every post cluttered up with "IMO" or a statement "This > post is from my own experience and is not taken from any other source." )) > > Love, > Dharma > > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 the satsangh must be infected with a messianic virus....harsha, what is the remedy?....heading for the woods to meditate with the beloved until this one blows over....^^~~~~ fufi, white wolfe > >I am here to make myself and others aware of their self-deceptions. > > Oh God, not another one! > > Well, thank God we have all been inoculated... Alton, you might find some > other group more eager to be shown their short-comings and made over in > your image. > > Would you settle for just being accepted and loved? > > I love you, > Dharma > > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Tony: >>> Surely the false little 'I' structure does fall away and all we are left with is the I of the Mahat......ONS..... Mira: >> Falls away to where Tony? And how is it different from 'the Mahat'... The "I" is not two.... Tony: > That's right but it was your post....ONS...Tony. Right? Are you sure Tony? Why would I be right? Are you sure there Is a right and a wrong perspective in this? Flip, flop, flip, flop.... what a lovely coin this is.... Mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Tony: > However giving up the struggle with the ego doesn't always bring total > liberation. For if one is merged with energy then one has to wait > until pralaya to completely merge with Nirguna Brahman....ONS...Tony. If pralaya is a small village on the beach of Thailand... I might be inclined to wait :-) I would like to know if the merging with Nirguna Brahman is mandatory though. I am married and I don't want to get in trouble with my husband... Mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 On 6/3/01 at 12:39 PM Mirror wrote: ºTony: º> However giving up the struggle with the ego doesn't always bring total º> liberation. For if one is merged with energy then one has to wait º> until pralaya to completely merge with Nirguna Brahman....ONS...Tony. º ºIf pralaya is a small village on the beach of Thailand... I might be ºinclined to wait :-) ºI would like to know if the merging with Nirguna Brahman is mandatory ºthough. I am married and I don't want to get in trouble with my husband... º ºMira One of the villages here is called "Playa Paraiso" (Paradise Beach). It has merged with Nirguna Brahman already, hence that name And most of the friends visiting here agree... whether they are married or not, and merge their trouble with Nirguna Brahman to realize it was never "theirs" - to realize it was both imagination and mad_i_nation Joy and laughter, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Hi Wolf, >'the witness' is just a way of talking about a form of higher >consciiousness....white wolfe is the witness of mark....he watches mark >writing poetry to the beloved.... Yes, I do understand what it means. I put it badly... what I meant is that I have a problem with using that word "witness" for it. Maybe it comes from Heinlein... remember _Stranger in a Strange Land_? A "true witness" was a professional person trained to go into a totally objective mode, in order to be a completely reliable witness for all legal purposes... could even reproduce all conversation verbatim, accepted in a court as accurate. So a "witness" seems totally objective to me... but High Self is totally present in the moment. I like the stage metaphor better... easy to see this body/personality as an actor on the stage. And I am a method actor (Sandeep said once, "Aren't we all?")... I tend to get wrapped up in the part at times... have to stop and remind myself. ) >mark is suffering the sweet pangs of >love....and so watching mark, he is at peace and filled with bliss Isn't high self _always_ at peace and blissful? >....but >there is no white wolfe without mark I think I disagree on that one... Isn't "Mark" your personality of this life? And doesn't what you call "white wolfe" persist through many lives... carries the memories of many lives? >....mark is more real than white >wolfe More real??? Maybe you mean he seems more real in the outer, physical world? >....the more subtle my consciousness becomes in practive the closer i a >appoach the translucent edge....yet the ability to approach this edge >without slipping into it is all contingent upon smaller holons that are more >real all the way down to quarks and bosons.... I'm not clear on this picture you're drawing. I thought you were going to say that the more subtle your consciousness becomes, the more you draw near to - or become - white wolf. But you went straight to nothingness. Where does white wolfe fit in there? And BTW, if that edge you approach is the edge of "nothingness," why do you _want_ "the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it"? >when we slip into nothingness >itself.....that is truly the death of the self.....what lies beyond is the >unknown realms....much talk, much poetry, much metaphysics, much theological >speculation....no consensus.... If you are speaking of the nothingness that is Nirvana, highest samadhi, the Godhead, the All, then yes, there is consensus from those who have been there. There may appear to be no consensus because there is NO adequate way to express it or tell about it to those who haven't been there. It is beyond all symbols, all words... no expression in the terms of this universe can be adequate. But when one who knows it from experience reads what someone else has written about it, it is clear whether the writer has been there or is just talking. It rings true, or it doesn't. >but who cares....why worry about what lies >beyond death Are we talking about the death of the physical body? Well, we know what lies beyond that too, don't we? More of the same, but without a body and lower-plane life for a while. If you meditate and know how it is to be free of the body completely, then death won't be a big surprise for you. >when what lies beyond this moment is vastly interesting enough >in and of itself......i am going to go check and see what is drifting on the >wind.....hopefully tony will continue to play the court jester and keep us >all dancing and entertaining each other....^^~~~~~ I don't know... Wim seems to think that since we now have a replacement for him, he should feel free to move on to higher and better things. ) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Hi Wolf, >my beloved mira almost always speaks from her experience and when she does >not she is always careful to give proper credit....like white wolfe she >insists she is not a teacher but a student herself....the only guru that is >worth anything is the self. The best teacher is always your own high self, your inner guide, your spiritual guru. That's why the first thing I work on with my students is their contact with their own internal gurus, if they don't have it already. >....spiritual teaching has to be verified >empirically in the bone-yard of the meditation hall to be actualized or >realized one student at a time. Not sure what that means... but the words of someone like Ramana are valuable spiritual teaching, aren't they? >...sometimes a spontaneous exchange between >two individuals acts as a catalyst between one and another and this is >sometime referred to as 'transmission'....this is the mystery of tantra and >kundalini. This can also be done on purpose. Transmission of K. to another person is sometimes called giving Shaktipat. It's easy to do if the other person is ready, but very difficult if he isn't. And it can be done at a distance... space is an illusion, after all. >...in our experience of each other on our journey together, mira >and i have found that non-dual consciousness ultimately requires >reconciliation between the material or real world and the spiritual or >conceptual world....harma talks and discussions like those here do little >more that point the wanderer in the general direction that others have taken >on their personal journey up the sacred mountain.....^^~~~~ What can talk do but point? What can a teacher do but pass on some techniques... give some Shaktipat... and point? And just BE. Someone once said that the Buddha's method of teaching is BEing. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Dharma (to white wolfe): <snip> >>....but there is no white wolfe without mark> I think I disagree on that one... Isn't "Mark" your personality of this life? And doesn't what you call "white wolfe" persist through many lives... carries the memories of many lives? I don't see how that could be objectively true, (unless I believe it is)... This 'many lives' concept doesn't seem to make sense to me, at least not confined or attached to a separate entity. Life is a multitude of memories and imaginations, none of which belong to anyone 'in particular', since there is no such one in particular, unless..... I believe there is :-) >>....mark is more real than white wolfe> More real??? Maybe you mean he seems more real in the outer, physical world? As seen from here... there is original beingness. It wasn't even called Mark until a father put that name on a birthcertificate. Then one day, this original beingness called Mark, realized he was original beingness all the time, and decided to call this White Wolfe. The different names are fine, but have never affected this original beingness. In fact, it was merely because of this original beingness that these names were conceptualized, spoken and written, thus rendering the same amount of reality to both.>>....the more subtle my consciousness becomes in practice the closer i approach the translucent edge....yet the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it is all contingent upon smaller holons that are more real all the way down to quarks and bosons....> I'm not clear on this picture you're drawing. I thought you were going to say that the more subtle your consciousness becomes, the more you draw near to - or become - white wolf. But you went straight to nothingness. Where does white wolfe fit in there? :)And BTW, if that edge you approach is the edge of "nothingness," why do you _want_ "the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it"? Hey guys... I can't follow either of you. There 'seems' to be a fine line to walk. It is the imaginary fine line that separates somethingness from nothingness, manifest from unmanifest. It was this initial apparent difference that compelled me to investigate into the difference between real and unreal. (Of course, I wanted to know just the real, thinking that the unmanifest was 'the real thing', and all the rest - the manifest - was unreal illusion and not worthy of my energy). When I discovered the all-inclusiveness of my being, none of those concepts made sense any longer. The fine line is not really a line, there really is no edge separating one thing from the other, and there is no one walking it either; but that is the fun of 'walking the fine line' between somethingness and nothingness. >>when we slip into nothingness itself.....that is truly the death of the self.....what lies beyond is the unknown realms....much talk, much poetry, much metaphysics, much theologicalspeculation....no consensus....> If you are speaking of the nothingness that is Nirvana, highest samadhi, the Godhead, the All, then yes, there is consensus from those who have been there. There may appear to be no consensus because there is NO adequate way to express it or tell about it to those who haven't been there. It is beyond all symbols, all words... no expression in the terms of this universe can be adequate. But when one who knows it from experience reads what someone else has written about it, it is clear whether the writer has been there or is just talking. It rings true, or it doesn't. I agree with Dharma here. Beyond all expressions, there is only consensus. Where One is not Two, it cannot have a conflict with itself. (but since that seems to be very boring to the One... it creates (created) this whole Big Bang to have some entertainment with itself !! ;-) ) so now we are enjoying Tony and Wim, originally in consensus, finally with something to argue about! >>but who cares....why worry about what lies beyond death> Are we talking about the death of the physical body? Well, we know what lies beyond that too, don't we? More of the same, but without a body and lower-plane life for a while. If you meditate and know how it is to be free of the body completely, then death won't be a big surprise for you. >>when what lies beyond this moment is vastly interesting enough in and of itself......i am going to go check and see what is drifting on the wind.....hopefully tony will continue to play the court jester and keep us all dancing and entertaining each other....^^~~~~~> I don't know... Wim seems to think that since we now have a replacement for him, he should feel free to move on to higher and better things. ) Tony seems to think he is not ready for that... maybe he needs us ;-) with love, Mira ps: Dharma... do not despair... most of the time I don't have a clue what Mark means either... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 - Mirror Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:58 AM Re: Re: can I ever realize the Bliss of the Self ? Dharma (to white wolfe): <snip> >>....but there is no white wolfe without mark> I think I disagree on that one... Isn't "Mark" your personality of this life? And doesn't what you call "white wolfe" persist through many lives... carries the memories of many lives? I don't see how that could be objectively true, (unless I believe it is)... This 'many lives' concept doesn't seem to make sense to me, at least not confined or attached to a separate entity. Life is a multitude of memories and imaginations, none of which belong to anyone 'in particular', since there is no such one in particular, unless..... I believe there is :-) i am trying to talk about a very subtle shift in my erxistential consciousness that i am currently beginning to experience here....look aat from the purely physical realm this way....it took millions of years for human consciosness to evoolve to its current level.....since from our point of view here and now this process is geological we perceive 'enlightenment' as being a static state....the paedro of plato with his notion of 'universal forms' is a good place to start philosophically....yet enlightenment is not a static state....everything is in a constant state of flux....depending our ones point of view it is either evolving or devolving.....yet it remains that consciousness is arsising....hence the endless arguments between students about which teacher is enlightened or not....it seems to me that we are far incrementally beyond the enlightenment of the buddha at this time....the non-dual movement being a prime example....the idea is simple....as the body goes, so goes consciousness.....the first holon was a quark or a boson or something that is nothing.....then came protons and neutrons....then atoms....the molecules...then cells.....then life as we begin to know it.....somewhere along the way consciousness arose...somethings (holons have been mating to create or evolve into something new since the beginning) have been arising ever since.....white wolfe cannot exiist without mark because the consciousness that is mark depends on a body and a mind and a heart....is there universal consciousness.....perhaps....if any of had it.....we would not be here.....we are arising into it.....i often say it to mira this way....i am your poet and i am a liar....i do not love today as much as i will love you tomorrow.....^^~~~~~ >>....mark is more real than white wolfe> More real??? Maybe you mean he seems more real in the outer, physical world? As seen from here... there is original beingness. It wasn't even called Mark until a father put that name on a birthcertificate. Then one day, this original beingness called Mark, realized he was original beingness all the time, and decided to call this White Wolfe. The different names are fine, but have never affected this original beingness. In fact, it was merely because of this original beingness that these names were conceptualized, spoken and written, thus rendering the same amount of reality to both. original beingness is just one more mental concept that is good from a certain point of view and false from another....^^~~~~ >>....the more subtle my consciousness becomes in practice the closer i approach the translucent edge....yet the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it is all contingent upon smaller holons that are more real all the way down to quarks and bosons....> I'm not clear on this picture you're drawing. I thought you were going to say that the more subtle your consciousness becomes, the more you draw near to - or become - white wolf. But you went straight to nothingness. Where does white wolfe fit in there? :)And BTW, if that edge you approach is the edge of "nothingness," why do you _want_ "the ability to approach this edge without slipping into it"? Hey guys... I can't follow either of you. There 'seems' to be a fine line to walk. It is the imaginary fine line that separates somethingness from nothingness, manifest from unmanifest. It was this initial apparent difference that compelled me to investigate into the difference between real and unreal. (Of course, I wanted to know just the real, thinking that the unmanifest was 'the real thing', and all the rest - the manifest - was unreal illusion and not worthy of my energy). When I discovered the all-inclusiveness of my being, none of those concepts made sense any longer. The fine line is not really a line, there really is no edge separating one thing from the other, and there is no one walking it either; but that is the fun of 'walking the fine line' between somethingness and nothingness. the new phrase that i find that has arisen into my poetry is the translucent edge.....there is not a line at all....gradually matter dissapates into the the emptiness of infinitely expanding space.....the material universe is expanding at an increasinly alarming rate according to the most up to date theoretical and empricial physics....consciousness is becoming extremely expansive and translucent.....look at how fast our minds have to process data just to use this medium of the internet which is connecting us to each other right now....an aborignal mind could not even begin to process data as fast we are used to processing it.....^^~~~~ >>when we slip into nothingness itself.....that is truly the death of the self.....what lies beyond is the unknown realms....much talk, much poetry, much metaphysics, much theologicalspeculation....no consensus....> If you are speaking of the nothingness that is Nirvana, highest samadhi, the Godhead, the All, then yes, there is consensus from those who have been there. There may appear to be no consensus because there is NO adequate way to express it or tell about it to those who haven't been there. It is beyond all symbols, all words... no expression in the terms of this universe can be adequate. But when one who knows it from experience reads what someone else has written about it, it is clear whether the writer has been there or is just talking. It rings true, or it doesn't. I agree with Dharma here. Beyond all expressions, there is only consensus. Where One is not Two, it cannot have a conflict with itself. (but since that seems to be very boring to the One... it creates (created) this whole Big Bang to have some entertainment with itself !! ;-) ) so now we are enjoying Tony and Wim, originally in consensus, finally with something to argue about! out of one arises many, the many become one plus one.....a new messiah is always entering the universe....^^~~~~ >>but who cares....why worry about what lies beyond death> Are we talking about the death of the physical body? Well, we know what lies beyond that too, don't we? More of the same, but without a body and lower-plane life for a while. If you meditate and know how it is to be free of the body completely, then death won't be a big surprise for you. >>when what lies beyond this moment is vastly interesting enough in and of itself......i am going to go check and see what is drifting on the wind.....hopefully tony will continue to play the court jester and keep us all dancing and entertaining each other....^^~~~~~> I don't know... Wim seems to think that since we now have a replacement for him, he should feel free to move on to higher and better things. ) Tony seems to think he is not ready for that... maybe he needs us ;-) and we need tony.....^^~~~~~ with love, Mira ps: Dharma... do not despair... most of the time I don't have a clue what Mark means either... ;-) pps....neither does mark....white wolfe is always dragging him higher and higher into his beloved mira! /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 , "White Wolfe" <valemar@m...> wrote: > dear dharma.... Namaste All, I feel there is only one witness Saguna Brahman.....ONS...Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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